Kayakers in the Apostles

I’m sure most have heard about the tragic deaths in the Apostles over the weekend. If you need a link I’ll dig it up.

From what I know the family was battling 3-4’ waves on I believe was going to be a 5 mile crossing. We can all sit here and criticize the judgement til our face turns blue, but we all need to realize how important it is to be fully prepared when taking any vessel on the Great Lakes. That includes knowing your limits.

I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve been out there less than prepared in less than ideal conditions. I’ve made 40 mile runs in 4-6’ waves and not really proud of it.

I have a vhf radio with DSC. It’s also registered with the coast guard as required. I have flares. I have all the required equipment for the Great Lakes but for some reason it just doesn’t seem like enough. 60 degree water isn’t all that bad but drop below that and your chance of survival beyond a couple hours is slim. Not to mention anyone ever spotting you.

What’s the point? Prepare your rig and make sure you know how to use all your emergency gear. Make god damn sure it works. Be prepared to use it. Act like a true captain. Talk to your buddies (crew) about what to do if something happens. What are they supposed to do when you fall out? Does your boat start with the kill switch removed? Where are your flares?

If that family had a handheld marine vhf radio, they still be here today.

great post!… sad story.
should be out Friday as long as the forecast stays the same

rubberduck wrote:

great post!… sad story.
should be out Friday as long as the forecast stays the same

Thanks! I can’t stress enough, act like a captain on YOUR boat. Doesn’t matter if you’re 40 miles out on Superior or if you’re on the Rum river. You’re responsible for the lives on your rig.

biggill wrote:

I’m sure most have heard about the tragic deaths in the Apostles over the weekend. If you need a link I’ll dig it up.

From what I know the family was battling 3-4’ waves on I believe was going to be a 5 mile crossing. We can all sit here and criticize the judgement til our face turns blue, but we all need to realize how important it is to be fully prepared when taking any vessel on the Great Lakes. That includes knowing your limits.

I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve been out there less than prepared in less than ideal conditions. I’ve made 40 mile runs in 4-6’ waves and not really proud of it.

I have a vhf radio with DSC. It’s also registered with the coast guard as required. I have flares. I have all the required equipment for the Great Lakes but for some reason it just doesn’t seem like enough. 60 degree water isn’t all that bad but drop below that and your chance of survival beyond a couple hours is slim. Not to mention anyone ever spotting you.

What’s the point? Prepare your rig and make sure you know how to use all your emergency gear. Make god damn sure it works. Be prepared to use it. Act like a true captain. Talk to your buddies (crew) about what to do if something happens. What are they supposed to do when you fall out? Does your boat start with the kill switch removed? Where are your flares?

If that family had a handheld marine vhf radio, they still be here today.

Would you like to be my babysitter this week? Make sure my risk choices are OK with you?

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

Would you like to be my babysitter this week? Make sure my risk choices are OK with you?

Did you actually read the about the choices made by this family?

If you saw 5 people climb into a two person 13 1/2 foot kayak and attempt a 4 mile crossing on Lake Superior, would you NOT be concerned for their safety?

Would you not say something?

Are you so callous you would stand by and say “Oh well, their choice.”

Any word if this family had kayaked on Superior before or any prior experience? There seems to be a lot of things I can’t wrap my head around on this sad story. We marked 67 deg all over on the surface so in an ideal situation they should have been able to stay alive for a while.
We made it out between Madeline and Michigan last week and you are extremely exposed to the big water with no where to go. It doesn’t take much wind to change quickly.

There is little room for debate here.

There were children involved.

S.R.

Huntindave wrote:

Would you not say something?

On the internet after the fact… Nope.

Huntindave wrote:

Did you actually read the about the choices made by this family?

No

Huntindave wrote:

If you saw 5 people climb into a two person 13 1/2 foot kayak and attempt a 4 mile crossing on Lake Superior, would you NOT be concerned for their safety?

Words of caution followed by tolerance for their personal choices should they choose to proceed.

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

Would you like to be my babysitter this week? Make sure my risk choices are OK with you?

What the hell prompted this arrogant response?

If you feel there’s nothing to learn here than move on.

Before we start calling them crazy, kayaking the Apostle islands is VERY popular activity. There are outfitters all across the area with rentals and campgrounds on all but 3 of the islands. That being said, it can be dangerous in bad weather situations, just like kayaking anywhere.

About 10 years ago, I went out for my second trip in the Apostles in a kayak with a Venture Crew of the BSA. Our days paddle took off from Oak island, stopping at Raspberry and finishing the day on York. Once we got about halfway to York, the wind picked up and so did the waves…a few of us capsized, but had skirts on and managed to upright the kayaks. We ended up pulling the kayaks together and tying a tarp to paddles to make a sail to shore. Ended up in the harbor at little sand bay. The park ranger closed the visitor center and allowed us to stay there for the night and dry out our gear. Instead of heading back to York to finish the trip, we called it quits 3 days early and spent the time on Madeline island…

Sobering to hear about how my story COULD have ended…Prayers for the family. I can only imagine how that mother feels…dangit, I gotta stop cutting onions…

Steve Root wrote:

There is little room for debate here.

There were children involved.

S.R.

^^^^^^^ EXACTLY ^^^^^^^ Not much “personal choice” for the children involved.

Would you like to be my babysitter this week? Make sure my risk choices are OK with you?

Wow…someone got their panties in a bunch.

I’ve been thinking about this family on and off all week. When I think about how frantic the mother and father must have been to try and save their children with no real hope to change the outcome all I feel is incredible sadness. I can’t get to a place where I judge their decisions. Based on the story, the mother was separated from the rest of the family at some point. The father would have been the last to succumb to hypothermia and been forced to watch each of his children fade away before losing consciousness himself. There is no part of me that wants to judge this mother and father. I just wish things had turned out different and can’t help but think of how desperate I would be to save my own daughter if my family was in a similar situation.

This family has been in my prayers.

biggill wrote:

From what I know the family was battling 3-4’ waves on I believe was going to be a 5 mile crossing. We can all sit here and criticize the judgement til our face turns blue, but we all need to realize how important it is to be fully prepared when taking any vessel on the Great Lakes.

I’m sorry to speak ill of the dead, but there is a real opportunity to learn from this tragic incident.

There is a difference between being unprepared or under-prepared and being inexperienced to the point where a functioning adult will inherently understand they are too ignorant to make ANY competent decisions in a situation and should simply stay away from the situation entirely.

The decisions made by the two adults, in this case, were stupid to the point of being criminal. Two functioning adults should have been able to make FAR better decisions than this.

They took a 13-foot OPEN kayak, overloaded it with 5 people with no protection from hypothermia, and headed out into marginal conditions that quickly became unmanageable. They had no VHF or distress beacon and filed no paddle plan with anyone.

These are the mistakes of 2 people who were completely incompetent and had no business being in a kayak on a small pond much less loading up their 3 children and heading out onto Lake Superior. With the popularity of plastic kayaks, people now see these things as toys that turn any body of water into a children’s play pool.

There is a saying in aviation that applies equally to boating on any sizeable body of water:

Aviation (and boating) are not inherently dangerous. But they are completely unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect.

I hope the deaths of these children somehow save lives in the future by convincing amateurs to stay the hell off of Lake Superior in bathtub toys.

Grouse

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

I hope the deaths of these children somehow save lives in the future

Me too.

biggill wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:</div>
Would you like to be my babysitter this week? Make sure my risk choices are OK with you?

What the hell prompted this arrogant response?

If you feel there’s nothing to learn here than move on.

You, like me, take on a lot of risks outdoors… Especially when solo. We also invest time and money understanding how to prepare for all that can go wrong. We are probably considered experts in the things we enjoy that include risks.

We have undoubtedly taken plenty of risk and survived only to learn how to be safer in the future.

You and I would not introduce the same risk onto others that we might invite onto ourselves. Only with risk prevention measures would we, with extreme caution, invite others aboard those risks. You don’t get there without experience and you don’t get experience without failure. We’ve both done incredibly unsafe things in the past.

I will not endanger my child or others. I also educate myself as much as possible, within our knowledge, to keep others safe.

Then, there are those who live ignorant of major risks. Who do not pursue learning about measures to prevent that risk. Who endanger their children, knowingly or through ignorance.

My brother asked for my advice Monday, “am I crazy to get a small wheeler for my boy”… He is not wrong for being concerned… We grew up on much much bigger machines, made many mistakes taught us to be concerned offering the same risk to our children. Coaching and training and experience will be the only thing that keeps then safe. Yeah the smallest wheeler we drove wasn’t less than 400cc… And brother we would’ve rolled a 90cc too!!

Why did I lash with an arrogant response. Because we didn’t get here mistake free. You pointed that out yourself.

OMG I feel bad about this situation. I still haven’t read any articles but from the responses I gather everyone died. If the parents lived I sure hope they see jail for child endangerment.

I feel totally responsible for the positions I put people in. A week ago I was watching my buddies every step to make sure he didn’t get hurt. He wasn’t always on high alert and he needed to be where we were. It is dangerous country! Country I’ll gladly enjoy by myself… When I bring someone else along I feel 100% responsible for their safety and the education that leads to their safely. Why, because I know better and they may not yet.
All safety and emergency equipment I pack for me and him.

Now, should a soccer mom family choose to walk this same property…. They’re legally entitled to do just that with as little precautions necessary… Don’t think I’m going to be lenient of them endangering others. I also don’t feel it necessary to create laws on top of laws to help keep them folks from endangering themselves and others.

The original post just seemed soap box like and it rubbed me the wrong way.

I maybe understand now your only trying to shed light on the safety measures they should’ve taken to bring the family back to shore. That’s great. But this family wouldn’t even look at a boat weight capacity or occupancy sticker. Your won’t be reaching your target audience from ido….i.e. the next entirely ignorant family decision.

An experienced risk taker like yourself has knowledge miles above this family, I recognize that. So my conclusion is that the only way to protect that family from this situation is to prevent the situation through legal access to the risk. I believe in personal responsibility and being tolerant of other people’s choices. I don’t want more laws and loopholes to jump through to take risk. More restrictions on the outdoors I enjoy, especially the outdoors visited be few, because of their inherent dangers… Them outdoors are the most beautiful to me.

Peace

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

I maybe understand now your only trying to shed light on the safety measures they should’ve taken to bring the family back to shore.

Close. I’m not interested in standing on a soapbox to preach about what they did wrong.

biggill wrote:

We can all sit here and criticize the judgement til our face turns blue, but we all need to realize how important it is to be fully prepared when taking any vessel on the Great Lakes. That includes knowing your limits.

I only wanted to take this opportunity given to us to reiterate how important it is to be prepared when you venture out on the Great Lakes. Also, I see a lot of people that don’t fully understand the responsibilities that come with carrying passengers in their boat.

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

I feel totally responsible for the positions I put people in. A week ago I was watching my buddies every step to make sure he didn’t get hurt. He wasn’t always on high alert and he needed to be where we were. It is dangerous country! Country I’ll gladly enjoy by myself… When I bring someone else along I feel 100% responsible for their safety and the education that leads to their safely. Why, because I know better and they may not yet.
All safety and emergency equipment I pack for me and him.

All your thoughts mirror mine. Again, I had no interest in pointing out what they did wrong but I do feel it’s worth pointing out that the voyage that they attempted is very worthy of considering a handheld marine radio on a kayak. I honestly think that’s about the only thing to learn from them.

I didn’t think our views were too far apart.
I did approach it wrong by stepping on your toes!

As a kid I got to drive fourwheeler a lot. A comment my dad made sticks in my mind…”if you crash and die, I go to jail for child endangerment and likely lose the farm in the process”

My daughter has also driven wheeler and didn’t take her long to slow roll it. This under good supervision. My brother now asking if it is ok for him to get a wheeler…I cannot make that decision for him as it could possibly haunt him the rest of his life… It could also set his child up for an early learning curve behind the wheel and safer decisions when older. Or, could ruin his child’s life. I really don’t know what the right move is. Only what I would do.
Prevent exposure to risk or introduce risk at a tolerable pace. Regardless, boys will be boys on a wheeler.

My parents allowed me to grow up surrounded by risk on the farm. I’m lucky to have all fingers and toes and ability to walk. I’m also a much stronger person because of those risk opportunities… Only because they didn’t kill me.

I realize this is in no way the same as driving off a cliff with your kids in tow, which it seems these yakers pretty much accomplished. So sad the decision they made for their children. I can only assume they didn’t understand the risk.

But we do knowingly allow our children to take risk, much as we did becoming the people we are today.

Life is gray man. Some risks can only be navigated and not prevented.

When I’m navigating risk, if I come to the point that I realize I’m going to be dependent on someone else saving me (radio) I think real dam hard whether or not I want to rely on that! I would only invite someone else on that same risk platform if they fully understood the implications. That person is never a child!!

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

I realize this is in no way the same as driving off a cliff with your kids in tow, which it seems these yakers pretty much accomplished. So sad the decision they made for their children. I can only assume they didn’t understand the risk.

But we do knowingly allow our children to take risk, much as we did becoming the people we are today.

Life is gray man. Some risks can only be navigated and not prevented.

When I’m navigating risk, if I come to the point that I realize I’m going to be dependent on someone else saving me (radio) I think real dam hard whether or not I want to rely on that! I would only invite someone else on that same risk platform if they fully understood the implications. That person is never a child!!

The funny thing is we have the same profession. We share the same job title. One of the largest parts of our job is managing risk. You can remove some risks completely. You can manage other risks to the point you can assume that you will get a good product at tge expected profit. Then there’s the unknown risks. How many “don’t do’s” can you put into a process before it becomes ineffective?

You have to be a firm believer in training, experience and engineered risk management to do our job.

Training and experience is what this is about. I’ll assume they didn’t realize the risks. I didn’t realize the risks of navigating 40 miles head on in 4-6’ waves. I managed the situation by taking it slow. What I didn’t know is that my marine radio has a function that will send my gps coordinates to the coast guard at the press of a button (Thanks BK !) what I didn’t know is that simply hooking it up to my chartplotter it wasn’t going to work (thanks BK !).

We can learn most of what we need by trial and error, I get it. The point is that I also try to learn as much as I can from others with experience so I can understand risks that I was previously unaware of.

The news report I heard said that this family had spent a lot of time in that area vacationing over the years. Whether they kayaked or not is a mystery to me but is moot.

Biggill….GREAT points regarding the lake. I too know fast it can turn from glass to an a$$ and I guess that was part of the problem.

I can’t help but feel that all these rental places on the lake are a problem too. These places want to make a buck and aren’t necessarily very concerned about renter’s skill levels. When a forecast calls for storms, they should have to stop renting. I don’t give a rip how skilled anyone thinks they are, Lake Superior is not the lake to prove your paddling skills, or to be caught do to lack of those skills. Kayaks and canoes are not meant for that lake’s ugly potential. The news didn’t mention whether the kayak this family used was a rental or a personal craft, but nothing can be taken back so again its moot.

Even with very warm surface temps, Lake Superior’s icy cold water underneath can be brought up in a blink with waves in the 4-6 foot. This chills the air immediately off the water so hypothermia is a super big issue when the waves get up. The Mother will certainly need a lot of prayers after having her whole family succumb to hypothermia. She has my prayers as do those who died here. Its a shame but this was preventable.