Is this the new "norm"?

All,
Has everyone been noticing how the Miss will fluctuate wildly nowadays with even the smallest of rain falls? I have lived and fished on Pool 4 my entire life. During my younger days in the 60’s and 70’s, I don’t remember it jumping up with every stinking rain fall. It has to be due to the fact that we have so many more impervious areas, like parking lots, buildings, shopping malls, roads and even farmers installing drain tiles to drain away the wetlands for crops. It’s just too easy for cities and municipalities to send it down the storm sewers. With the Minnesota, Miss and St Croix all running thru Red Wing, it’s no wonder. I know there’s not much we can do about it but am I correct?
There doesn’t seem to be a stable pool level any more.

Not looking to pick a fight, just trying to understand it.

Thoughts? Comments?
Don

Very simple. When you pave and concrete the roads and install drain tiles in the fields the water has to go somewhere.

Dutchboy wrote:

Very simple. When you pave and concrete the roads and install drain tiles in the fields the water has to go somewhere.

Well not really. Water retention ponds are in every single residential and commercial development. They are designed to reduce flooding. Something that wasn’t seen 30-40 years ago.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/info.wesslerengineering.com/blog/stormwater-basins-detention-retention-ponds%3fhs_amp=true

You can’t just drain developed land into a river.

biggill wrote:

You can’t just drain developed land into a river.

So where is it all coming from?

Most likely related to farmers and the insane amount of drain tile killing the wetlands that used to be natural retention ponds.

slab-hunter wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>biggill wrote:</div>
You can’t just drain developed land into a river.

So where is it all coming from?

The sky.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.mprnews.org/story/updraft/2019/01/minnesota-smashes-all-time-state-precipitation-record-in-2018/

I’m not in your area but we have retention ponds in our area full of water that I’ve never seen standing water in before. All the ground is saturated, paved or not. Now that this has gotten out of the way, another drought will start next year.

I agree, I think its mostly due to an increase in drain tiling in agricultural areas. The “land stewards” want that water off their crop land as soon as possible. It obviously been raining a lot lately too, which aint helping.

Might have something to do with it still being spring.

biggill wrote:

You can’t just drain developed land into a river.

Wrong. There’s a storm sewer right on our curb, the outlet of which goes directly into Cascade Creek right behind our house. Rochester’s Apache Mall has a couple hundred acres of black top, all of which drain directly into the Zumbro River. Most all of Mayo’s parking facilities [ramps] are cleaned on a regular basis and the foamy water is discharged right into Cascade Creek or one of the branches of the Zumbro River…..I know because I get to watch the foamy mess on the Creek immediately behind our house. Those retention ponds are just a “feel good” addition to developments and in reality do little.

As for tiling…..point your fingers toward corporate farms, not the small farmer.

Thanks Wade for all your knowledge and insight. If I had a few hundred thou sitting around to put more tile in I might actually have my corn planted. As it is every day after May 10th I’m loosing yield potential for not being able to plant. It’s pretty easy to figure out if it rains more than the sun shines the waters going to rise.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>biggill wrote:</div>
You can’t just drain developed land into a river.

Wrong. There’s a storm sewer right on our curb, the outlet of which goes directly into Cascade Creek right behind our house. Rochester’s Apache Mall has a couple hundred acres of black top, all of which drain directly into the Zumbro River. Most all of Mayo’s parking facilities [ramps] are cleaned on a regular basis and the foamy water is discharged right into Cascade Creek or one of the branches of the Zumbro River…..I know because I get to watch the foamy mess on the Creek immediately behind our house. Those retention ponds are just a “feel good” addition to developments and in reality do little.

Name me a development built in the last 30 years that doesn’t have one. I even said these were nonexistent before the last 30-40 years.

biggill wrote:

Something that wasn’t seen 30-40 years ago.

Also remember, that some areas or cities weren’t planned on being developed and the storm sewers were not sized accordingly. Then, all of a sudden an area gets developed doesn’t mean the storm sewers were sized for it and that is where the retention ponds come in, even if you’re next to a river. I am in Eau Claire with two rivers and some of our storm sewers are undersized for this exact reason and will have to be upsized in the future.

biggill wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tom Sawvell wrote:</div>

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>biggill wrote:</div>
You can’t just drain developed land into a river.

Wrong. There’s a storm sewer right on our curb, the outlet of which goes directly into Cascade Creek right behind our house. Rochester’s Apache Mall has a couple hundred acres of black top, all of which drain directly into the Zumbro River. Most all of Mayo’s parking facilities [ramps] are cleaned on a regular basis and the foamy water is discharged right into Cascade Creek or one of the branches of the Zumbro River…..I know because I get to watch the foamy mess on the Creek immediately behind our house. Those retention ponds are just a “feel good” addition to developments and in reality do little.

Name me a development built in the last 30 years that doesn’t have one. I even said these were nonexistent before the last 30-40 years.

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>biggill wrote:</div>
Something that wasn’t seen 30-40 years ago.

Nobody said that today’s developments don’t include a retention system. In large part they don’t do much good. Its the storm sewers that discharge in rivers and streams I’m commenting in regard to your comment that you can’t discharge run-off from developed property into rivers. Its happens all the time.

Beavers.

Big, wonderful, hairy, beavers.

The whole nation use to be a retention pond with the handiwork of those lil fellas. Any creek back when would have hundreds of small reservoirs. The land and game could easily withstand droughts and surplus. Just imagine the waterfowl migrations.

Few hundred years later and after raping our lands of this creature while clothing the entire world for dang near a century, we have what we have.

Farming is the problem, and it’s ALL our problem.

51million acres of land in MN

26mil is farms

2.6mil water

10.6mil wetlands

4mil in state forests and parks

5.5mil in national forests

Twin cities area 5.2mil

St.cloud 26k

Duluth 58k

Rochester 24k

Farming is only the problem if you don’t like eating.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

Its happens all the time.

My point is that you can’t build a development today that dumps directly into a water source. So the notion that farmland and developments are the cause of wild river fluctuations in recent years is without any evidence.

However, their is indisputable data showing much higher than normal rainfall in recent years.

Dutchboy wrote:

Farming is only the problem if you don’t like eating.

Yup, that’s why its ALL our problem as stated.

Don’t think the average American diet is gonna change drastically anytime soon. Cola and Cheetos are just too dam delicious.

biggill wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Tom Sawvell wrote:</div>
Its happens all the time.

My point is that you can’t build a development today that dumps directly into a water source. So the notion that farmland and developments are the cause of wild river fluctuations in recent years is without any evidence.

However, their is indisputable data showing much higher than normal rainfall in recent years.

Farmers drain tile directly into creeks, streams and rivers more so now than ever before. I doubt it’s entirely to blame but it isn’t helping any. Especially for wildlife habitat.

There’s not one reason, rather a culmination of factors:

-more precipitation in recent years

-a lot of our total precipitation is coming in more extreme events (2+” rapid rainfalls)

-agricultural land is drained quicker with drain tiling and all that water is running off very fast (see MN River after a rainstorm)

-urban development funnels runoff to specific areas very rapidly. Concrete and asphalt cover more of the Midwest with every passing year

Is this any one person or industry’s fault? No. Is it completely avoidable? No. Is there something more that can be done to slow the runoff? Possibly.

Buffer strip laws in agriculture and limiting the acreage in certain areas for drain tiling based on proximity to watersheds and topography can only help. Changing requirements for development projects near watersheds regarding runoff and ground cover would also help. Working together and looking at sedimentation and drastic river changes without looking to lay blame on any specific group is likely the best first step. Unfortunately the river is not nearly the emphasis for legislators or the general public that the thousands of lakes across the state are. IDO members who see the river’s changes or fish it regularly are a minority amongst the state’s population.

Angler II wrote:

Farmers drain tile directly into creeks, streams and rivers more so now than ever before.

Where is the source for this?

biggill wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Angler II wrote:</div>
Farmers drain tile directly into creeks, streams and rivers more so now than ever before.

Where is the source for this?

My eyeballs.

Observational gut feeling. Got it.

I would believe his “observational gut feeling” as you call it over any numbers you think you can dig up.

Common sense is a real thing.

I’m on the missouri river system 90 miles below the lowest dam/ Gavins point. The principal reason for the 6 dams on the river being built was flood control and the taming of a volatile river system that would wipe out spring planting and farm grounds due to the spring rains and mountain snow pack melt into the Montana region.
I have had a cabin on the river for the last 21 years, and have never seen more historic flooding in those years.Twice completely wiping it out, and other years not usable at all. We also own river bottom farm ground that has not ever had water on it other than the massive flood of 1952 prior to all the dam structures place. Now recently more than a few times it has been covered by up to 3-4ft. The special interest groups have lobbied congress in the last 20 yrs to change the top priority of the corp of engineers dam system, to cater to wildlife( least terns/piping plover and sturgeon)- followed by recreation/commerce(barge travel), flood control is at the bottom of the 5 critical priorities due to special interests and lobbyists supporting the industries. I’m not trying to make any political statements either way, i’m just saying you may have the same type of situation going on in the Mississippi valley due to some of the priority changes.

ara wrote:

The special interest groups have lobbied congress in the last 20 yrs to change the top priority of the corp of engineers dam system, to cater to wildlife( least terns/piping plover and sturgeon)- followed by recreation/commerce(barge travel), flood control is at the bottom of the 5 critical priorities due to special interests and lobbyists supporting the industries

So the sturgeon industry is so strong they lobby federal government for locks control but we can’t even use two lines in MN?

Dam.

Pun intended.

GET OFF MY LAWN!

mplspug wrote:

GET OFF MY LAWN!

LOL

Without getting too far in the weeds, I believe the rapid fluctuations we’ve experienced the last few years is the new norm. There’s a lot of reasons why and changing one, or even several variables will not easily fix it.

I know Missouri had some substantial flooding earlier this spring. Is it a case where they’re controlling the amount of water release on the Mississippi? The St. Croix has been abnormally high for a pretty extended period. I would have expected that water to have run its course by now. I’m wondering if we’re seeing a controlled release event due to conditions that were experienced further south. Just an idea…

tegg wrote:

I know Missouri had some substantial flooding earlier this spring. Is it a case where they’re controlling the amount of water release on the Mississippi? The St. Croix has been abnormally high for a pretty extended period. I would have expected that water to have run its course by now. I’m wondering if we’re seeing a controlled release event due to conditions that were experienced further south. Just an idea…

I’d be curious about this too as it seems like they’re taking pool 2 down extremely slowly as well. The river gauge dowtown St. Paul has come down a lot, not even in minor flood stage. But upstream it still seems like things are very flooded. Hidden Falls has been closed going on 2 full months now.