Is it allowed?

It doesn’t seem culturally acceptable to me to not allow crazy old men to express their opinions on a completely divergent subject during a discussion on outdoor sports. Even at a tender young age some old fogie would be telling us about the corruptions of Oliver North, or the righteousness of Barbara Bush’s war on drugs while trolling a Lazy Ike for some pike or the occasional walleye, or as they show us how to remove a hook from our thumb. It was up to us as children to determine if they were full of crap, and we did. It is part of the fabric of sportsman’s tradition to be told something and decide if we want to ignore it or not.

Wasn’t it Nancy Reagan ? Just say NO

big_g wrote:

Wasn’t it Nancy Reagan ? Just say NO

naw.. that’s my wife that says that!

If only our country had the same sympathy for kids getting gunned downed as they do wealthy CEOs of huge companies.

T’s and P’s arent getting us anywhere.

We’re the only country that has school shootings of this scale in this frequency and severity.

Gitchi Gummi wrote:

If only our country had the same sympathy for kids getting gunned downed as they do wealthy CEOs of huge companies.

T’s and P’s arent getting us anywhere.

We’re the only country that has school shootings of this scale in this frequency and severity.

It’s reported nearly 60 million girls are sexually assaulted each year at school globally and yet all you hear is crickets. Not saying that school shoots are not a crisis, but there are so many victims of so many different school related crimes that never get mentioned. We have a much larger issue in society at so many levels.

I don’t have individual country statistics, but globally per WHO, 193,000 child homicides happen per year making it one of the deadliest causes for kids 12-17. I would hate to be a kid today in this world

Randy Wieland wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gitchi Gummi wrote:</div>
If only our country had the same sympathy for kids getting gunned downed as they do wealthy CEOs of huge companies.

T’s and P’s arent getting us anywhere.

We’re the only country that has school shootings of this scale in this frequency and severity.

It’s reported nearly 60 million girls are sexually assaulted each year at school globally and yet all you hear is crickets. Not saying that school shoots are not a crisis, but there are so many victims of so many different school related crimes that never get mentioned. We have a much larger issue in society at so many levels.

I don’t have individual country statistics, but globally per WHO, 193,000 child homicides happen per year making it one of the deadliest causes for kids 12-17. I would hate to be a kid today in this world

“School related crimes” is a misleading phrase. I’m not calling it incorrect, but just misleading. Most of the crimes that take place in schools (shootings, assaults, thefts, etc) are a product of what is going on in that person’s life outside of school. The school becomes the giant mixing bowl of all these different kids from the most affluent to the ones who have criminal backgrounds, no home life, and so on making it a hotbed for issues. People have fled the profession due to the BS that has been lumped in that’s far beyond “teaching.”

The average student spends about 1200 hours in school per year. That’s approximately 13% of their time. The other 87% is where society is blatantly failing today’s youth. Schools were never designed to be any child’s counselor, faith formation, family support system, detention center, main source of nutrition, or medical provider. Schools are incredibly imperfect, but most of the time I’ve spent in them has left me both impressed and humbled by all they endure. Schools cannot fix today’s societal issues, nor were they designed to.

I agree. Wife’s been in the school district for about 22yrs, daughter in 6th yr, and nieces are teachers. Absolutely disgusting how pathetic many parents are. False accusations, lazy, non committed, threatening, ……. And these are the people that are supposed to be raising their kids. Thank god when one of these kids have a few exceptional teachers because that’s their only hope.

I have mostly different political and social opinions vs the majority on this site. I used to be of the opinion that it should only be outdoors related content. At this point I don’t care one way or the other. I don’t have a lot of conservative leaning friends or family in real life so I actually appreciate reading other perspectives from people who at least care about some of the same stuff that I do in terms of outdoor resources.

When you’re the minority it helps you think more critically about your own opinions and why you believe in them. You learn to pick your spots and avoid situations where you know for certain you’re not going to find an open-minded conversation… this thread topic would be a prime example. This is not meant as a criticism but I know well enough that 99% of folks here aren’t open to ANY conversation about limiting anything 2A or 2A-related. That used to bug me and it just doesn’t anymore. The forum is useful to me in other ways and that’s OK.

dirtywater wrote:

When you’re the minority it helps you think more critically about your own opinions and why you believe in them. You learn to pick your spots and avoid situations where you know for certain you’re not going to find an open-minded conversation… this thread topic would be a prime example. This is not meant as a criticism but I know well enough that 99% of folks here aren’t open to ANY conversation about limiting anything 2A or 2A-related.

well said. I agree whole heartedly. The number of school shootings in the US is astronomical compared to any other country in the world and it is embarrassing. It’s not even close.

Other countries deal with the same issues at home, bad parents/parenting, mental health, poverty, depression, etc. Its glaringly obvious to see – the main difference between the US and other countries is access to firearms. It’s really that simple.

Not criticism either, but if you ignore mental health, upbringing and blame an inanimate object… your probably going down the wrong path.

As far as T & P, what is the effect of it ? What would the number of school shootings be without T & P ? I think if more people gave any thoughts about anything, then we could start to honestly address it. One more gun law will not fix our youths mental illness.

(so you are saying all these other countries have mentally ill kids too, but they don’t have guns so they just behave ?)

the main difference between the US and other countries is access to firearms. It’s really that simple.

People in the US have always had access to firearms. If anything I’d say that access is harder today than at any other point. When I was young if I wanted access to a gun I would simply have to open most any unlocked car door or house ( this was mostly the norm when I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s ). I’m not sure when NIC background checks began but I believe it was not till the mid 90’s. Prior to that anyone could walk into almost any hardware store and buy a gun and walk out with it the same day. We don’t need a bunch of new gun laws, we need enforcement of the current ones. Simply giving false Info. on the NIC background check is a crime and most likely a felony. Yet a lot of people do so and almost none of them are charged with a crime much less be prosecuted for doing so. More laws without enforcement of those laws is simply not the answer.

if its not access to firearms, why are school shootings so much of a problem for the US but not anywhere else?

I would say upbringing. Single parents… neglected early and often. Not taught right from wrong, failed by so many.. it becomes too much and overwhelms their young souls.

Gitchi Gummi wrote:

if its not access to firearms, why are school shootings so much of a problem for the US but not anywhere else?

How about if it is access to firearms, why doesn’t Switzerland have the same issue as the US? And why didn’t the problem exist in the US prior to the 90’s?

Gitchi Gummi wrote:

if its not access to firearms, why are school shootings so much of a problem for the US but not anywhere else?

If its a access to firearms issue, why is it a fairly recent problem while access to firearms has been available for a really LONG time.

^It isn’t any “one thing.” I attribute what is going on to a multitude of societal changes and stances. I would HATE to be under the age of 18 in today’s world. I’ll openly admit these kids face completely different challenges than ever before. Many of us pile on and say kids today have it “easy.” Sure, they aren’t forced to do some of the physical labor of previous generations, don’t have the same consequences, or maybe aren’t trusted with the same responsibilities…but more societal issues are trickling onto their plates than ever before.

Random challenges facing kids that my generation rarely dealt with:

-More than half of children live in split families (which is none of their faults, rather their parents’)

-53% of 11 year olds have smartphones in the United States; and almost all kids older have them

-Increased access to drugs/chemicals (I could get a joint or beer whenever as an adolescent if I tried… but the pills, vaping, gummies, and so on are just another layer)

-Social Media has given kids unfiltered access to crap in the world (Tik Tok, Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, etc)

-14 million kids in the United States are food insecure

-Increase of “confusing” social issues compared to previous generations (gender debates, LGBTQ stuff)

-Politics and the 2 party system have created a culture of anger and resentment that’s the most severe it’s ever been in my lifetime

BigWerm wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gitchi Gummi wrote:</div>
if its not access to firearms, why are school shootings so much of a problem for the US but not anywhere else?

How about if it is access to firearms, why doesn’t Switzerland have the same issue as the US? And why didn’t the problem exist in the US prior to the 90’s?

I am sure this will be an echo to most people here. I had access to firearms my whole life. Just about every one of my friends houses were the same way. Our parents and thiers would let us grab the shotgun anytime we wanted and use some of their shells. We never had this problem when we were young (80’s-90’s) I guess I will stand by the idea that the guns are not the problem. Blaming the gun is just an excuse.

I really dont know why this exist now. Wish we did! I am sure there are multiple reasons that are not similar to eachother. I just know it is not the guns that are to blame. Thats all. We have some way bigger issues that need to be in the spotlight and I have no idea how to identify and correct them.

Dont think most kids had access to the kind of firearms they have access to today. You couldnt hurt the same amount of people with your grandpas Rem 870 as his AR of today. Or even the pistols people have gun safes full of.

As far as the firearm access debate goes, there’s a difference between families owning/using firearms and children having unfiltered access to them.

As a child I could open the decorative gun cabinet and pull out anything in there in my house. Rules stated I had to ask permission, but COULD have grabbed anything without my dad knowing and got away with it in most instances. That was generally a norm for my generation and most families had similar situations. However, times change and norms evolve over time too.

I own plenty of firearms and plan to continue to raise my children in ways that allow me to trust them – but I will NOT put them in the same position I was. As much as I want to raise them in the same way I was raised I won’t deny that is impossible due to technological and societal changes. Their challenges will be different than mine – and I will choose to play it safe. My firearms remain locked up in 2 gun safes and nobody in the world outside myself and my wife know the combination. When responsibility is demonstrated and my kids reach the proper age of psychological development they will be permitted to use firearms with permission, training, and supervision. They will never have unfiltered access though – plain and simple.

I support prosecuting parents to the fullest extent of the law if they knowingly give unfiltered firearm access to their children and a tragedy takes place.

Most school shootings are targeted victims… I am thinking grandpas 870 with 5 rounds would have done the job back in the day. Again…mental illness…. its not the gun.

The deterioration of the family home is where it starts. Kids need both parents and especially a father figure to depend on.

Add in social media and too many kids feel like outcasts.

buckybadger wrote:

Politics and the 2 party system have created a culture of anger and resentment that’s the most severe it’s ever been in my lifetime

This point effects so many different aspects in America right now. A good example is as soon as posts like this get political, disagreements ensue and the thread gets locked.

big_g wrote:

Again…mental illness…. its not the gun.

Can you give us a little and not blame mental illness for 100% of the problem? Could it be that guns, just maybe are to blame a little bit? I think realizing it is a number of problems(not just defend the gun) would possibly help get somewhere with this on-going problem.

lindyrig79 wrote:

The deterioration of the family home is where it starts. Kids need both parents and especially a father figure to depend on.

Add in social media and too many kids feel like outcasts.

If thats the case my whole generation would have been out popping shots. By the 80’s 50% of all marriages ended in divorce. 1980 was the highest divorce rate year ever recorded in the United States. My Parents got divorced at least once and almost a second time before they realized how expensive it was to be a single parent.

lindyrig79 wrote:

Add in social media and too many kids feel like outcasts.

I saw this personally with a young family member get bullied on social media. It ended OK but I am not sure of the long term affects with this kid. We are all pretty thick skinned here, and I might get blasted but there is forms of online bullying that go on with this site.

These shootings would likely go away or at the very least be far fewer if the kids would just have a good old fashioned fight at the bike rack. That’s how disputes were settled in my day. Almost all of us had shotguns in our vehicles on school grounds and those could have been used to settle it but they never were. Fist fight and problem solved.

BigWerm wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gitchi Gummi wrote:</div>
if its not access to firearms, why are school shootings so much of a problem for the US but not anywhere else?

How about if it is access to firearms, why doesn’t Switzerland have the same issue as the US? And why didn’t the problem exist in the US prior to the 90’s?

Very interesting that you asked about Switzerland! Switzerland, in my opinion, leads the world for mental health resources for kids. They have an abundance of resources when compared to the U.S.

Additionally, the mindset of owning firearms in swizt is very different than here. We are very defensive of our 2A, hunting and personal defense is our primary reasoning for ownership. Most documented reasoning for ownership in Swizterland is defense of country. Here I own because its my right, there its treated as an honor so to speak.

I think that carries over to the mindset used within the home. Here in the US, (my opinion) people are much more relaxed on storage, accessibility, ammo storage, and easy accessibility to their kids. Heck, I’m as guilty as anyone on this. Until we had a mental health issue in our home, safes and walk-in safe room was not the norm. Everyone I knew had firearms under the bed, closet,…. In Switzerland you have many less hunters and sport shooters & it is very much a common practice to maintain a very secure placement of your firearm. I’ve built a couple homes in Colorado for people from Switzerland and had many conversations on this as well as a very good friend that lives there more than half the year. Yes, thats a small sampling, but very consistent.

More of my opinions since I’m at it. If teachers and counselors could have conversations about the observations they see without having so called parents blow up and get all sue happy and threaten the districts to get them fired.

If more parents were responsible for their kids

If parents could afford to take more time off from work to be part of the health care demands that need to be made

If we could get a nation wide effort in demanding research and understanding into the MH issues we have

If we could get the F’n insurance companies out of the political arena of this

We are slowly cracking the negative stigma of mental illnesses. We need a very hard push in general education for the general public to have a better understanding of different types/levels of mental illnesses out there.

We need to break this ugly Us/Them – You/me….division in this country. Need to stop the hate because your liberal and someone else is conservative. The balance of what is best is in the middle. NOT on the far left or far right. I now have a couple neighbors I can’t even talk to. The extreme levels have taken so many people off the deep ends of the spectrum.

We need to enforce the more than abundance of laws we already have in this country. Not the select that serves one’s needs, but all of them. Crap laws need to be corrected. Read any proposed red flag law. So dam lopsided. They get written in such a hasty manor to take away, but provide NO provisions for innocent or falsely accused gun owners. Make them balanced and you get support. One sided and were still at the you/me stage

Accountability – I grew up with a fear of getting caught meant my dad had to pay the price. Believe me, it was a FEAR. If I screwed up (and got caught) I hoped like heck it was anyone but my Dad. That belt left some mighty big welts on my arze. But it goes further. If you have MI child, you have a responsibility to your child, your family, and society. Chose to ignore that and there needs to be consequences. That should be a pride thing, not just another law that won’t be enforced.

Riverrat wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>lindyrig79 wrote:</div>
The deterioration of the family home is where it starts. Kids need both parents and especially a father figure to depend on.

Add in social media and too many kids feel like outcasts.

If thats the case my whole generation would have been out popping shots. By the 80’s 50% of all marriages ended in divorce. 1980 was the highest divorce rate year ever recorded in the United States. My Parents got divorced at least once and almost a second time before they realized how expensive it was to be a single parent.

Divorce is a limiting statistic. This generation is seeing far more people have children and never marry or never even being exposed to a relationship with the other biological parent, thus leading to the prevalence of single-family homes.

Of almost 200 countries, the United States ranks #1 with percentage of children being raised in single family homes.

Our country needs to do better as a whole in society being proactive with children in their formative years. Sure we have counselors, mental health education, etc. but those are all reactive things to try and fix damage and hardships done after the fact. Make sacrifices and decisions that put your children first – not your own interests hobbies or financial gain.

Ditch the smartphones for kids before high school and all social media, try to spend more time away from work with kids, get children involved in positive clubs, sports, activities, and surround them with as many positive adult role models as possible.

***Side note – this is the most civil I’ve ever seen this discussion despite the different opinions involved. Kudos to everyone

A lot of social media mention here. I know adults who, if the social media sites got shut down, would likely suffer from mental collapse.

My old lady is one of them. I sleep on the couch half the time cause she goes to bed when the kids do and dont wanna watch the sports I do in bed. Yet most of the time if I grab a beer or go to the bathroom an hour or two later shes staring at her phone. I charge mine phone maybe twice a week shes probably twice a day.