Is Honesty Really the Best Policy?

Respect goes both ways.

I wonder what this interaction felt like for them?
What would a camera have shown?

Should have wrote that novel to the Parks and Rec department, not here on a forum. There’s 5 minutes of my work day I can’t get back!

Another little piece of the story that occurred right before they left. I really wanted to know what they would’ve done had I not sat at the fire at all and just went to bed.

They said, “that’s not what you told us”. I sai I know, I’m not changing my story I just want to know what would happen if I were not to participate. They never answered the question and basically left.

This was an important question to me because if I’m still going to get ticketed for not participating in any way, I need to make the decision to either confront these people or face a possible ticket. Makes for a difficult decision.

And say I confront them and they put it out. The evidence is still there and I am left in the hands of a Ranger believing my story or not. Well, I ask you guys, what would you do?

Kind of comes back to the title on the thread, is honesty going to work out for me in the end anyway?

By not pursuing the ones actually responsible for the fire, I have no confidence they have all the information to tell who was in the right or who was in the wrong.

eyeguy507 wrote:

Should have wrote that novel to the Parks and Rec department, not here on a forum. There’s 5 minutes of my work day I can’t get back!

Now your five minutes closer to going home.

Michael C. Winther wrote:

I wonder what this interaction felt like for them?
What would a camera have shown?

I honestly wonder that myself. I went from disappointed in myself to nervous when the mood kept getting worse. I never got the feeling they were having a bad day. It felt more like a couple rangers that were inexperienced and were trying to follow protocol. It seemed to me they were very unconfident in everything they did and asked. They seemed intimidated since the beginning.

Hell, if they would’ve lectured me about park rules, fires and whatnot, I would’ve been fine with it. That’s their job.

Wow, some of you folks are harsh…stuff happens, everyone learns different lessons from it…that’s what makes this world so great…

You did the right thing, so did the officers. They may not have approached it in the right way, but the law was broken and dealt with.

Thanks for the discussion guys. Part of the reason for posting is to reel myself back in over this. Not for gratification.

The 3 things I come back to when reading this are:
1) Your campsite broke the rules, sounds like you were the lone adult there when the officers arrived? Are they supposed to wait all day for the person who supposedly started the fire to show up?If there was one, who’s name was on the campsite permit?
2) You had a filet knife you were visibly fidgeting with…
3) You backtalked when they simply asked for your phone number…

put yourself in their shoes…

biggill wrote:

By not pursuing the ones actually responsible for the fire, I have no confidence they have all the information to tell who was in the right or who was in the wrong.

Gentle reminder that you’ve insisted you had “no problem” with them giving you the ticket. Saying they didn’t do enough to find out who was wrong suggests something else.

Is honesty the best policy?
Well, they weren’t asking you if you had a fire because they were curious. They already knew there was a fire at your site, they are talking to you at that site, and you had checked into the site the previous day.
And of course, there’s that whole maintaining your self-respect as an honest person thing. If you’d lied about it, and they did not give you the ticket, I highly doubt you’d have made a post saying, “Lying works!” and bragged about how you dodged a small fine.

Your campsite = your responsibility, even if it was someone else’s actions. It sounds like the friends of a friend who shared the site with you were stand-up guys by paying for the ticket. Move on.

JoeMX1825 wrote:

The 3 things I come back to when reading this are:
1) Your campsite broke the rules, sounds like you were the lone adult there when the officers arrived? was your name was on the campsite permit?
2) You had a filet knife you were visibly fidgeting with…
3) You backtalked when they simply asked for your phone number…

put yourself in their shoes…

1) each boat (3) has a permit. So 3 permits.
2) agreed. It was an accident as I was quite nervous by that point. By then they had made me very nervous.
3) I don’t understand? Backtalked? I asked why they need my phone number. That irritated him. I gave it to them when they answered my question.

You have the right to remain silent……

They had no proof you were the guilty party. Let them write the ticket. Then have the discussion in front of a Judge.

-J.

Jon Jordan wrote:

You have the right to remain silent……

They had no proof you were the guilty party. Let them write the ticket. Then have the discussion in front of a Judge.

-J.

Honestly, this is very heavy on my mind moving forward.

I’m not sure but I think the court might be in Philadelphia. Not really worth it.

My dad has always said the quickest way to get out of the hole you are in is too simply put down the shovel.

The best outcome in a situation like that is to stay as silent as possible. Stating you were at the fire is admittance of guilt. If you would have stuck to your first statement that you did not start or light the fire, all be it omitting the details you where there for a portion of it, there’s little they could have done to you personally except interrogate you and you have rights. If they are not charging you with anything and have no proof of you personally starting it, guess what? Shut up and don’t say anything because that’s totally within your rights. If you want to argue with them, guess what, they’ll get the upper had with you for being combative. Fidgeting with a weapon, my word you are lucky they didn’t cuff you. That could have looked unbelievably stressful from their end. They were probably thinking am I going to make it home to my family tonight with this guy repeatedly going back to his weapon.

But on the flip side I’ve had some long discussions with leo’s all across the board on the spirit of the law and the letter of it. CO’s are by far the most interesting when you get them chatting about people’s attitudes and how they personally determine to write a ticket or warning.

basseyes wrote:

But on the flip side I’ve had some long discussions with leo’s all across the board on the spirit of the law and the letter of it. CO’s are by far the most interesting when you get them chatting about people’s attitudes and how they personally determine to write a ticket or warning.

Bingo! Most people talk themselves into a ticket.

Well said basseyes. Thanks for that.

I voluntarily asked to remove myself from the table with the knife. They were the ones that told me to sit there. I didn’t choose.

I really don’t understand the point of the thread.

You looking for reinforcement that they didn’t show you respect? We weren’t there, I’m not passing judgement on them. To me this really is a non issue. Certainly not one for a bunch of guys on a forum to sort out. You are just asking our opinions anyway.

If you feel you were wronged take it to the guys who can help you….The Park Service. The badge number and officers name will be on the citation talk directly to his supervisor.

Regional office contact information

https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/contactinformation.htm

HRG

My issue here would be the ticket will show up under my name. Guilty is all that is listed next to it.

I’m not sure how they can write you a ticket when someone else’s name is on the permit unless he was to ensure everyone in his party knows the rules. Simply sitting around a fire that someone else started should not be a reason for a ticket to you.

If I was in your shoes using my 20/20 hindsight is to:
Call the LEO and ask that the ticket be rewritten with the name of the person that started the fire (and I’m assuming signed the permit). You’re all chipping in for the fine anyway. If he’s really a friend he shouldn’t have a problem doing this.

As far as the whole “fiddling with a knife”… are you freaking crazy!? People have been shot dead for that!

PS I drifted with a deputy along side my boat for 30 minutes on Sunday, talking.

Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy… but as J J said earlier, sometimes your best off saying nothing. It’s your right and that is being honest too.

Here’s the rub,

The law was broken.

Forest fires cause a lot of damage and cost a lot of money to fight.

Honesty is a funny thing with the law, it’s a game and good guy morals don’t apply, look how we all feel towards lawyers. It’s hard to keep cool in a situation with leo’s, but the best outcome for you personally would have been to keep everything close to the vest. You are pissed off and frustrated cause you were trying to be honest, then got pinched on a technicality. Once the ticket is written, good luck getting it in the other guys name.

Atv laws are starting to be enforced on the owner of the ATV vs the rider. Have talked to a local co by deer camp and that’s how they are cutting down on stupid behavior.

I am with the people who ave basically said when you start passing the blame, this is something that LEOs deal with every day. Excuses, lies or promises to never do it again. In the COs defense, you are guilty by association and participation. To be honest I’d be agitated too if someone appeared to be passing the buck, even if they were being honest. The right thing to do would have been to put out the fire.

That being said, they are clearly prejudice against Poles. #PLM What gravel country road should we shut down with a protest?

I’ve heard stories similar to this, but the DNR approached the situation more like this…

DNR says, “so someone broke the law here. You guys figure out who’s getting the ticket.” Seems like a good way to get the responsible person the ticket…?

The money wouldn’t be the issue it’s having a fine in my name as BK stated. I’d do some calling around and see where it goes. It’s pretty clear you are not disputing the fine or that a law was broken. Good luck.

basseyes wrote:

good luck getting it in the other guys name.

I know a fella that had one to many fishing violations (more then one line on inland waters). One more and his license was going to be revoked for a long while. The other occupant in the boat and the boat owner (who received the ticket) talked to the CO and the name was changed on the ticket.

I make no promises, but it has been done.

Dutchboy wrote:

I really don’t understand the point of the thread.

You looking for reinforcement that they didn’t show you respect? We weren’t there, I’m not passing judgement on them. To me this really is a non issue. Certainly not one for a bunch of guys on a forum to sort out. You are just asking our opinions anyway.

If you feel you were wronged take it to the guys who can help you….The Park Service. The badge number and officers name will be on the citation talk directly to his supervisor.

The point is to have an open minded discussion. That’s what this site is for, right? Not everyone who posts in online forums and on social media is looking for instant gratification. I’m curious about how others felt about it and what would you do if you get cornered like that.

biggill wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Dutchboy wrote:</div>
I really don’t understand the point of the thread.

You looking for reinforcement that they didn’t show you respect? We weren’t there, I’m not passing judgement on them. To me this really is a non issue. Certainly not one for a bunch of guys on a forum to sort out. You are just asking our opinions anyway.

If you feel you were wronged take it to the guys who can help you….The Park Service. The badge number and officers name will be on the citation talk directly to his supervisor.

The point is to have an open minded discussion. That’s what this site is for, right? Not everyone who posts in online forums and on social media is looking for instant gratification. I’m curious about how others felt about it and what would you do if you get cornered like that.
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I get that but you were the only one there. I have no way of knowing the tone of the encounter. I don’t see that the rangers did anything wrong.

mplspug wrote:

The right thing to do would have been to put out the fire.

I thought about this after the fact but I don’t think I should be expected to put out someone else’s fire that I felt was very low risk.

These are multiple group camping areas. Moving forward, if I tell someone I don’t know to put out a fire I risk verbal or physical confrontation. I feel that’s the rangers job.

Oh and FYI, no cell service where I was so there is no option to call a ranger.

Dutchboy wrote:

I get that but you were the only one there. I have no way of knowing the tone of the encounter. I don’t see that the rangers did anything wrong.

This is one only side of the story.

I keep hearing about putting myself in their shoes. Believe me I did. I always do. Which is why I was honest from the start. That may have been a mistake. It doesn’t take a fine for me to learn a lesson. I learned that maintaining a fire is standing or sitting around it regardless of how it was started. I didn’t know that before.

If you don’t believe what I’ve said then why even comment?

Biggill, don’t sweat it. I’m glad it’s done and over with, and extremely glad your buddies footed the bill.

It’s hard to tell friends to stop from doing something that is “mildly” illegal. I don’t yell at my friends if they don’t have their seatbelt on or are driving over the speed limit….. People break the law all the time, including myself.

A story came to mind right away when I read your post.

About 15 years ago I was duck hunting with a couple buddies, and a buddy’s brother who had a couple friends with.

The guys that I hardly knew kept shooting at ducks into dark, as we were picking up decoys with unloaded guns. Sure as ship, the warden was there to greet everyone when we got to the landing……

He said that he was writing two after-hours tickets…..He let the group talk it over. My buddy’s brother was on probation for another offense and asked if I would take the ticket and he would pay for it…..

I grudgingly agreed….and learned a life lesson….because he never paid me back…..

I’m glad it all worked out for you, and that your buddies owned up to it, even though the ticket is still in your name.

Anyways, to lighten it up a bit….please tell me Emily or Valerie weren’t part of the citation

If you get a minute shoot me a pm with a report boss

biggill wrote:

I kept thinking about how I would be treated for a speeding ticket, about what this was equivalent to, and there’s no way in hell an officer would have you exit the car to lecture you, give you a total runaround just to write you a speeding ticket.

You’re right here, they’d just shoot you in front of your wife and child, wait…

*Checks profile pic and sees a white dude*

Nevermind!

I was honest from the start. That may have been a mistake.

No, being honest wasn’t a mistake.
You got a citation, which someone else paid.
It’s not a felony, it’s not even a misdemeanor.
It’s a citation. That someone else paid.

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