Is Honesty Really the Best Policy?

I’d like to tell my story from the weekend. I was at an unnamed national park this past weekend and had encounter with the park rangers that left me rather unhappy.

My wife and I arrived on Friday afternoon to meet up with some “friends through friends” to share a campsite. My personal mutual friend was going to show up on Saturday. They were great guys and I got along very well with them. We spent the evening on Friday fishing for an hour before checking in to our shared campsite after sunset. The guys were sitting around a little campfire on the beach near the water. I think we all know the campfire was against park rules. My wife and I proceeded to get everything squared away for the night and decided to join the guys around the fire for about 10 minutes before we went to bed. We bs’d about fishing and went to bed as planned. I think they stayed up for maybe another 1/2 hour and they went to bed.

Woke up the next morning and it appeared all traces of the fire were gone. We all took off and fished for most of the day. My wife and I came back to camp around 3 pm and found my personal friend at the camp. We were back to rest and make dinner before an evening of fishing. Around 3:30 the park rangers showed up. I helped them dock the boat and they asked a few questions. They asked if I had a fire last night and said I didn’t light it but I sat around it for about 10 minutes.

That’s when everything changed. The ranger said they take fires really seriously and that I need to follow them. He brought be 30’ away to “talk”. He explained to me I was getting a citation for “maintaining” a fire. I explained that I wasn’t responsible the fire and the guy who set it would own up to it. No response. We walked back to my tent to get my ID and I asked him how much this is gonna cost he said he didn’t know. He asked if I had any firearms, I said no. He asked if I had any warrants, I said no.

We got my ID and I am little annoyed that he didn’t know how much the ticket cost so I asked again. He said $230. At this point I’m a little more annoyed that he couldn’t answer it the first time I asked. I’m also kind of trying to negotiate with him to wait for the guys actually responsible who will gladly fess up to the whole thing and he only tells me that we can split the fee up amongst the group.

We head back and they keep me separated from my party sitting at a picnic table. I’m fidgety at this point so I picked up my filet knife in its sheath and begin tying the sheath around the knife. I set it down and picked it up again realizing I am holding a knife and set it farther away from myself. At that point one ranger says I would pick that up again if I were you. At this point is am sitting in the sun so I ask if I can go sit in the shade and I point toward my boat. They said sure come over here under the trees farther away from my party. Then they begin asking me questions about my boat which he had all the answers in his hand. I told him to look at my permit and he says “oh yeah”. They ask me for my phone number and I say “what for”. He says “ok you’re gonna be like that”. I say I just want to know why you need my phone number. I follow up by saying if you only tell me why you need it I’ll give it to you. He says in case the court needs to contact me so I give it to him.

Tensions were high because I actually wasn’t sure if they were going to cuff me, or tell me to leave the park. I was truly thinking they wanted to detain me. They seemed really uneasy and quite nervous.

At that that they give me my ticket and awkwardly boarded their boat and headed out.

The guys arrived back from fishing later on that evening and agreed to pay the whole fine. I was paid in cash the next day but these rangers left a very very bad taste in my mouth. If they had treated me with a shread of respect I wouldn’t be so sour.

I felt like I got pulled over on the south side of Chicago for a tail light out at 3 AM. They had absolutely no respect for the situation or the people involved. I was 100% honest with them because if I were caught lying, they’d throw the book at me. I never imagined they treat me like I had committed an arrest-able offense. If you fine everyone for having and unauthorized fire in the park, fine. Just don’t treat people like they committed a heinous crime.

Today I noticed that the ticket has a date of 8/8/18 when it actually occurred on 8/18/18. According to the national park website I have 21 days to pay this. Well, actually 11 due to this error.

I have a ton of respect for ALL law enforcement but I’ve kind of lost a lot of respect for these people now. I have no urge to be honest anymore nor do I feel the need to speak any more than I absolutely have to.

I’ll be totally honest and say that I had a ton more respect from the officer that arrested me for dui 10 years ago than I got from these rangers.

End rant.

Ah, so breaking the law seems to be a common occurance for you. These rangers could sniff out a criminal like smokey bear found your fire!

Kidding…

What was the reason for no fire?

Was there any way to make a complaint to a supervisor?

Sounds like a story my buddy just had last weekend. Got a visit from rangers at dusk. Each campsite has a limit on # of campers. 18 I think.They had 2 camps with a total of 21 people. Well, most the people were at camp, but 5 or 6 were still out fishing. One group had been there for 2 or 3 days and another group had arrived at noon, but didn’t setup any tents before heading out fishing. So the rangers walk up and ask for reservation papers and all, and ask how many people in the group, he says 21 total but for 2 campsites. The rangers say they just came from the other site and no one had been there or setup yet. He explained that a few had shown up at noon and we’re still out fishing, even pointed out the guys tents and bags all bundled up for hiking yet. Well, 15 minutes of lectures and 250 dollar fine later they left. Even with proof of 2 sites reserved and paid for. It was their judgement that all the guys were gonna stay in one camp. Honesty didn’t work then either. They had serious trouble last year also with “interpretation” of clearly written rules, that the rangers improvised under personal opinions. I believe they will change their camping location after 20 years of the same location.

David Blais wrote:

Ah, so breaking the law seems to be a common occurance for you. These rangers could sniff out a criminal like smokey bear found your fire!

Kidding…

What was the reason for no fire?

Fires only allowed in designated fire rings only.

I’m not pissed about the ticket in general, only the total lack of respect. I kept thinking about how I would be treated for a speeding ticket, about what this was equivalent to, and there’s no way in hell an officer would have you exit the car to lecture you, give you a total runaround just to write you a speeding ticket.

Pailofperch wrote:

Was there any way to make a complaint to a supervisor?

Not sure. Although I may write to them with my experience and let them know how I feel about it.

I would call and ask to speak to a supervisor. Being in the business myself…there’s no reason to treat people with disrespect.

Maybe huff into a paper bag next time and not play with knives and things will work out better?

Seems like they were doing their job, see no issue.

nhamm wrote:

Maybe huff into a paper bag next time and not play with knives and things will work out better?

Seems like they were doing their job, see no issue.

Your opinion is respected. Part of the reason I posted.

Ultimately there really is no issue. They did their job. Although, if they want cooperation from the public, they may want to improve their relationship with them.

Its the motha fing fish police!

Anyone else notice biggill changed his profile picture after the original post? Something’s going on here….

I’d fight it. Can you provide an alibi and some form of evidence that you were not in the park on the 8th?

My name’s on the camping permit. I sign it to acknowledge that I have read the rules. I make it clear that nobody violates the rules. Thus, no irate rangers.

There’s a new book titled “Gunflint burning”. It tells the story of the fire accidentally started by a camper in the BWCA a few years ago. Millions of dollars spent fighting the fire on both sides of the border. After an extensive investigation, the camper was charged and he then committed suicide. Makes you think a little about fire safety.

c_w wrote:

I’d fight it. Can you provide an alibi and some form of evidence that you were not in the park on the 8th?

Absolutely, although I did a little research and found out that typos are pretty hard to fight. I also think I might have to fight it in DC. Not sure though. Either way, travel beyond my home county isn’t even close to with it. The guys responsible payed me cash for it.

Dan wrote:

Anyone else notice biggill changed his profile picture after the original post? Something’s going on here….

You’re right, something is going on. I decided it was time to change my profile pic.

David Blais wrote:

Its the motha fing fish police!

They didn’t have a dog they called Goalrilla did they?

Sounds like they were having a power trip at your expense biggill.

Ron wrote:

My name’s on the camping permit. I sign it to acknowledge that I have read the rules. I make it clear that nobody violates the rules. Thus, no irate rangers.

There’s a new book titled “Gunflint burning”. It tells the story of the fire accidentally started by a camper in the BWCA a few years ago. Millions of dollars spent fighting the fire on both sides of the border. After an extensive investigation, the camper was charged and he then committed suicide. Makes you think a little about fire safety.

What does “lighting or maintaining” a fire mean to you?

(1) Lighting or maintaining a fire, except in designated areas or receptacles and under conditions that may be established by the superintendent.

Sucks that you had your day messed up by somebody else’s lack of judgement combined with power-tripping rangers.

BUT the answer to your original question is still yes. These guys were the exception. Don’t let them turn you into less of a person than you were before they pissed in your cornflakes. Just my 2 cents.

pool2fool wrote:

Don’t let them turn you into less of a person than you were before they pissed in your cornflakes. Just my 2 cents.

I conquer. The culture in some of these parks have changed. I can tell you many stories of the crap that goes on in the National park system of the St.Croix system that keeps these guys on edge from visitors to local municipalities. Shite, in my area deputy sherrifs hate dealing with the river area. I miss a few of these deputies that transfered out or wen t onto better opportunities.

It’s on you. You talk a lot about respect, what about the lack of respect for the group having a fire they weren’t suppose to have? How about the playing with a knife? Jeez, you should have known how that was going to go.

I dunno, I wasn’t there. I do know the Park Rangers have a job to do. I want them to do it. Sucks that things went the way they did for your group but it happened, it’s done, live and learn.

biggill wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ron wrote:</div>
My name’s on the camping permit. I sign it to acknowledge that I have read the rules. I make it clear that nobody violates the rules. Thus, no irate rangers.

There’s a new book titled “Gunflint burning”. It tells the story of the fire accidentally started by a camper in the BWCA a few years ago. Millions of dollars spent fighting the fire on both sides of the border. After an extensive investigation, the camper was charged and he then committed suicide. Makes you think a little about fire safety.

What does “lighting or maintaining” a fire mean to you?

(1) Lighting or maintaining a fire, except in designated areas or receptacles and under conditions that may be established by the superintendent.

It means lighting and maintaining a fire. Plain English, not hard to understand. What’s YOUR definition?

I’ve pasted a little of the permit language below, first from page 1 and then from page 2. Also in plain English.

“KNOWLEDGE OF REGULATIONS IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
I have read and agree to abide by all laws, rules and regulations which apply to these areas and will do my best to see that everyone in my group does likewise.
Group Leaders Signature”

“Rules & Regulations:
MINIMIZE CAMPFIRE IMPACTS
– Fires are permitted only where existing fire rings are provided.”

Ill say it one last time. I don’t have a problem with the ticket.

It’s possible they just had a bad day, it doesn’t excuse their rudeness, but it may explain it.

I also commend you for owning up to it, posting about it, and responding to comments.

Jeff

biggill wrote:

I have a ton of respect for ALL law enforcement but I’ve kind of lost a lot of respect for these people now.

biggill wrote:

The guys were sitting around a little campfire on the beach near the water. I think we all know the campfire was against park rules.

Respect goes both ways. Why did you not respect the regulations enough to say and do something the night before?
Did it occur to you, that you lost the rangers respect, when you admitted to them, you disrespected the law by sitting around and reaping the benefits of an illegal fire?

biggill,
You mentioned that the mood changed once you asked them the cost of the ticket. How is this in any way relevant, if it was $25 or $2500, the facts really don’t change.

HRG

we broke the law and law enforcement was irritated that we broke the law! and also irritaed that i was fiddling with a potential weapon while they talked to me! imagine that! they should be all nice and bubbly!

thats just how this seems. i get it. you’d hope they’d understand you weren’t really the one who started it and its not your job to enforce the law and be a bit nicer, but i can’t hardly really fault them. who knows the visit they had previous in which possibly they dealt with a compulsive liar. you just don’t know.

take the lump and move on.

“They asked if I had a fire last night and said I didn’t light it but I sat around it for about 10 minutes.”

“He explained to me I was getting a citation for “maintaining” a fire. I explained that I wasn’t responsible the fire and the guy who set it would own up to it.”

These two lines are what stand out to me, and makes me think why the ranger acted the way he did. You acknowledged the fire but placed blame on a person who wasn’t currently there. To me, that seems like the tipping point of the rangers’ respect and the start of all of personal questions. Those rangers (and law enforcement in general) get lied to and hear stories of blame all the time and often times it’s a cover up, so I can understand their actions. Perhaps they could have acted in a more respectable way, but perhaps you could have as well. Its all water under the bridge now. Live and learn and don’t let it bother you.

Huntindave wrote:

Respect goes both ways. Why did you not respect the regulations enough to say and do something the night before?
Did it occur to you, that you lost the rangers respect, when you admitted to them, you disrespected the law by sitting around and reaping the benefits of an illegal fire?

Seems like a stretch to me but I respect your opinion.

Hot Runr Guy wrote:

biggill,
You mentioned that the mood changed once you asked them the cost of the ticket. How is this in any way relevant, if it was $25 or $2500, the facts really don’t change.

HRG

Not at the cost of the ticket, when I admitted sitting around the fire.

Just be happy you didn’t get handcuffed for playing with your knife or shoot.

blank wrote:

These two lines are what stand out to me, and makes me think why the ranger acted the way he did. You acknowledged the fire but placed blame on a person who wasn’t currently there. To me, that seems like the tipping point of the rangers’ respect and the start of all of personal questions. Those rangers (and law enforcement in general) get lied to and hear stories of blame all the time and often times it’s a cover up, so I can understand their actions. Perhaps they could have acted in a more respectable way, but perhaps you could have as well. Its all water under the bridge now. Live and learn and don’t let it bother you.

Well said. I totally understand that they get lied to all the time. Which is why I told the truth. I’m sure that irritates them but they deal with it all the time and should know how to deal with it. I also knew that they probably did their homework and knew more about the situation than I probably would’ve suspected.

I think about how we’re told to act when you get pulled over. Keep your hands on the wheel and or visible at all times. Don’t lie and treat the officer with respect. You’ll get it in return.