Small panfish???

So is it just me or are the pan fish in the metro and surrounding area small.
Do we have some stunted breeds or is it just to many people keeping what ever comes up the hole or in the boat.

I’m assuming its the latter

I’d say it’s overpopulation.

Probably all of what you offered has some part in the problem. The size of smaller waters may also come into play. Look at “Tonka” as an example. Larger water mass, larger fish. Still, harvest can really wreck a nice fishery if people don’t take care in how many larger fish they choose to keep or if some selective harvest isn’t used when keeping fish. Panfish may be a very prolific variety of fish but they are also the most prone to abuse by the anglers.

I say decades of keeping the bigger fish has resulted in poor genes that favor slow growth and smaller max size.

From photos and reports that pop up on line every now and again I would guess bet there are still a few quality panfish in the metro. Most likey off the beaten path and take some time to search them out. On the other hand getting out of town to chase fish is not a bad thing. You look with in a hours drive of the loop and there are a lot of good places to go.

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I say decades of keeping the bigger fish has resulted in poor genes that favor slow growth and smaller max size.

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This is my direction of thought for the problem. Has any research been completed on DNA if it can be done between different pan fish around the state?

I do know you can drive an hour or so past the metro loop and get some what nicer pan fish but not always.

Do we need to put a minimum size on metro pan fish so they can get time to grow larger?

Maybe more of a slot. That gives the little ones time to get bigger and the larger ones time to pass on the genes. Maybe harvest 9 to 11 pies and something similar on sunnies. Between 6 to 10 fish limit on both.

That’s what every state needs, MORE REGS

The more I think about it though, the more stock I put in the biomass theory. If a lake can support 100 lbs of panfish and you take out all the big ones and leave the little ones, then you will just find slow growing little ones. If there was only a good solution to counter people taking home only the big ones.

Right-on Pug –

Here’s a small piece from an older paper on bluegill population dynamics which describes the cycle quite well:

Coble, Daniel W. “Effects of angling on bluegill populations: management implications.” North American Journal of Fisheries Management 8.3 (1988): 277-283.

“Two factors that would tend to produce such a population size structure are consistent recruitment of young of the year and size-selective exploitation. Bluegills are prolific and are generally able to produce successful year classes consistently,regardless of the population size structure. Angling (as well as other forms of exploitation) is selective for larger individuals; anglers tend to harvest fish from the right half of the size-frequency distribution. If angling mortality is sufficient to increase total mortality—as shown above for bluegills—angling can shift the length-frequency distribution of a population to smaller sizes. A continual, abundant supply of small fish, coupled with removal of the larger fish, tends to produce a size distribution of few large and many small fish in a population.

These two factors plus two others—reduced growth rate and increased natural mortality rate resulting from intraspecific competition—would also tend to maintain such population size structure. Competition occurs when two or more animalsseek the same resource, the supply of which is insufficient for both or all (Birch 1957; Milne 1961). Animals of the same species and of similar sizes seek the same resources (Pielou 1976), and bluegills of similar sizes seek the same food. Bluegills are abundant in many fish communities, and conditions conducive to competition for food(many animals seeking the same food)may occur.

Competition, when sufficient to produce malnourishment,would reduce growth and probably increase natural mortality. Under these circumstances competition would help to perpetuate the population size structure that is common in many bluegill populations.

Such populations would tend to persist because of the action of these four factors (consistent recruitment of young of the year, size-selective exploitation, reduced growth, and increased natural mortality)…”

Joel

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Right-on Pug –

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Credit is due to BK who introduced me to this who I believe was educated by a DNR biologist on the topic.

It would be nice to see them scatter some experimental smaller/medium size lakes through out the state where they go in and net once or twice a year and trap and exterminate smaller gills and impose a 4 fish limit or maybe a catch and keep rule. But then again, I don’t think traps catch a lot of fish and nets kill indiscriminately. I guess it is the new normal where big gill lakes will become fewer and further between.

So to answer the original post, it’s not that people keep everything coming up the hole, but that they just catch and kill the biggest. And a lot of that just comes with the inherit size of gills, by default everyone keeps the largest quartile of bluegills because those are the only ones big enough to eat.

A lot of things are missing in that report. How about predatory fish. Walleye, northern and such. If you harvest to many of them then the small gills thrive. Maybe a no gamefish fishery should be set up. Only can fish for and keep small gills.

Sure would be need to see the DNR scatter some C&R lakes across the state and maybe do some work to establish a normal eco-balance, but that would never happen.

I know of 1 lake in the metro where you can fins eater gills. And not too many people fish it. Don’t know if there are any over 8″, but plenty in the 7-8″ range.

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Maybe more of a slot. That gives the little ones time to get bigger and the larger ones time to pass on the genes. Maybe harvest 9 to 11 pies and something similar on sunnies. Between 6 to 10 fish limit on both.

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Aren’t the limits at 10 fish per person already? Come over to WI or the boundary waters and its 25.

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A lot of things are missing in that report. How about predatory fish. Walleye, northern and such. If you harvest to many of them then the small gills thrive. Maybe a no gamefish fishery should be set up. Only can fish for and keep small gills.

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Go to google scholar and you can look up a pile of papers on predator/prey relationships and gill populations. There’s some interesting work that’s been done. Predator species unless in high number or in a fishery confined by size have a hard time keeping up with how prolific panfish are as spawners.

In regards to what Pug mentioned, when they net out smaller gills, the main thing you do is dramatically increase growth rates of the “new” fish that spawn after removal of biomass. Older fish that were present and/or returned before netting show only a small increase in growth rate as the influx of new, smaller fish compete with them for food.

Much of which points to the current special regs that are in place for high quality bluegill fisheries in MN. In other words, it’s far easier or more worthwhile to preserve the quality fisheries in place, few as they may be, than to try to create conditions in other lakes where big gills might be successful. There’s alot of work out there done to show that once older fish have been removed, it can be difficult to impossible to restore populations to what they were prior due to cuckold males and the moving target of predator/prey relationships.

All things to keep in mind when we stumble on to a quality gill bite.

Joel

I also read that larger fish give out a hormone that will will keep the smaller fish from growing or at least slow there growth.

I haven’t heard that, but back when I kept tropical fish, they said fish would only grow so big in a confined space because some chemical they gave off would become concentrated in a smaller space and stunt/slow their growth? In a bigger space where it would disperse, they would grow faster/bigger.

If you know how to fillet, you can get plenty of meat off 10 7″ bluegills. I personally don’t keep them that small, but I have cleaned ones that size and smaller that floated back up after being released.

If you want to fish for meat, why don’t you try bass? More meat on a 12″ bass than a 13″ walleye, and they are easy to catch and clean.

A 10.5″ bluegill doesn’t compare to a 27″ walleye IMO… it would be more like 11-12″ bluegill vs 27″ walleye. And yes, I do “gripe” when the guy next to me keeps a 10.5″ bluegill.. but its his choice to keep what he wants, so I just gripe inside my head. The same thing I do when I see a 5lb bass on a stringer or a 27″+ walleye (have to be 27″ to keep here).

Basically people and fishing pressure cause this problem. Its as simple as that. If you love eating bluegill like I do you become proficient at cleaning smaller fish when you want a meal though I still usually find at least 8 inchers but certainly not always and rarely by the metro.

PhilTickle you eloquently put something in writing I have been struggling to. The biggest mark against sunfish and conservation is that they just don’t get that big.

The only thing that could help the fishery is drastic rule changes to a few bodies of water. I am not holding my breathe. Even if they designated waters they would probably have to do a reclamation project, killing all the fish, starting from scratch and hope for the best.

There still are plenty of trophy bluegill destinations in the state, but most require a long drive and trek through the wilderness. Who wants to drive for hours, beat through the brush just to hopefully find some big gills.

I still think that now that the bass population is growing since the 14in. size limit has went in effect. Now don’t get me wrong,I myself think that the size limit on bass is great.But I think that those bigger bass take a lot of the small gills. Just my opinion,and yes the do eat gills.

Man big gills are great fun to catch, personally I don’t have much interest in keeping gills, a lot of work for a sniglet of meat. BUT my 15yo son has obtained permission to a private pond that holds some toads, yep he lips ’em like a bass then releases them all so they can continue to be caught and reproduce.

I’ll put that sniglet of meat up against a walleye filet any day. The only better fish is a sniglet of perch in my opinion.

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I’ll put that sniglet of meat up against a walleye filet any day. The only better fish is a sniglet of perch in my opinion.

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I’m in the same boat. My family likes sunfish and perch over walleye so that is why it is frustrating not being able to get nice sized ones in the metro area.

Bluegill are, or at least were, the only fish I would keep to eat. That doesn’t include crappies. I now have a 2nd favorite and that’s pike. I am not talking pickled pike either.

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Bluegill are, or at least were, the only fish I would keep to eat. That doesn’t include crappies. I now have a 2nd favorite and that’s pike. I am not talking pickled pike either.

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shhhhhhh. Mums the word on pike…

Smaller bass through the ice are great to eat as Kevin suggested. Ate them for years as a kid without knowing any different.

Joel

The problem is not all lakes have walleye in them. I know of 100 lakes in my area that have pan fish. Only 1 that if your lucky you may catch a walleye in.

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The problem is not all lakes have walleye in them. I know of 100 lakes in my area that have pan fish. Only 1 that if your lucky you may catch a walleye in.

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Mmm, stocked walleye fry is a perfect snack for a stunted sunfish.