Range is all the Rage

Range, it seems, is all the rage these days. Everyone, and everything in hunting seems to have acquired the “long range hunting” label over the past 2-3 years.

I see it on gear. I see it on TV and in magazines. And I see on websites and forums. Suddenly almost everyone (or so it can seem) has declared themselves to be a “long range hunter”.

What’s the best barrel length for long range hunting? What’s the best load/bullet for long range hunting? Best scope, best bipod, best rangefinder, best camo, best gun, the questions go on and on.

Weather it’s a temporary fad that’s being fueled by those who have invented a problem and are now selling gear to solve it, or weather it’s a genuine trend, I can’t say.

What I can say is that I’m very uneasy with the willingness many seem to have to declare themselves “long range hunters”. I’m also concerned about where this trend/fad could do to the image of the sport.

First, a few observations. I shoot a good deal more than the average hunter. I log between 1500 and 2000 rounds of centerfire rifle ammo per year. I also regularly practice with rimfire handguns and rifles.

My observation–admittedly anecdotal–is that this interest in so-called “long range hunting” has NOT been accompanied by the increase in the average hunter’s practice habits or marksmanship skills. At least from what I’ve seen in considerable time spent at various ranges.

I rarely, if ever, see other hunters practice from any position EXCEPT sandbagged bench shooting. So rare is it for someone to use any other position, that I’ve been told (wrongly) that it’s “against club rules”.

I regularly shoot from standing, sitting, seated shooting sticks, and bipod-on-bench positions. The only reason I do not practice prone is that I currently do not hunt any game where a prone shot is viable. But if I did, I would certainly add prone to the mix.

So all this leaves me wondering if all these newly-minted “long range hunters” carry concrete benches and sandbags with them into the field? Obviously not, so how are they practicing to be able to reliably kill game at long ranges?

I can tell you that a large portion of the ability to hit a game animal at long ranges is knowing how to make a shot under field–i.e. real life–conditions. Off shooting stick, while sitting on the hard ground, with a crosswind, with sweat dripping in your eyes, having to back down the scope because of heat shimmer, with a guide telling you to hurry. These are the realities of real long range shooting.

And on a related note, I see a LOT of hunters who are enamored with their ability to shoot small groups at 100 yards. But then I ask the, “So what kind of drop are you getting at 300 and 400?”

Blank stare.

I have NEVER had anyone come back with an answer that verified that they REALLY knew. I’ve heard guesses, guestimates, and outright “I dunno,” but in asking this dozens of times, it seems that average hunter really has virtually no idea beyond 100 yards. And this doesn’t even begin to address knowledge of crosswinds.

Of course, even finding places where it’s possible to shoot at 200, 300, and even beyond 400 yards is difficult. Which just adds to my unease about all these hunters who are claiming to be interested at taking shots at game at these ranges. And beyond.

Now I freely admit there are many hunters out there who ARE doing all the right things to be able to take game at long ranges. With that said, the rising tide of long range talk disturbs given the lack of activity I see that would indicate hunters are seriously engaged in doing what it takes beyond upping their credit card limits to buy the latest so-called “long range” gear.

I have shot enough prairie dogs at ranges of 400 to 500+ yards to know just how difficult it is to place a bullet within a reliable kill zone at these distance and under real-life conditions. That experience has taught me a lot about what my own limitations would be were the stakes a lot higher and the game a lot bigger.

My personal belief is that hunting is just that–hunting. Shooting is one part of the overall mix, it is NOT a substitute for hunting skill. And since the beginning of time part of hunting skill has been knowing the game and possessing the skills to get close enough to make a quick and reliable kill. This “long range” fad seems to me to run counter to our calling as hunters.

Is this long range hunting trend taking the sport in the wrong direction?

Grouse

I think the glamour of it is appealing to many people but I would bet a lot more animals are missed or wounded and lost. Also I have a problem with those entertaining themselves by doing this. It’s not fair to the animal. It used to be you would only take a long shot if you absolutely had to. Now people are purposely setting up for those shots. Somehow it doesn’t pass my gut check.

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I think the glamour of it is appealing to many people but I would bet a lot more animals are missed or wounded and lost. Also I have a problem with those entertaining themselves by doing this. It’s not fair to the animal. It used to be you would only take a long shot if you absolutely had to. Now people are purposely setting up for those shots. Somehow it doesn’t pass my gut check.

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This would be my fear as well and if this “long range” thing is a fad, I hope it dies.

Let me state before anyone chimes in with an extreme situation where a long shot is a necessity, that I totally get that for some types of game, a long shot may well be the only shot even if you got as close as you could.

But let’s be honest, Bighorn Sheep and Mountain Goats are the exception, not the rule. Most of these newbie “long range hunters” are talking about whitetail deer. Given the results that skilled bowhunters are able to achieve, I’m not swayed by the argument that you can’t get closer to a whitetail than 400 yards.

I think this long range trend has to be thought through more carefully, but I’m afraid that there are more than a few hunters who are buying into the hype that having all the toys is the same as knowing when and how to use them.

Grouse

I know a few guys that elk hunt every year and they are always talking about the 600 to 800 yd shots they take. Sometimes longer.

My gut tells me that any critter that can take a step or two between the trigger pull and the bullet getting there deserves more respect than that. Your mileage may vary, but for my first elk hunt next year, it is going to be a closer affair than 700-800 yds….

T

Grouse, I agree very much with your assessment when compared to hunters here in the mid-sates. But don’t lose sight of the thousands of hunters that are adequately prepared for those types of shots on a regular basis. I’m by no means defending poor hunting ethics. Many guys that set up “long range rifles” don’t even know what that means.

The term long range leaves a lot to be desired. For that guy that walkss into a store and says ” I need a long range rifle for deer hunting” maybe referring to 250 yrds, 400, 500…often they don’t even know. I seen it hundreds of times when I’m working fall sale events at Cabelas or Bass Pro. In contrast to that, you’ll get the rare guy that walks in and KNOWS what he wants. Extremely particular and will not accept any substitutions. Hey buys 5 or 6 different boxes of ammo, and or is into reloading. He’ll often comment that he’s setting up a 500 yrds hunting rifle but wants to plink out to 7,8,900 yrds. That guy will most likely be practicing and know his equipment and limitations.
Ironically, I am that guy. I have a couple rifles that I am very knowledgeable in for shooting out past 900 yrds. My limitations for hunting is 6XX pending which rifle I take.
Everyone I hang out with in Wyoming and Colorado have ranges set up at their ranches that go out well past 1,000 yrds. Most of these guys make me look like a rookie and I’m fine with that.
I always felt that respectable people ask questions. We see a lot of that here amongst us. Lucky for us, we do have a few long range guys with us, and we often pose specific questions to them. Jeff has brought a tremendous amount of info to us on reloading and long range shooting. Lord knows, he’s helped me out a few times. I appreciate your concerns for here in the mid states where many will never have a shot over 150 yrds. But we can’t lose sight that there are thousands of guys that are very respectable mid-range shooters and I would have confidence in.

Randy, I deliberately left out a definition of “long range”, because IMO long range is not defined by yards. It’s defined by what you’re prepared for.

I also draw a distinction between long range SHOOTING and HUNTING. The ability to hit a target at 400, 500, or 1000 yards when shooting off a bench and a stack of sandbags gives only the mildest indication–if any indication at all–about what the same shooter can do when shooting off of a bipod, shooting sticks, or a coat rolled up and placed on a rock.

But I worry that with this “long range hunting” fad, many are getting so enamored with their ability to shoot targets under highly artificial conditions and they are equating that to the ability to shoot game at similar distances.

Since I actually practice off of shooting sticks, offhand, off of bipods, etc, I can say that compared to benchrest shooting with sandbags, etc, the results of more realistic field conditions can be pretty humbling.

Then mix in a couple of reality factors like a decent wind. Then add a time limit of 10-15 seconds from target acquisition to trigger pull. Ouch! My ego hurts!

I’ve always known there ARE some hunters who prepare and are capable of long range shots. But given the VAST increase in guys suddenly putting on the Long Range Hunter t-shirt, I’m very dubious that all these Long Range Newbies have done anything more to prepare beyond buying some gear that says “long range” on the box.

Grouse

“But I worry that with this “long range hunting” fad, many are getting so enamored with their ability to shoot targets under highly artificial conditions and they are equating that to the ability to shoot game at similar distances.”

I also worry about the people enamored with modern video games thinking that can directly apply that knowledge to actual firearms and shooting.

It’s been a really long day, I just came across this thread and a good discussion started. I may add to this later.

Shown is how 98% of my long distance shooting takes place, off the bi-pod prone, probably the most stable and accurate position unless you are a F-class shooter using a bench and a F-class stand/bi-pod system.

Cheers

“I see it on gear. I see it on TV and in magazines. And I see on websites and forums. Suddenly almost everyone (or so it can seem) has declared themselves to be a “long range hunter”.

I’ll be the first to say I’m no long range hunter and I think 90% of those guys will grossly overestimate range when they tell you they shot whatever at XXX yards. In my opinion, a 100 yard shot at a deer is a long shot with a standard scoped deer rifle. Those critters look awfully small in the scope at that range and in the midwest, I think it’s a bit of a rarity for the opportunity to present itself to shoot at a distance much greater than that. Obviously on a flat field in parts of the midwest there are places where a guy could shoot 400 yards, but 99.9% of the hunting community (including myself) couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn at that distance and if they do, it’s shear luck. If I gotta aim to the sky to compensate for bullet drop and other factors such as wind and not have the crosshairs of my scope nowhere near the animals vitals, I personally have no desire to take that shot.

Range = what you consistently practice for
The first pic is a 416yrd shot. I realize its small, but if you look closely, you will see there are 6 whitetail directly above the turret.
2nd 425 yrd groups
3rd – Exactly what we strive for – 1 shot – one clean kill within our KNOWN effective range.

Now, what really concerns me is shotguns. I see way too many people shooting 10, 20, 50, 100% beyond their known range. They don’t know the size of their pattern, velocity of the shot, sky-busting for the sake of maybe get lucky At least with a rifle, I would hope a clean miss from a single projectile will more often be a clean miss. Too often, turkey, ducks, game birds are peppered with shot from outside of the effective killing range of the projectiles

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I’ll be the first to say I’m no long range hunter and I think 90% of those guys will grossly overestimate range when they tell you they shot whatever at XXX yards.

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Well, there is that.

A number of years ago, we were talking to a party that hunts a neighboring party and one of them mentioned taking a deer at “about 450 yards” in an open field. As I could clearly see where the deer had fallen and it happened to be by the fence next to an easily-recognized red post, I later came back and paced off this “450 yard shot” from the base of the stand.

190 paces.

Grouse

It’s also very different for me being from SD. 300 yard shots were the norm. But, we practiced for that. Our guns were zeroed at 200. Back then, I was also very satisfied with pie plate accuracy.

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It’s also very different for me being from SD. 300 yard shots were the norm. But, we practiced for that. Our guns were zeroed at 200. Back then, I was also very satisfied with pie plate accuracy.

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That is the part that scares me. Way to many times see guys are tickled pink hitting a paper plate at 100 yards. Then saying that is more then good enough for Whitetails.

A debatable but damaging subject to deal with

History has proven times over when a sport starts to turn against itself, folks that have no clue will take in what has been spoken as the facts and run with it. Good and Bad

Seriously there are folks that never shoot past 200 yards, in their minds anything beyond that is very un-sportsman like, a black eye to the sport. In this group as like the others there will be the folks that practice hard and those that don’t.

Distance really does not matter it could be 100 or 800 yards why? The problem and what what really pisses me off are the folks that will take a 200 yard shot as well as folks taking a 800 yard shot at a animal and the animal does not drop – I guess I must of missed since it did not drop and they are TO Dam Lazy to go look to see if there is any blood or signs of a hit let alone remember way points as to the location of the animal when shot. These are the folks that Black Eye the sport. It doesn’t have to be a long range shot.

The lay of the land and shooting habits sway from the east coast, mid-west states to the open west and south they are all different.

The bottom line is

Shooters ability

Shooters equipment

Shooters relation and respect for the game he is pursuing.

It does not matter if it is a 200 yard shot or an 800 yard shot

The majority of folks feed off of the marketing and hunting shows and everyone and their brother wants to ride in the fame, remember not all of what happens in the field is presented to the audience the way it really went down, be it a rifle hunt and or a bow hunt. I have seen both sides of the camera and know better. Media is good but it also miss leads many that don’t know any better, retail manufacturing only keys in on the flow with the trends and cash flow, what’s hot is hot, all driven off of marketing with the media.

So be careful what you express as you debate and pick things apart, never assume or go off of hear- say. You are only trying to tare apart a sport that you have just because it doesn’t drop in your favor.

Again I will state there are a lot of hunters in this country that shoot 1000s of rounds at extended ranges in their Comfort Zones. That will exceed any distance that you may be comfortable. Only because they do have the lay of the land to do so and with the respect to the animal that they intend to hunt, because they developed the skill level and have the equipment to accomplish this task.

And a peace of mind you do NOT need a fancy bench and shooting rest to shoot extend long range targets with accuracy and repetitiveness.

Just an example, last weekend a youth shoot held at a local club

Not the greatest picture sent to me but you can get the idea on the impacts, a fun shoot I was there to watch.

16 kids shot a rifle that they never seen before, they were only allowed one shot at a target at 425 yards

The rifle was an off the shelf store bought 30-06 Tikka rifle with a 3×9 Leupold scope

16 kids age 12 to 17 shot at this target only having one chance and shooting off of sand bags

The closest to the center won the gun

15 shots would have killed a deer at 425 yards – this was about the possible shooting skills that can be had, not about shooting a deer.

Wind conditions steady and pushing an average of 10” at that distances that day.

The kids had a separate target to look at prior to shooting, showing the target dot and the bullet impact of a few rounds that I had test fired prior to the event that morning to give them an understanding of what the wind was doing to the bullet.

The rest was up to them.

Cheers

So be careful what you express as you debate and pick things apart, never assume or go off of hear- say. You are only trying to tare apart a sport that you have just because it doesn’t drop in your favor.

Well said

To me, there is an obvious difference between shooting a paper target at 500 yards off sandbags or a benchrest, as opposed to taking that same shot at an animal in the field. Paper does not matter if your off 6-8″… to that animal and to me as a hunter, it does. As a sportsman, unless I have 100% confidence in the shot, I do not take it… if somebody else takes that shot and wounds or misses, it is my right to look at them differently and label them something other than a sportsman. In a controlled setting (range) you have berm’s or wide open cleared desert behind your shot. In the field, how can one know what is beyond their 500 yard shot ? Is it really safe ? Simple answer… no. I am sure we were all taught to know your target and what is beyond it… if it left your barrel, it’s your baby. I see/hear it too Grouse… in fact I was ELK hunting with a guy talking about the wind in the mountains and 600 yards shots… some of the stuff he said was shocking/scary to me

So G, if I understand you correctly, your saying that I need to practice all summer long on live animals instead of paper, plastic, and steel plates because the bullet placement wouldn’t be the same?

Not at all…. are you saying shooting at a piece of paper at 500 yards, is the same as shooting at a live animal at 500 yards ?

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are you saying shooting at a piece of paper at 500 yards, is the same as shooting at a live animal at 500 yards ?

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I would say 100% yes. Absolutely the same. I use the same rest, same position, in the same conditions. The only difference is the X is hairy and textured vs. smooth and made of paper. But it still is a 1″ circle target zone.

I would argue any competent shooter knows their limitations. Including wind, game movements, etc.

“game movements” = animal whisperers ? Show me the bullseye that jumps your shot or takes a step. If you can sit down at your bench or lay at your rest and be on target with the 1st shot at the range everytime in all conditions, hey, shoot away. If you have 100% confidence at the distance, shoot, that is all I am saying Jeffs target with the kids, shows what can happen, when shooting from a bench, was not 100%, but the same shot with the same rifle… just different folks For all you “long range guys” I have no problem with it, I just know I have yet to see someone post about their “miss” or wounded animal shot at 400+ yards… just as Grouse said, seems “everybody” lately wants to fall into that category or at least have manufacturers sell everybody stuff for it

Folks
Here again

Shooter skills
Shooters equipment
Shooters relation and respect for the game he or she is pursuing.

Anyone who is dedicated to the above is normally safety oriented in addressing the background and way points and reasonable distance they can shoot

Not at all…. are you saying shooting at a piece of paper at 500 yards, is the same as shooting at a live animal at 500 yards

To anyone that is serious about their shooting, yes the result and discipline as the result of the hit is the same.

If an animal of my choice would present itself in a relaxed position and in a shooting lane or area I have already deemed safe. Yes I would take the shot if I was confident with all the elements that will influence or affect the bullet flight.

Knowing your equipment. I would be aiming dead on and not guessing and I know at 500 yards – speed and energy at point of impact is 2169 fps at 3135 lbs of energy hitting the point of impact in a half of a second – 0.616 to be exact.

Paper does not matter if your off 6-8″… to that animal and to me as a hunter, it does. As a sportsman, unless I have 100% confidence in the shot, I do not take it…

The kill zone on a deer – 10” lung / heart area seems to do the job fine and seems to be acceptable in the Bowhunters game of thought as well as all the folks shooting 3D, so yes if you float anywhere in that zone with a rifle it’s a clean kill. Most of us all strive for a double lunger or heart shot.

In a controlled setting (range) you have berm’s or wide open cleared desert behind your shot. In the field, how can one know what is beyond their 500 yard shot ? Is it really safe ? Simple answer… no. their 500 yard shot ? Is it really safe ? Simple answer… no. I am sure we were all taught to know your target and what is beyond it…

I have seen more dumb [censored] happen at 200 yards and less, let alone the crap you hear from folks winging a luck shot hoping for a hit. This happens all the time no matter what folks are using and for what sport.

I can remember getting hit with birdshot while my father in-law and I were cutting wood with two chainsaws running on our land, seriously we can go on and on about this it happens in all sports of hunting. It should not matter if its 100 yards or 800 yards safety and responsibility need to be had, and there are a lot of folks that do try their best.

Ask yourself did you ever once take a luck shot hoping to connect, only a very few can honestly say they never did that.

Most folks who are at all responsible and skilled and have enough invested in their equipment and skills will pay attention to the fact of what’s behind their target seen and unseen.

The bottom line here, folks that are capable, responsible are very accurate, also consistent with their shooting and hunting skills are very safety oriented as well, knowing their equipment, their target and beyond. Most will set themselves up so that their vantage point allows for the bullet going through the animal or missing will land in a natural backdrop with the ability to see that no one is in that zone , this backdrop would be a natural gully, a bluff or hillside etc.

Those who depend on using a wood line as a bullet trap – which is common in many back yards are only asking a sad day, Growing up as a kid on a farm in the country I know for a fact that kids love to explore and don’t know better as far as trespassing let alone the adults that will stray. These are the concerns I have with all that use a wood line or brush beyond their practice targets.

I see/hear it too Grouse… in fact I was ELK hunting with a guy talking about the wind in the mountains and 600 yards shots… some of the stuff he said was shocking/scary to me.

Comes back to this
Shooter skills
Shooters equipment
Shooters relation and respect for the game he or she is pursuing.
Shooters common sense

There are a lot of good human beings out there that really try to do it all right be it with a rifle or bow, just because of the hype and drama kings that want to act cool, brag about what they done and dwell on attention well, those are the fools that will [censored] and blame everyone else for why they could not hit a simple target on a given day versus the folks that really do represent the better half of our great sport.

In any thing you always have the bad apples to deal with, just don’t get caught up in breaking apart something that we all cherish.

A few excerpts from the past here that kind of contradict all the concerns about safety and principles and knowing your equipment.

There were VERY few coyote signs in the open woods and other “backcountry areas” with the snow being very deep. The coyote movement appears to be concentrated near the cattle and farm areas where the walking is easy and the birds and rabbits are gathering. Prime movement areas included on frozen creeks, snowmobile trails, and there were tracks and doo-doo everywhere just out on the county roads. Basically, like everyone else, the coyotes are looking for easy walking.

Nice. Man, I LOVE putting the smackdown on pasture poodles.

Not sure if the ones shown represented the average size in CO, but if they did, those are HUGE compared to the average size I’ve hunted in SD and western WY. A lot of those looked more like groundhogs than p-dogs. All the better for the big splat.

A comment on the rangefinder. Nothing and I mean NOTHING messed up my ability to hit a p-dog worse than starting to use a rangefinder. It was a huge mistake because I was constantly catching myself second guessing and third guessing and forth guessing myself and making wild corrections or waiting too long to take the shot. Suddenly, I couldn’t have hit a bull in the [censored] with handful of rice. Even if the rangefinder told me the bull was well within rice range. Now I only take the rangefinder out to officially range a long hit. I didn’t even take it out of the pack on the last trip

My wind was blowing right to him, he just came out of some thick brush and was heading into some other thick stuff. I had no idea which direction he was going to take once he was in there and I was standing there talking to myself in awe over this thing. I finally came to my senses, rested the 30.06 on a limb, settled the crosshairs and fired away. The deer never knew what hit him and I finally got my wide one

Hope I was able to make a few viewpoints on your concerns Big-G take care

Shoot safe folks – let’s all stay aware and promote a safe sport around us

Cheers

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Shooter skills
Shooters equipment
Shooters relation and respect for the game he or she is pursuing.

Anyone who is dedicated to the above is normally safety oriented in addressing the background and way points and reasonable distance they can shoot

Not at all…. are you saying shooting at a piece of paper at 500 yards, is the same as shooting at a live animal at 500 yards

To anyone that is serious about their shooting, yes the result and discipline as the result of the hit is the same.

If an animal of my choice would present itself in a relaxed position and in a shooting lane or area I have already deemed safe. Yes I would take the shot if I was confident with all the elements that will influence or affect the bullet flight.

Knowing your equipment. I would be aiming dead on and not guessing and I know at 500 yards – speed and energy at point of impact is 2169 fps at 3135 lbs of energy hitting the point of impact in a half of a second – 0.616 to be exact.

Paper does not matter if your off 6-8″… to that animal and to me as a hunter, it does. As a sportsman, unless I have 100% confidence in the shot, I do not take it…

The kill zone on a deer – 10” lung / heart area seems to do the job fine and seems to be acceptable in the Bowhunters game of thought as well as all the folks shooting 3D, so yes if you float anywhere in that zone with a rifle it’s a clean kill. Most of us all strive for a double lunger or heart shot.

Shoot safe folks – let’s all stay aware and promote a safe sport around us

Cheers

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Jeff, you further prove my theory. Do you think most hunters in general are as versed or have dedicated as much time and energy to “long range” shooting as you have ? You give all the right answers, conditions are perfect, target is relaxed, shot is safe… nevertheless, there are a hundred other factors that can come into play on any shot, close or long range, that you never have to think about shooting at a X…. my comments are not aimed at anyone in particular, but rather the masses.

My math tells me, if you have a 10″ target and take dead center aim, a 6″ or greater margin of error equals off target. Sadly, if manufacturers can sell gadgets and widgets, to make us all think we are natural born snipers… that is what they will do. Like I read in another post about bow hunting… “Are these modern bows taking away some of the challenge of bow hunting?” …could the same be said for rifles ?

FWIW, I qualified EXPERT status with my weapon, when I was in the Army a couple decades ago. I could very easily hit a silhouette with open iron sights at 300 yards, with my M16. I certainly would not take that shot on a deer or elk. But that’s just me.

Just reading back through this, its starting to sound a bit more like a pissing match Vs a discussion.

As for the question above about not hearing about the misses or injured deer not found when shot at 400yrds or what ever it was. I don’t know of many. But, I have helped look for so damm many deer that were shot on the run at 50-100 yrds that its sickening. Shot in the hind quarter, legs, gut shot….all because of unethical shots – regardless of distance.
I don’t claim to be an expert in long range shooting, I’m just a student. I think of long range as over a 1000 yrds. But i have been a dedicated student of mid-range shots, and besides the obvious of knowing your equipment is to know when to say NO. NO, is something i have said much more often than taking the shot. There are variable reasons for it – Deer moving, too tall of grass to see my target, couldn’t accurately read the wind, couldn’t get my rifle properly rested, and the list goes on. Excuses??? Call it what you will. At the moment of decision, I had to choose what was the correct action to take. Sucks to have the cross hairs on a target animal and have to pass. But I think being a disciplined hunter is much more important than any potential mount i may ever have.

As for the fur Vs. Paper…no difference to me. When I’m at the point of kill, I don’t see fur or an area “about there”, I have picked a specific spot where the bullet is going to impact. Before touching off that round, I have verified my variables and have extreme confidence in the bullet path.
There again, it comes down to the ethics of the hunter. I hear so many guys say they put the cross hairs on the shoulder and let it fly. Well, where on the shoulder? Centered /high, behind, in front??? I look at a standing deer and I see light and dark spots like a leopard. I don’t just see a mass of brown.

I read what Grouse wrote and agreed with him. The pissing started with those who think because they can shoot Long Range, everybody can and we should keep our opinions to ourselves, because the anti’s will hear it ???

Yes, there is certainly a preaching to the choir aspect to this discussion.

If you read my initial post, I think I made it clear that the problem was NOT, repeat NOT the hunter who prepared both with shooting and hunting skills. But yet there seems to be a “You talkin’ about me?” aspect to some of the replies here, where some are clearly getting unnecessarily defensive.

So just to be clear, NO! I’m not talking about the hunter who prepares both his hunting AND his shooting game to be ready for the long shot. I’m talking about the one–and unfortunately, increasingly it’s looking like “the many”– who do NOT.

My concern is that with the increasing marketing of gear for so-called “long range hunting”, it is clear that there is an uptick in the number of hunters who believe they are capable of taking game at long distances. This interest, to me, does NOT seem to me to come packaged with the increased emphasis on realistic practice. The interest appears to be mainly centered around “buying your way to success” with all the right gear.

I have to disagree with the assertion that hunters shouldn’t talk about trends the could potentially reflect negatively on the sport. Hunting absolutely should discuss and debate openly the topics that concern the perception and future of our sport. Doing so shows that we are concerned and actively engaged with the present and future of hunting and that we aren’t willing to turn a blind eye to anything that may negatively impact the sport.

To be unwilling to discuss controversial topics would look much, much worse, IMO. Sweeping things under the rug doesn’t fool anyone. It just makes us look ashamed, out of touch, and unwilling to deal with topics that should be of considerable concern.

I think one of the most helpful things hunters can do is talk openly about what it really DOES take. The practice and the skill-building both on the range and in the field.

There was a time when many hunters got good at hunting by hunting and good at shooting game by shooting game. My father would be an excellent example of this. He estimates (probably conservatively) that starting at the age of 8 he had shot hundreds of ducks, pheasants, and partridge before he finally shot his first clay target after he was 18. Certainly he honed his shooting skills by leaving a trail of dead gophers and bagging rabbits across several counties in North Dakota, but his training for hunting was simply hunting with a little .22 pump. That’s how many–maybe even most–learned back then.

Most hunters today cannot build experience and get practice in that way. So we need to get it other ways and these take time and effort.

Grouse

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I read what Grouse wrote and agreed with him. The pissing started with those who think because they can shoot Long Range, everybody can and we should keep our opinions to ourselves, because the anti’s will hear it ???

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I can see where that was directed

It’s to bad I had the balls to get involved in this discussion. I never once indicated that if you where a responsible hunter you had to or should be at my or others level of long range shooting skills.

Yes I warned of internally breaking up a sport we all cherish.

Big-G I was ok with the response earlier and could see your point and reasoning, I didn’t think this quote was necessary when we all really do care about the sport.

Later
Cheers

I stand by my words….. not excerpts.

Well said, some folks say it the way it is and some speak both sides of the blade. I prefer the good, the bad or the ugly it’s only one way.

If we didn’t venture and dabble with what folks say can’t be done with or without technology we may still be in the ice age. We only need to do it with respect to others and who or what we pursue.

I for one have only once, knelt beside a creature and appoligized for having to take a second shot with the highest respect for taking its life.

It’s very obvious that some folks just don’t fit in
Cheers

The industry has definitely been improving upon all the tools. No matter what, it comes down to knowing tour equipment and limitations. In comparison, I think more close range shots at running deer is a larger problem. As I mentioned above, I have had way too many times of helping a guy find his gut shot deer from a 50 yrd shot.

Agreed Randy and it should be acknowledged that it happens and when it does, I think we all can agree it is not very sporting. I would venture to guess there are alot of long range shots taken and if it doesn’t drop where it stands or in sight, no recovery effort is even made at the long distances. (when I say long range, I don’t see a wide open prairie, I see 3 ridges and a couple creeks to cross over, an hours hike away in the mountains to go look for blood)