When is poaching, not poaching??

Ragerunner’s comment in the poaching thread got me to thinking. When is poaching not really poaching? The other day a pro golfer disqualified himself for using a non-authorized ball on one hole. Integrity? Did he know right away and his conscience got the best of him? Maybe a poor analogy…

To me the basic word “poaching” means to take a game animal out of season or over your limit. As we all know, this is a state regulated/managed activity they are kind enough to allow us to take part in. Does the state really own that deer?

Let’s say I’m a land owner of, oh, 1000 acres. Let’s also assume my land has an average deer population for the state of MN. I plant my crops each spring and the deer live off that food source much of year. Times are a bit tough this year. Corn prices are down, fertilizer was up, diesel was up. I’m probably just making my payments, if I can even make them this year.

I decide I’m gonna feed my family on some venison this year instead of beef. I head out to my field and shoot a nice fat doe. We butcher her up and eat good for a few months. Freezer starts running low, I head back to the field and get another deer. Same scenario plays out until spring when the bank will loan me more operating capital.

Am I a poacher? Would you turn me in??

I’ve had long conversations with family/friends who are land owners who house and feed the deer year round, only to be told what/when they can hunt them by the state. And pay to have the priveledge. It’s an interesting conversation with a few of them.

It is very simple in my eyes. If times are hard, and they most certainly are for some, and they take a few extra fish or a deer because they can’t afford enough food otherwise I’m fine with it. If they have a couple freezers full, a nice selection of beef and pork, and were taking extra fish or deer then I’m not so understanding.

Bottom line for me is a person has to feed the family. There is no way I could condemn someone that can prove hardship for taking and using game. But to cut the antlers off and leave the rest lay? Prepare for my foot to be broke off in your a…Well you know!

I always thought they should be able to take deer from their property. But I would hope they would do it like you mentioned, for the meat. Not just because there was crop damage. Then they should get the permits.

I’d be interested to see how the results would look on a “Poll”.

first off…. i think this is a great topic.

I personally have a hard time w/ guys who say they are hunting to put food on the table and take “wild game” w/o putting a tag on the animal or put more fish in the freezer then allowed. Bag limits are set for a reason….
TO PROTECT THE RESOURCE!!!

fortuanately, i haven’t been in a situation where i would consider taking game illegally to feed the family. I work (1) full time job and (2) part time jobs in order for my wife and i to live comfortably. She also works a full time job. And together we scratch our pennies at times to make things work…. it’s called sacrifice. Hell, I was only able to ice fish 1 time all of last winter (January 1st) and my first day off w/o out having to work at 1 of my 3 jobs this year was February 24th (my B-day). Did I want to fish and hunt more? Of course I did. but, in order to make ends meet? I had to work.

I think that the people who have the time to shoot deer, small game, etc illegally or out of season…. and also have the time to keep more then there limit of fish should use that “time” to work a job and put food on the table.

I know times get tough and there may seem like there isn’t any other way for some people to put food on the table. but i firmly believe that individuals who choose to live a life style of shooting deer out of season do it because of their work ethic and are trying to do things the easy way. I say man up and follow the LAW!

I want to go on and on… but, it will only get me more frustrated. Plus, I can’t and won’t tell someone they are living there life wrong. They are their own person and can make their own decisions. If shooting deer to put food on the table is the only option, i won’t stop them.

In reality, they are just like me, I just choose to work several jobs to make ends meet instead of spending time doing something I love, like hunt & fish. Maybe my priorities are “whacked” but I sure do like knowing and feeling that I worked hard for what I have and did all I could to make ends meet w/o breaking the law…. jmo

The state doesn’t own the deer, the people do. I guess the state manage them.
I say just simply go buy the tags and do it right.
BTW, I don’t feel sorry for the farmer that has 100-5000 acres, a bunch of machinery, and gets gov. help.
I get kicks out of hearing people move from the city into a more rural setting and to peeved about the deer eating there scrubs and flowers they plant. Can’t have the best of both life stlyes.

Picking and choosing the laws we abide by is a slippery slope to anarchy.

In my head, if a landowner/farmer what’s to kill a deer to eat, they should be able to do that whenever they want, regardless of it’s size or sex. I don’t agree with shooting a deer to let it rot or just for the rack. I myself, would only try to shoot does to eat, but having not been in a survival situation, I am not one to speak.

I do have one proposal…If farmers must abide by the same rules as other hunters, then the DNR/Gov’t should pay the farmers that grow crops for the deer!

amen Gobbler. And while I can’t condemn anyone who has fallen on hard times and took an extra deer to put food on the table, because I have felt that same desperation, I think there are better ways than breaking the law to feed the family. Besides that, what sort of morals would the person in question be instilling into his or her children???

no offense, but I say man up and get another job,poacher.

I can see where this sounds good, I own the land, I fed the deer…. but if there was something like this, it would be abused so bad, it would decimate hunting for everyone, IMHO. Believe me, there are plenty of “poachers” in MN that take deer year round to consume. The Long Prairie area has some Amish/Mennonites living nearby, that do not practice any kind of “season” so to speak. The DNR knows it, but does little to curb it…..

big G

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I can see where this sounds good, I own the land, I fed the deer…. but if there was something like this, it would be abused so bad, it would decimate hunting for everyone, IMHO. Believe me, there are plenty of “poachers” in MN that take deer year round to consume. The Long Prairie area has some Amish/Mennonites living nearby, that do not practice any kind of “season” so to speak. The DNR knows it, but does little to curb it…..
big G

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I agree with G, if there was something like this there would be too many that abuse it. We all probably know someone who is out of work and could use the food on the table, MN offers allot of bonus tags in different areas so if you have an opportunity to take an extra deer or two go for it and help out a family in need. If you do not know anyone who could use the helping hand you can donate to the venison donation program and all it will cost you is the price of the tag, something for MN hunters to keep in mind when you head out to the field this weekend. I can not think of a better way to help a family in need.

It’s hard to say what is “Right” or “Wrong” unless you are faced with the situation yourself. At that time, you are the only one that can make that decision. Back in the 70’s my Dad faced that very situation. He was unemployed and down on his luck. And I remember him going into the woods to do just that. He did not get anything…and the situation eventually corrected itself. But I remember how he agonized over having to do that. That was as tough a time as I can ever remember in our lives growing up. In a situation like that, I can not condemn the action or the person. But they have to make that decision.

Tough subject, I agree that picking and choosing laws to live by is a slippery slope. That being said, in the area that I hunt, there is an old boy that we are pretty sure does just that. If a deer happens to come into his woods and he needs food it’s down. We don’t have proof of this and we are not going looking for any.

It’s very easy, it seems, to armchair quarterback this topic. “Just get a job” is so much easier said than done sometimes but I don’t think some people know the true feeling or meaning of desperation.

The question was “when is poaching not poaching”. By definition the answer, obviously, it never. I think what the OP is asking is when is it ok to harvest a deer out of season. And that answer to me is when you have no other choice. As easy as it is to say “just go buy a tag and be legal” or “man up and get a job” I can assure you that isn’t always possible. For one do people only become hard up around the 3rd week of November? No. If it is July and your hungry guess what? No tags can be bought for any price. Ever try to take a job with somebody that isn’t hiring? It doesn’t work! Case in point. We moved to a new town about 4 years ago. For the first year the wife didn’t have a job. Oh she filled in at the high school a couple times and even for two in home day care ladies but she simply couldn’t get a job. No one was hiring. Now we were not starving but having gone through that I can easily see the other side of the picture.

I grew up on a farm. The last farm my folks bought was purchased January 1st 1979. For anyone that was alive and at least 10-12 years old they likely remember what happened in the early and mid 80’s. Imagine having just bought a $200,000 dollar farm then 3 years later the interest on the loan quadruples, land value falls to less than half, and the bank wants larger payments. Guess what? The “man up” phrase is worth its weight in toilet paper! Just thinking back on those times and that phrase makes my blood a bit warm. Imagine sitting at an empty dinner table and telling your three kids “well kids as soon as deer season rolls around we can eat again”. Until you’ve been in those shoes I don’t think you have much basis to tell others they are doing wrong by feeding their family.

We ate venison a lot in those days. And guess what? The deer herd is so much larger today than then it is ridiculous! So while taking a deer (or fish) out of season is illegal regardless please understand that there are times it simply has to be done.

If a farmers feeding the herd and hes down on his luck then its time for the deer to feed him, I don’t think theres anything wrong with taking a deer or two including a couple turkeys. Until he gets back on his feet things are going to be rough and uncomfortable and hungry stomachs aren’t nice or do they feel good. Yes they can get some help but at times there isn’t enough to fill the stomach everyday. Taking a deer just because he can and when theres food in the cupboards just because he likes the taste of venison is diffrent. This guys trying to feed his family so they can stay healthy. To me thats what thier there for even though theres regualtions and seasons. I don’t think theres anything wrong with it if he was trying to feed his family, poaching and over limits is diffrent.

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It’s very easy, it seems, to armchair quarterback this topic. “Just get a job” is so much easier said than done sometimes but I don’t think some people know the true feeling or meaning of desperation.

The question was “when is poaching not poaching”. By definition the answer, obviously, it never. I think what the OP is asking is when is it ok to harvest a deer out of season. And that answer to me is when you have no other choice. As easy as it is to say “just go buy a tag and be legal” or “man up and get a job” I can assure you that isn’t always possible. For one do people only become hard up around the 3rd week of November? No. If it is July and your hungry guess what? No tags can be bought for any price. Ever try to take a job with somebody that isn’t hiring? It doesn’t work! Case in point. We moved to a new town about 4 years ago. For the first year the wife didn’t have a job. Oh she filled in at the high school a couple times and even for two in home day care ladies but she simply couldn’t get a job. No one was hiring. Now we were not starving but having gone through that I can easily see the other side of the picture.

I grew up on a farm. The last farm my folks bought was purchased January 1st 1979. For anyone that was alive and at least 10-12 years old they likely remember what happened in the early and mid 80’s. Imagine having just bought a $200,000 dollar farm then 3 years later the interest on the loan quadruples, land value falls to less than half, and the bank wants larger payments. Guess what? The “man up” phrase is worth its weight in toilet paper! Just thinking back on those times and that phrase makes my blood a bit warm. Imagine sitting at an empty dinner table and telling your three kids “well kids as soon as deer season rolls around we can eat again”. Until you’ve been in those shoes I don’t think you have much basis to tell others they are doing wrong by feeding their family.

We ate venison a lot in those days. And guess what? The deer herd is so much larger today than then it is ridiculous! So while taking a deer (or fish) out of season is illegal regardless please understand that there are times it simply has to be done.

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I couldn’t have said it any better
Sometimes I think people live in a bubble. Sure their lives are goinggreat with a great job, nice house, etc…
But, there are places other than MN or WI where things are really tight.
I have distant family members in Utah and Montana, who have at times “lived off the land” for a few years. I don’t look down on them for doing what they feel is necessary. Who am I to judge them?

Now that Obama’s in there’s no worries right?
Just kidding of course I just couldn’t resist.

Honestly, those days are over in my opinion!
There are so many govt and private organizations there to help it’s not funny. If you go hungry or need any necessities all you have to do is ask or look.
Dail 211, churches, shelters, United Way, Salvation Army, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts… lets face it this is MN and we also have the some of best programs around. Many, many people are bending over backwards to help people who cannot or will not help themselves.

Back to the question. I thought years ago you could shoot deer on your property without a license…during season? If you couldn’t legally I think it was an “unwritten rule” wasn’t it?

Ferny

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Back to the question. I thought years ago you could shoot deer on your property without a license…during season?

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In MN a land owner can get a free tag without a license at any license agent during the season.

I’ll take it an unpopular step further……In my eyes, the major difference is a combination of utilization and need. If somebody takes an extra fish, deer, grouse, etc…..on occasion and actually uses/appreciates the resource, I am not calling the fish cops on him. That 17-1/8 inch walleye, or that limit of crappies or grouse when there are already some in the freezer at home, etc…. are not the end of the world.

I have a ton of problems with people that kill their legal animal and then waste it. I personally know a few guys that throw out packages of venison every year to make room when they shoot another. They are not breaking any laws, because it is not against the law to throw out spoiled meat from your freezer, but in my eyes they are a helluva lot worse than the guy that shot a doe at the birdfeeder from his kitchen window in December and actually ate it.

THe guy that shoots the heck out of the ducks and geese – but does not like to eat them usually falls intot he same category…..shoot them like mad, then try to give as many away as possible……make a batch or two of jerky…then the rest goes intot he freezer, then the trash. In my opinion, this is horrid – and a way worse offense than the guy that utilizes an “illegal” critter now and then.

Tim

Sell ten acres of that 1,000 (990 remaining) for 20k. Buy 15 cows and butcher them. Eat for 5 years and figure something out during that time. I exaggerate to prove my point.

Both sides on this argument, I don’t know there’s a right or wrong opinion. However, I do believe in rules. Without rules we’d all be sitting in trees flinging our own crap at each other. Every rule has been put in place because somebody sued somebody or said rule was taken advantage of at some point in time. My gramps did this a lot and I know he needed to do it. Like it was said already, I will not be turning in a guy that needs it to feed his family. Now, if they gave out tags for me to cork a doe, gut it, drag it out, skin it, cut it, package it and deliver to the guys doorstep I would gladly do it for him and pay for the tag.

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That 17-1/8 inch walleye, or that limit of crappies or grouse when there are already some in the freezer at home, etc…. are not the end of the world.

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If someone already has fish, venison, ect in the freezer then they should not have to take something out of season.

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That 17-1/8 inch walleye, or that limit of crappies or grouse when there are already some in the freezer at home, etc…. are not the end of the world.

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If someone already has fish, venison, ect in the freezer then they should not have to take something out of season.

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Yes – I was just referring to taking something protected…… any walleye is protected if you already have 6 in your freezer…….or a grouse is off limits if you have 10 in possession already……I was just expanding the ‘poaching’ concept this thread addresses. If season is open or not – an illegal animal is still a poached animal…… I have seen deer dumped in the field with only the hinds and backstraps removed…..and to me – that is among the worst of violations – wanton waste.

People that waste the resource really chap my hide…….

Tim

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People that waste the resource really chap my hide…….

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I agree

Just down the road from me less than one mile someone hit a buck with there car, they cut off the head and left the rest of the deer.

I love hearing everyone’s opinions!! I am of the mind set if you need to eat, then do whatever you must do. I’m also of the mindset that the farmers and ranchers who own the land should get some sort of priviledge for feeding and housing these animals all year long. I know it infuriates some of my family how the DNR/GF&P handle game management on their land. However, that’s a whole nother subject.

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Sell ten acres of that 1,000 (990 remaining) for 20k. Buy 15 cows and butcher them. Eat for 5 years and figure something out during that time. I exaggerate to prove my point.

Both sides on this argument, I don’t know there’s a right or wrong opinion. However, I do believe in rules. Without rules we’d all be sitting in trees flinging our own crap at each other. Every rule has been put in place because somebody sued somebody or said rule was taken advantage of at some point in time. My gramps did this a lot and I know he needed to do it. Like it was said already, I will not be turning in a guy that needs it to feed his family. Now, if they gave out tags for me to cork a doe, gut it, drag it out, skin it, cut it, package it and deliver to the guys doorstep I would gladly do it for him and pay for the tag.

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Sell 10 acres sound easy. But remember what I said about the economy at that time. Land values plummeted to less than half, interest rates were nearly 20%, and farmers were dropping like flies. Who would buy the land? How would they finance it? The price of milk also dropped by several dollars per hundred. Typing out ideas is so much easier than actually being able to do implement them.

I think most people are decent and want to do what is right. But humans being what they are have a lot of pride. Picking up the phone and calling a neighbor and asking them for a loan, food, or help, just isn’t going to happen. Calling the soup kitchen sounds easy enough and most times probably is. But guess what? They are so short on food they can’t supply the needy in many cities today.

I agree I’d love to be able to shoot a deer (why would sex matter) and process and donate it to a needy family. As a matter of fact we have been able to do that and will with at least one this year again.

Bottom line is laws and regulations are in force for a reason. Whether as individuals we agree or not, they are in place for the greater good. In the example by the original poster: If you can’t make ends meet and own a 1000 acres it’s time to sell the farm and move to town, maybe better planning, saving, and budgeting is the answer? Hell no, this is America, give me a visa with no limit, and…Americans can rationalize & justify any behaviour within 45 seconds. This is why our economy is tanked right now, and getting worse by the day, there’s always an excuse. Excuses for illegal behavior are unacceptable, but Americans can & will rationalize anything, not all but there will always be a certain % that will.

Rules are rules, and that is what makes society a society. When is poaching NOT poaching? It is ALWAYS poaching. It is against the law. I think what people are saying is that in that instance the individual has to decide on their own whether or not the consequences of getting caught are greater than not having food to eat. I think we can all be sympathetic to certain situations, but poaching is always poaching.

Part of the original post was “would you turn me in”…… It is fine and dandy to be noble and condemn all illegal acts, but would you really turn someone in for an illegal deer they might need? Or a 17-1/8” walleye? Or a few grouse when there is a limit in the freezer? Would you actually call and feel good about that person getting a ticket? I probably would error on the side of caution and NOT call every infraction in to the warden. But that is just me.

I saw in a previous post regarding this topic (can’t remember when….) where people were pretty staunch on “call the law for ANY infraction”…….. What about when you are driving down the freeway doing the speed limit and 90%+ of the vehicles whizz past you? How many times do you call the cops? In reality, the speed limit is for the common good. Those people are breaking the law…………

Seems to me we would be better off if more people minded their own affairs more of the time.

Tim

If somebody owns land, as is part of the original post, has a gun, probably a truck or car, are they really “needing” to shoot a wild animal out of season ??? Like stated, laws are in place to protect all of society, not to be used when conveinent. If I seen someone shoot a deer out of season, that is why they have the TIP line.

big G

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If you can’t make ends meet and own a 1000 acres it’s time to sell the farm and move to town, maybe better planning, saving, and budgeting is the answer?

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Have you ever farmed, been in an agricultural occupation, or had to live that lifestyle personally?
I am going to assume not with the above logic. I am not slamming on you so don’t take it personal.
It sounds to me like you are slamming the farmers with how they have to live sometimes. If so, please do not eat another meal unless it was harvested with your own hands.
The farmers are some of the best budgeters, planners, and resource conservationists in the world
On paper it sure sounds easy enough to “sell the farm and move to town”. Reality is it is not that easy to do. Many farmers have owned the land for 100 years or more and it is the only life they know. You don’t just sell the farm and move to town. SOmetimes you are forced to do things that you wouldn’t normally do. I know for a fact if I were down on my luck and owned the land, I wouldn’t lose a second of sleep over shooting a deer, elk, or whatever on my land. If people wanted to call me a poacher, so be it, it would be no sweat off my back.