Hunter dog KILLED in body grip trap…..

;I agree that public land should be available for all to use, up to the point where you endanger others. My dogs life has the same value to me as yours, maybe more!

If they put a leash law or limitation on how you could use your dog on public land you would FREAK OUT… yet you want trappers to be forced to change their ways? How does being a dog owner make you entitled to change the rights of others?

If dog owners and trappers are both being responsible… there shouldn’t be a problem.

40 yrds out was just a number, it could have been 75 yrds. Right now I’m designing a body grip trap and have been working on it for a long time. I’m in the final stages of designing and it will do alot of things the ConiBear type traps won’t by trapping more positions more effectively. When this thread came up I could see the need for a solution to get the spring to release and I think I figured out a simple way to do it. A friend of mine owns a tree cutting service and we talked about funding for the idea 6 months ago and he said yes and showed me a 3″ stack of orders for trees that he has to do in the near future. Seen him the other day and he asked when I was going to make the prototype and I said soon, I’m using his repair shop for his trucks, chippers, boom truck etc, to do it in, then its off too a patent lawyer.

This trap uses about 5% more spring steel wire as other body grip traps but the concept is different and adjustable with two different type of trigger systems of your choice, depending on the position being trapped, and is lethal. Anyway enough about boasting. When I get it to the point where patent is applied for I’ll post a picture for the guys who trap and for the guys that are concerned about their dogs to see to ask questions. The design of this trap is different then the other body grips because when those shut they have a tendency to break or do damage to the spinal column of the animal because of the way they close, mine doesn’t. Can’t say too much more or Id be giving away too much immediate information. Everything takes some amount of time to get things done. If this new idea works a hunter could get his dog out faster then other body grip traps and it would be easier for trappers to open them and get theirs out too. I’m glad this dog safety concern thread came up, helps spurr the imagination.

youngfry wrote:

If they put a leash law or limitation on how you could use your dog on public land you would FREAK OUT… yet you want trappers to be forced to change their ways? How does being a dog owner make you entitled to change the rights of others?

If dog owners and trappers are both being responsible… there shouldn’t be a problem.

Your missing the point. How does the trapper have the right to kill my dog??? The trappers are killing/damaging our pets/property on public land. If using public land by anyone and by their actions has caused damage to others that are also using the public land then something has to change. If dogs were causing adverse effects on public land then I can see your point and there are already laws about un-attended dogs running loose on any land including public.

There are already several great dog safe options for trapping methods that would protect the dogs and still work for the trappers. So yes, if both dog owners and trappers both want to be reasonable there would be no problem. The way the MN laws are written now there is no protection for dogs from trapping by legal trappers.

Why won’t the trappers organization agree with these new methods???

Many other states and Canada already have outlawed/restricted the use of these body grip traps. What makes MN special that its OK to still use them??

Mossy dan, hope your new trap works out. It would be a win / win!

We have a communication issue. I where blaze orange to be notice if I new were the set are I would stay clear. The law like Randy said earlier is on the trappers side. If the trappers neglect to address problems they will lose. The law is on my side many times but I choose not to exercise my rights for the greater good. Use less than leathal traps on public lands , put a sign at the access, go above you obligation.

yellowdog wrote:

My dogs life has the same value to me as yours, maybe more!

There was a study done years back that asked college students whether they would save their family pet, or a stranger first in a drowning incident, and there was a majority who would choose their pet.

I shook my head in disbelief at that, as I do at this comment. A humans life equal to that of an animal is beyond incomprehension for myself.

I appreciate the passion many show for their pets. I do question why the trappers have to make the change though. Why not designate portions of the public lands as off limits to pets? Just throwing ideas around I guess.

I know I’m biased for the guys that trap and I know I roll my eyes when I see people who hold the value of pets higher than humans. Of course nothing erks me more than seeing all these parks that I help pay for but can’t archery hunt in them. My point, I know I’m biased but as sportsman, we should come together to and find a solution that infringes on both sides as little as possible. One side should expect the other to give up everything.

to_setter wrote:

Randy- This presentation was held on our field trail day, so most members and even many people that were not members were there. The trapping presentation itself was very well attended and well received. There was a very good question / answer session at the end and everyone got along really well. I will say though there were a LOT of dog owners that were shocked at how difficult it could be to remove your dog from some traps if you didn’t understand how they worked. I think most assumed that it was just simple to remove a dog from a trap. Every dog owner there was glad they learned what they learned that day.

One other thing I found valuable was hearing what types of areas/cover the trappers prefer to use. It gave me an idea of what areas to avoid with the dogs.

As a concerned hunting dog owner who hunts both private and public land could you or one of the trappers on this board please share the areas and/or type of cover you would be using? And more specifically where you would use a 220 conibear trap? Thanks!

This thing veered…… WAY OFF !!! Time for me to chime in… to me, there is a difference between Fido or Felix leaving your yard and going to a public swamp and getting trapped… and a duck hunter, hunting a public swamp saturday morning and his retriever getting killed in a trap on a retrieve. Also, comparing an animals life to a humans, just shows how superior we truely are. That dog would give his life for you, but you would not even give a strangers for his ???? Hmmmmmmmm…..

kooty wrote:

I appreciate the passion many show for their pets. I do question why the trappers have to make the change though. Why not designate portions of the public lands as off limits to pets? Just throwing ideas around I guess.

I know I’m biased for the guys that trap and I know I roll my eyes when I see people who hold the value of pets higher than humans. Of course nothing erks me more than seeing all these parks that I help pay for but can’t archery hunt in them. My point, I know I’m biased but as sportsman, we should come together to and find a solution that infringes on both sides as little as possible. One side should expect the other to give up everything.

I agree with you where I roll my eyes at people that value the life of a pet over a human. Love my Dog & Cats but they are animals and not human life.

You ask the question as to “why the trappers have to make the change”. The simple answer is they are the ones causing the damage to others on public lands by injuring or killing their pets/hunting dogs.
I am a sportsman also. I fish, hunt & hike and enjoy MN public lands. A good safe solution that will not injure/harm peoples property/pet/hunting dog on public land is all that is needed.
I don’t think either side is expecting the other to give up everything and to change one method of use with Conibear body grip traps is certainly not giving up everything. IMHO

I would hate to see the trapping community end up fighting to save their sport. The public non-sportsman view is very easy to see and its not in the favor of the trappers. Trappers need to be on the forefront on this issue and all I see is they are hanging on to old destructive methods to do their sport with little consideration for animal owners.IMHO

youngfry wrote:

If they put a leash law or limitation on how you could use your dog on public land you would FREAK OUT… yet you want trappers to be forced to change their ways? How does being a dog owner make you entitled to change the rights of others?

If dog owners and trappers are both being responsible… there shouldn’t be a problem.

I’m not looking to start an argument, but how do I hunt upland birds or waterfowl with a leash on my dog?
The infringement of rights occurs when irresponsible trappers kill family pets, that’s why hunters and others are asking for a change in the law that protects family pets.
Fifteen states (WI, CT, ME, MD, MI, MO, NE, NH, NJ, NY, OH, PA, RI, VT, and UT) require trappers to set body grip traps elevated above the ground or in the water to protect dogs. Ten other states (AL, AZ, CA, CO, DE, FL, MA, OK, WA, and WV) prohibit the use of body grip traps large enough to kill dogs on land. Tens of thousands of trappers in those 25 states successfully use body grip traps set off the ground or use non-lethal foothold traps that allow the release of non-target catches. Why can’t we instate those same laws in the state of Minnesota?

I also want to clarify we are talking about a killer trap. Not a leg-hold, not a live trap and not a snare. But one the avg hunter cannot remove with his bare hands.
Though snares rate right up there with deadly booby traps, I do believe an unattended dog is not what we are trying to protect and snares can be removed. The thought of a killer booby trap on public hunting land is hideous to me. Even with our castle doctrine in place you cannot set deadly booby traps in your own home.

Randy Wieland wrote:

Coni’s can EASILY be opened by nearly anyone that takes a moment to understand how they operate.

I can easily compress the springs with my hands. For those that can not, here is an instructional guide by the MN DNR

http://www.mntrappers.org/_fileCabinet//bodygrip.pdf

Thanks for your input Randy. I for one have a difficult time compressing the springs on a 220 conibear and I have tried the zip tie method, but I just can’t imagine its that easy with my hunting dog’s head lodged in the jaws of death. I have also used the rope method and carry both a rope and the wire ties with me every time I am in the field. I also carry a Knipex heavy duty wire cutter that I use in the open water season on large hooks associated with musky fishing. I have practiced with each of these tools, but not with the trap on my dogs head.

So what’s the solution?
Easy: Trapping regulations that allow them to be used only in the following ways:
1.Five feet above the ground or ice; or
2.Submerged in water; or
3.In a box that prevents dogs from entering.
4.Only non-lethal cable-restraint snares (snares that don’t kill) on land.

Taken from: Dog Lovers 4 Safe Trapping MN
http://www.doglovers4safetrappingmn.org/home

GlennRengo wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>youngfry wrote:</div>
If they put a leash law or limitation on how you could use your dog on public land you would FREAK OUT… yet you want trappers to be forced to change their ways? How does being a dog owner make you entitled to change the rights of others?

If dog owners and trappers are both being responsible… there shouldn’t be a problem.

I’m not looking to start an argument, but how do I hunt upland birds or waterfowl with a leash on my dog?
The infringement of rights occurs when irresponsible trappers kill family pets, that’s why hunters and others are asking for a change in the law that protects family pets.
Fifteen states (WI, CT, ME, MD, MI, MO, NE, NH, NJ, NY, OH, PA, RI, VT, and UT) require trappers to set body grip traps elevated above the ground or in the water to protect dogs. Ten other states (AL, AZ, CA, CO, DE, FL, MA, OK, WA, and WV) prohibit the use of body grip traps large enough to kill dogs on land. Tens of thousands of trappers in those 25 states successfully use body grip traps set off the ground or use non-lethal foothold traps that allow the release of non-target catches. Why can’t we instate those same laws in the state of Minnesota?

ABSOLUTLEY! YEP YEP & YEP!

The answer seems so simple and the trappers still get to trap and the rest of us also get to hunt with nobody/dog getting killed! Brilliant!

I must be mistaken on my understanding of MN. I thought they had more restrictions than WI.

So many ways dogs die each and every day…One killed in a trap, and it’s end of the world…

BTW, i’d save the stranger lONG before a cat/dog.

At present THERE IS A RISK of bring an animal into a trapping area and having that animal that you brought into the danger zone, get trapped.

Now you’ve heard it. You’ve been warned. I’m not arguing against a positive solution for all; but i am stating that it is entirely within your hands to protect your dog; and you now know there are risks involved in hunting upland land.

WOuld you let your young child run aimlessly through the private land; knowing the dangers…Well, if you REALLY care about your dog….Try keeping it out of harms way. OR take the risk and go hunting.

Learn about the traps; keep your dog fairly close; and you’ll be that much more prepared in the event of an incident.

Can’t always be a victim…SOmetimes we need to take care of ourselves/property.

Though just popped into my mind…Wonder how many broadheads are laying around public lands. That’s a razor blade waiting for a dog’s artery.

We should ban archery hunting.

Thanks Stinky I appreciate it. Here’s where I think we all stand and its not because we don’t care about each others dogs. Even though things aren’t perfect here on earth we try to do the best we can to take care of things and try to do things right. I enjoy trapping and the many ways of taking those animals, footholds, body grips, snares, by the way snares are very lethal and the harder the animal pulls to get free the more their vital needs are slowed to a stop. I know people love their dogs and enjoy the time hunting with them, they always have and always will.

Myself I had two Brittneys and Zach the male hunted so hard that the hair around his eyes and the front of his ears and his family plans were bare on the front, from going through brush a rabbit wouldn’t even go through. Every time he came home from hunting he was bleeding he hunted so hard.

Heres a statement that some might not like, but if Zach got caught in a trap like a body grip I would have cussed, swore and who knows what would have happened. But I know that its mans needs that are more important, even though I tried to keep Zach out of danger all the time we were hunting, I knew sometimes it might be impossible.

Heres another thing that I heard happened to a guys dog. I don’t know all the particulars but he was hunting with his dog through thick brush and he lost sight of his dog and herd a yelp. He started running to where he last heard him and found his dog gored by a low lying limb through the chest and he died in the vets office, there was no saving him. For now everyone wishes there was a better way but because of certain things, things can’t be that way. I don’t want to stop trapping or stop any of the methods that are being used right now. I see things as my dog could get hurt by anything, a stick goring him through the chest, a miss aimed shotgun shot, falling through the ice and me seeing him knowing there’s nothing I can do and watching him struggle to get ontop of the ice and then finally go under, even falling over a 30′ cliff to the rocks below, anything could happen.

This may sound bad because we build strong and loving bonds between our dogs, hell Zach slept with me every night whether the wife wanted him too or not, her on one side and Zach on the other. I would have done anything for Zach,,,but I wouldn’t take away the right for guys, especially young guys trying to earn a little extra money for presents for Christmas, to trap, maybe hes even taking care of his grandmother because she doesn’t have enough money. My lifes a chance and so is a dogs life. I look at it this way. I feel better saying its ok to trap by just about any means to keep coons etc. to the numbers where more people aren’t killed riding a motorcycle, trying to drive around them in a top heavy van or a car, and going in the ditch and the kids being seriously injured or even killed.

Humans are at the top of the totem pole and its not that anything below them is unappreciated but its our responsibility to protect humans first. One of your family members might be on the back of a motorcycle someday and have a coon run out infront of the bike he or her is riding on, whats going to happen then. A dog is here on earth to help a man. Sometimes it doesn’t seem justified the way it comes to an end but to me that’s the way it is.

Even if my idea works I can’t see putting an end to any other type of humane trapping, it needs to be done, even if my dog gets hurt while someones doing it. Sure dogs are important to us but humans are more important to us.

Mocha wrote:

When I find one on public land it somehow goes missing…….

Mocha wrote:

When hunting upland birds in MN I am leaving nothing behind that anyone has to worry about for their own personal safety or their dogs or any other animal for that matter.

Really, The same quote from the same guy? This sounds like 100% trap theft too me.

I know you said your being sarcastic but these support each other. You’ll never be welcomed to have a beer with me if we ever meet up.

From Fishblood&river…
“Now you’ve heard it. You’ve been warned. I’m not arguing against a positive solution for all; but i am stating that it is entirely within your hands to protect your dog; and you now know there are risks involved in hunting upland land.”

This is the type of stuff I cannot understand. Its public land but we have all been warned. Thanks for the warning and now all upland hunters or hikers that have dogs can just stay off public land so you can trap with traps that indiscriminantly kill anything that gets in them EVEN though there are other methods or techniques that would work for the trapper and the rest of the public. I guess you have more rights to this public land by intentionally placing killing traps and warning everyone else and that makes it OK. What a bunch of arrogant Crap!

Glenn, I trap water areas because coons run the river and creek banks looking for food, heard the saying coons wash their food? they do. Mink also run the exact same areas. And both go across land , much more so a coon then a mink.

A safety area where the odds go in favor of your dog is in areas where there’s limited water, flatlands, hilltops timbers. Anywhere where there’s water the odds go against the dog.

Coyote sets can be made anywhere but mostly on runs that other animals are making and the same with fox.

330’s are the magnum size body grip trap and the springs are very stout. 220 size traps are the same trap but smaller, their opening is close to 7 inches with easier to open springs. A 110 size body grip isn’t much to worry about when it comes to a dogs safety.

An idea for a guy that hunts where traps may be around is to put in his jacket a 5/16 piece of nylon rope with a 14″ 1″ in dia. wooden dowl tied in tight to one end. The other is where your hand would go through this loop. How it is used to set the spring, to free the dog,,,is run the looped end through both the top loop in the spring and then through the bottom loop in the spring, and then back up through the top loop in the spring. When thats done you stand on the dowel and pullthe other end with your hand, bringing the spring ends, or spring loops together, then with the free hand put the clip around the spring so it stays open, then go to the other spring and do the same. This will free the jaws to open. Your dogs going to be injured but it will probably save his life, and all this has to be done quickly. It doesn’t hurt to go to a sporting goods shop and look at a body grip trap and see how to rig the rope incase you ever need to for your dog or a friends dog your with. A hunter can also buy a spring compressing tool to compress the springs so the jaws can be opened, this would work faster then a nylon rope. By a 220, no need to buy a 330 because they both work the same and a spring compressing tool and use it a few times, it will work and also make you feel better knowing you may save a dogs life.

I don’t want to say anything harsh but dogs run out into the streets and get hit by cars, something mankind uses.

riverruns wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Stinkycat wrote:</div>
When I find one on public land it somehow goes missing…….

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Stinkycat wrote:</div>
When hunting upland birds in MN I am leaving nothing behind that anyone has to worry about for their own personal safety or their dogs or any other animal for that matter.

Really, The same quote from the same guy? This sounds like 100% trap theft too me.

I know you said your being sarcastic but these support each other. You’ll never be welcomed to have a beer with me if we ever meet up.

Arrogance has no bounds!

4.7 million people bitten by dogs each year…

I wonder how many make it into a trap? Probably not too many.

Good info mossy. I share those feelings. I probably shouldn’t have even clicked on this thread let alone reply to it.

I’m out!!

Stink, going to court will get you no where. As long as the trapper set his trap according to the laws and reg’s. In fact you could be held accountable if you touch the trap even with your dog in it. The law state it is illegal to tamper or molst a legally set trap.I trap and hunt dogs so I feel both side of the fight. If your going to out law conibear traps you better out law all traps because I personally set a lot of drowning sets and if a dog would enter a trap it will be under water in seconds. This cycle is going to cause all sportsmen to loses of their past times.

Stink, going to court will get you no where. As long as the trapper set his trap according to the laws and reg’s. In fact you could be held accountable if you touch the trap even with your dog in it. The law state it is illegal to tamper or molst a legally set trap.I trap and hunt dogs so I feel both side of the fight. If your going to out law conibear traps you better out law all traps because I personally set a lot of drowning sets and if a dog would enter a trap it will be under water in seconds. This cycle is going to cause all sportsmen to loses of their past times.

“There shouldn’t be any dogs killed, but there are 1 million trap nights out there, and the number of dogs killed is small,” Thom said. “You can only do so much without outlawing everything.”

It’s uncertain how many dogs are killed by traps in Minnesota. Some critics say they’ve documented more than two dozen in the past two years; the DNR has confirmed 11 since 2007, although the agency said the actual number probably is higher.

I’ll save my dog over a stranger every time. I have love my pet and I hate people.

For the record I would save a family member, friend or child over my pet.

How many traps get ruined by dogs every year? Anyone ever think of that?

Maybe the real question is would you save a dying trap over a dying trap?

I just think the occurances are so low that it’s time to accept the losses or ban everything.

Better chance your dogs dies by car than a trap. By about a million percent.

It is estimated that more than 1,000,000 dogs are hit by cars in this country each year, and another 60,000 are lost or stolen.

Here’ is some more information on the hunting dog that was killed in a trap. His name was Bronco, he was a 95 lb yellow pointing lab. He was killed in a legally set 330 body grip set in Schoolcraft Game Refuge. His owner and hunting partner struggled to remove the trap but couldn’t do it. The trap was only 10’ from the main hiking trail. It was probably partially submerged (legal) and Bronco just went down for a drink and either walked into it or was lured by some scent intended to lure beaver.

Even with the suggestions I listed above regarding trap placement this dog most likely would have died. If a 95 lb lab doesn’t have a chance in a 330 conibear trap I am sure that my 50 lb yellow lab doesn’t have a chance either. This really scares the heck out of me.

A day of hunting with your canine companion should end with a tired dog and maybe a bird or two in the bag, but not with a dead dog because he got his head stuck in a trap.

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Thats too bad Glenn and hes a nice looking dog. Even though I’m very pro trapping I could see a rule saying that no trap can be set, unless its completely under water at a depth where it would be hard to catch a dog, but (only) in areas like walking trails, especially around resorts and even semi populated areas.

I know some guys may not want to hear this but If theres a fair chance someone may be occasionally walking their dog, (only in a populated area)(rural housing area), that the trap has to be submerged atleast 8″ under water. In any other area its a wide open and free choice for the trapper.

It sounds like the dog may have been close to a beaver slide and smelled the scent of the beaver on the slide, beavers leaves a smell on their slides that can be smelled 30 feet away to a human. There should also be a rule that this only has to be done within a 3 block distance from that housing area, then its the dog owners responsibility to have the dog on his leash. A trapper shouldn’t have to go 2 miles from that housing area just to trap, but the immediate area would protect the dog.

Dog owners also should be informed that its trapping season and to make sure that their dogs are on a leash if farther then the maybe three block distance. Actually theres only a small threat from the time the season opens util ice up. After that theres no threat at all to the dog. BY then beaver trappers are breaking ice to set their traps.

Guys using 220’s and bigger on land for coons etc. should have to stay away that 3 block minimum, I would anyway. If a dog gets out of the house and runs then its the luck of the draw for the owner. People should be able to trap just about anywhere but I can see a few limits, just like a person can’t trap within the city limits and only where permission has been givin. A rural housing area rule wouldn’t hurt, after that distance its the dog owners responsibility and not the trappers, print it a few times before trapping season opens, hey it keeps rabies down to a minimum.