How Can We Keep Our Schools Safe?

I read an interesting article today that suggested rather than rely on the government to intervene, the anti-assault weapon lobby should start pressing financial institutions to take a stand on this issue. The premise was that VISA, MC, etc, should refuse to open their transaction networks to retailers that sell AR’s, high capacity magazines, bump stocks, etc. And that one way to pressure those guys into taking that stand would be for enormous corporations like Apple, Amazon, McDonalds, etc., to stop accepting those credit cards in protest.

I see a lot of potential pitfalls in that idea, and it’s nowhere near perfect. But as somebody who does feel that A.) Some of these guns are a part of the problem, but also B.) Doubts the government’s ability to successfully implement a “ban” in any meaningful way, this struck me as at least a creative proposal that could start further conversation.

They’ll just use crypto currency to make financial transactions.

In fact, by the end of the month Litecoin will be a cheaper mode of payment by 1/3 over cc transactions for vendors. Crypto is here to stay.

Not sure how that would work. I have a Cabela’s black card. Good to go for an AR. And I think if I was blocked from buying from Amazon there stock price would take a hit. (I buy alot from Amazon))

ptc wrote:

Not trying to be a stickler here, but Henry Ford never said that. It is often attributed to him by those trying to make a particular point. But he never said it.

Also the quote attributed to Jefferson is not from Jefferson. It is from Cesare Beccaria’s Essay on Crimes and Punishments. Originally published in Italy in 1764. Your version was translated to english by Henry Palolucci in 1963.

I haven’t seen anything else refuting the quote from Ford. Can you post it here?

Thanks for the Cesare Beccaria information. You learn something every day. Jefferson quoted Beccaria, which doesn’t change the message.

Here is the translation that I found of Jefferson’s quote of Beccaria.

A principal source of errors and injustice are false ideas of utility. For example: that legislator has false ideas of utility who considers particular more than general conveniencies, who had rather command the sentiments of mankind than excite them, who dares say to reason, “Be thou a slave;” who would sacrifice a thousand real advantages to the fear of an imaginary or trifling inconvenience; who would deprive men of the use of fire for fear of their being burnt, and of water for fear of their being drowned; and who knows of no means of preventing evil but by destroying it.

The laws of this nature are those which forbid to wear arms, disarming those only who are not disposed to commit the crime which the laws mean to prevent. Can it be supposed, that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, and the most important of the code, will respect the less considerable and arbitrary injunctions, the violation of which is so easy, and of so little comparative importance? Does not the execution of this law deprive the subject of that personal liberty, so dear to mankind and to the wise legislator? and does it not subject the innocent to all the disagreeable circumstances that should only fall on the guilty? It certainly makes the situation of the assaulted worse, and of the assailants better, and rather encourages than prevents murder, as it requires less courage to attack unarmed than armed persons.

The quote still fits my assertion that the safe zone is the problem that invites these types of attacks.

I’m amazed the discussion is still going on when we know the FBI failed in this instance.

Our Vision
Ahead of the threat through leadership, agility, and integration.

Our Mission
To protect the American people and uphold the Constitution of the United States.

They failed and no they don’t get the benefit of the doubt.

But weapons of war, AR-15s, mental illness, NRA something or other blah blah blah

biggill wrote:

They’ll just use crypto currency to make financial transactions.

In fact, by the end of the month Litecoin will be a cheaper mode of payment by 1/3 over cc transactions for vendors. Crypto is here to stay.

I read recently that JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup and Bank of America all banned the use of their cards/accounts to purchase bitcoin etc. I still think it’s an awful small swath of people using cryptos at this point at least.

gizmoguy wrote:

Not sure how that would work. I have a Cabela’s black card. Good to go for an AR. And I think if I was blocked from buying from Amazon there stock price would take a hit. (I buy alot from Amazon))

Who do you think supplies the credit to Cabela’s? I think they’re tied to MC.

Again, I’m not saying this is the answer or even a solid logical solution. But i do think it will require an outside-the-box proposal like this, one that doesn’t rely on the government.

mplspug wrote:

I’m amazed the discussion is still going on when we know the FBI failed in this instance.

Our Vision
Ahead of the threat through leadership, agility, and integration.

Our Mission
To protect the American people and uphold the Constitution of the United States.

They failed and no they don’t get the benefit of the doubt.

But weapons of war, AR-15s, mental illness, NRA something or other blah blah blah

I’d agree if this was an isolated incident, but it clearly is not. So great we have a scapegoat for this individual horrific crime and the FBI should answer for that. this issue goes far beyond this one recent incident and that’s why the discussion continues.

pool2fool wrote:

I read an interesting article today that suggested rather than rely on the government to intervene, the anti-assault weapon lobby should start pressing financial institutions to take a stand on this issue. The premise was that VISA, MC, etc, should refuse to open their transaction networks to retailers that sell AR’s, high capacity magazines, bump stocks, etc. And that one way to pressure those guys into taking that stand would be for enormous corporations like Apple, Amazon, McDonalds, etc., to stop accepting those credit cards in protest.

I see a lot of potential pitfalls in that idea, and it’s nowhere near perfect. But as somebody who does feel that A.) Some of these guns are a part of the problem, but also B.) Doubts the government’s ability to successfully implement a “ban” in any meaningful way, this struck me as at least a creative proposal that could start further conversation.

Might want to do some reading on operation choke point.

Check out LitePay. At the end of the month there will be a Visa LitePay card.

http://m.nasdaq.com/article/will-litepay-be-the-game-changer-that-takes-cryptocurrency-mainstream-cm918280

https://www.litepay.us

This is a system for every day vendors to accept money without the volatility of the crypto market. The processing fees are a fraction of the cost of a cc transaction. You can have your paycheck direct deposited to LitePay.

Trust me, it’s here to stay.

Banks don’t want it because it’s money that doesn’t need to be held physically and make interest in it. We don’t need no stinking banks!

Sorry, I know this is a separate topic.

Big Pike’s list is more to the point than you give him credit for. I’d only add that we need to bring back the draft too.

And if you are referencing “moral decay” in a tongue-in check way or loosely, you’d better wake up because that’s exactly what this country is suffering from.

pool2fool wrote:

I’d agree if this was an isolated incident, but it clearly is not. So great we have a scapegoat for this individual horrific crime and the FBI should answer for that. this issue goes far beyond this one recent incident and that’s why the discussion continues.

Except it is not an isolated event. It has been happening for more than 100 years. Note, it pre-dates the AR15.

It has been happening more frequently lately. Why do you suppose that is? The weapon, the mentality, population density, the creation of areas that protect the perpetrator, …. ?

I might argue that all of the above contribute to the current rise.
If we are going to start attacking constitutional rights, I might also suggest that we tackle population growth. There are too many of us on this planet and we do not have the resources to help everyone. Why does anyone need more than two kids anymore?
It made sense when 43% of children died before age 5, around the time the constitution was written. More kids were needed as farm hands too. It doesn’t make sense anymore with child mortality rates below 5%.

It’s a slippery slope to chip away at rights.

tornadochaser wrote:

Might want to do some reading on operation choke point.

I’m aware of choke point. This was a DOJ initiative and all the pressure was applied by the government. I know a number of law-abiding financial services operations suffered as a result and I totally get the criticism.

The proposal from the article I mentioned is hardly comparable as the whole point is to side-step the government?

biggill wrote:

Trust me, it’s here to stay.

Banks don’t want it because it’s money that doesn’t need to be held physically and make interest in it. We don’t need no stinking banks!

Sorry, I know this is a separate topic.

You may be right! I’m the furthest thing from an expert on cryptos at this point. It just feels like the American public is a long way from trusting LitePay with their entire paycheck every 2 weeks. But if it’s as easy as they’re making it sound I could see myself pushing $100 per check into LP just to get comfortable with it.

No easy answers, but I think we all agree something needs to be done. Taking the input here, I would suggest a multi-prong approach

1) Create a Federal program, call it what you want, have it be a special division of FBI or some other entity. This group strictly focuses on school related threats and prevention. They can tap digital footprints, field incoming tips, and work directly with local law enforcement. Key – they need to be empowered to act when a potential threat is determined. This may mean detention of individuals who haven’t done anything yet, so be it. If you are posting things online, you deserve some “special” attention until you prove you are not a threat.

2) Empower schools so they are not an easy target. Strict security on all entrances, possibly armed guards, and possibly arm select teachers who want to go through advanced training

3) Increase mental health awareness and resources for school age children.

Not sure where they money for this will come from, but it’s got to move up on the priority list. And soon.

Any idea of how many people of interest are reported to local officials, and then I would guess they in turn forward information to the FBI if it deems valid in a year? I would guess the number is a ridiculously high number, that number is only going skyrocket. That and funding for the state department, and the FBI are being cut just seems to me as the problem is going to get worse.

pool2fool wrote:

ead an interesting article today that suggested rather than rely on the government to intervene, the anti-assault weapon lobby should start pressing financial institutions to take a stand on this issue. The premise was that VISA, MC, etc, should refuse to open their transaction networks to retailers that sell AR’s, high capacity magazines, bump stocks, etc.

Even if the credit card companies were motivated to do so, it would be virtually impossible and clearly whoever floated that idea doesn’t understand how impossible it would be to implement.

First, the credit card company doesn’t know WHAT was purchased. They just know that a dollar total is owned. Somehow, they would have to research each and every one of their customers to find out who was selling items on “the banned list”. A virtually impossible task to complete and keep up on.

Also, often the merchant account is in the name of a vague-sounding corporate entity. Bob’s Hit Squad AR Rapidfire Rambo Shop may have its merchant account under the innocuous name of BFD Construction Holdings, LLC. See the problem? And if they didn’t, they SURLY would as soon as anyone tried to implement this “ban”.

mplspug wrote:

I’m amazed the discussion is still going on when we know the FBI failed in this instance.

Well, I think there is a broad desire to deal with the cause rather than just the symptoms. The FBI dropped the ball, but as with terrorist attacks, it was not the FBI that caused the attacker to want to kill people.

Yes, the FBI needs to be held accountable and I’m tired to death of the low-level government employees that always seem to get away with (in this case) literally murder by incompetence, yet we never seem to learn their names or what (if any) consequences were felt. The higher ups have to pay the price, but the people who actually failed to do their job are hidden from us and their punishment is a letter in their file. Name and shame!

Also, no matter how good the cure is, prevention is always better.

Grouse

pool2fool wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>biggill wrote:</div>
They’ll just use crypto currency to make financial transactions.

In fact, by the end of the month Litecoin will be a cheaper mode of payment by 1/3 over cc transactions for vendors. Crypto is here to stay.

I read recently that JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup and Bank of America all banned the use of their cards/accounts to purchase bitcoin etc. I still think it’s an awful small swath of people using cryptos at this point at least.

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>gizmoguy wrote:</div>
Not sure how that would work. I have a Cabela’s black card. Good to go for an AR. And I think if I was blocked from buying from Amazon there stock price would take a hit. (I buy alot from Amazon))

Who do you think supplies the credit to Cabela’s? I think they’re tied to MC.

Again, I’m not saying this is the answer or even a solid logical solution. But i do think it will require an outside-the-box proposal like this, one that doesn’t rely on the government.

tornadochaser wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>smb218 wrote:</div>
So here is a thought. I’m all about the right to bear arms but really come on everybody why are civilians able to go to a store and but a assault rifle. They are made to kill people end of sentence. No civilians should be able to just go get one. Why is it that hard for you all to understand. Some say they made for target practice or that’s what i use them for. Well that what .22’s are for. You don’t see many mass shootings if any done with a .22 but we do see mass shootings with AR 15’s and other types of high caliber assault rifles. Wtf. If you want to get one you should have to wait a few weeks give a blood and urine tests and go through a extensive background check which should be paid for by the purchaser sure you want a assault rifle pay for all these tests and the background check. You pass all of them then have your pretty people killing gun. You want one that bad to go though all the tests and your found that your a stable human not on drugs or have any mental illness then again enjoy your assault rifle. And those who want to use the 2nd amendment bull pretty sure assault rifles were not around when it went into effect. I’m sure you all will bash and have hate replies but whatever. I don’t care if your a up standing citizen or a crazed madmen point is assault rifles should only be for law enforcement or the military common sense people.

Can we ban kicks, headbutts, and punches too? Because human body parts account for more homicides than rifles do annually. Or Knives? we should ban knives. Those account for more homicides than rifles annually. Do you actually know how many homicides are committed with firearms that meet the oft accepted “assault rifle” criteria?

I think you missed the point. Have there been mass head buttings at schools? Did some nutjob kick 20 kids to death? Did any of these incidents have a knife wielding psycho trying to slash our kids? Taking away the AR’s does zero. 4 semi auto handguns loaded in a backpack would inflict just as much carnage. It will happen again in another couple months unless something is done soon.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

And if you are referencing “moral decay” in a tongue-in check way or loosely, you’d better wake up because that’s exactly what this country is suffering from.

I call it social decay because our society is slipping away as a result of the actions of our government. Much of which without the public’s approval.

Which is why we need to have the utmost faith in the principles that started this country. Not deviate from them.

eyeguy507 wrote:

4 semi auto handguns loaded in a backpack would inflict just as much carnage.

I’ve been thinking the same thing since day 1.

eyeguy507 wrote:

I think you missed the point. Have there been mass head buttings at schools? Did some nutjob kick 20 kids to death? Did any of these incidents have a knife wielding psycho trying to slash our kids? Taking away the AR’s does zero. 4 semi auto handguns loaded in a backpack would inflict just as much carnage. It will happen again in another couple months unless something is done soon.

You need to cut down the quoted post so we know better who you’re responding to. Was your post directed to me? I’m well aware that handguns or shotguns can inflict damage in a “school shooting” type setting. My point was to the person I quoted, that rifles/carbines that fit so called “assault rifle” definitions are responsible for less than 250-400 homicides per year depending on your source. Fists, headbutts, knees, and kicks kill more people than so called assault rifles annually. Handguns are responsible for over 80% of firearms homicides and a majority of firearms suicides. “ban assault rifles” is just a feel good measure pushed by gun control advocates and flannel shirt wearing Fudds better known as “butters.” “I support the second amendment but” “i’m a hunter and grew up around guns but“

biggill wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>eyeguy507 wrote:</div>
4 semi auto handguns loaded in a backpack would inflict just as much carnage.

I’ve been thinking the same thing since day 1.

Then why not apply the same rules to the AR?

In Florida there’s a 3-day wait to purchase a handgun and you must be 21. Any 18 year old can walk right up to the counter, pass a quick background check and walk out with an AR-15, ammo, and high capacity mags.

as·sault
əˈsôlt/
verb

1.
make a physical attack on.

2.
a concerted attempt to do something demanding.
“a winter assault on Mt. Everest”

Impossible for any gun to do, single shot or fully auto… or any knife for that matter.

mojogunter wrote:

Any idea of how many people of interest are reported to local officials, and then I would guess they in turn forward information to the FBI if it deems valid in a year? I would guess the number is a ridiculously high number, that number is only going skyrocket. That and funding for the state department, and the FBI are being cut just seems to me as the problem is going to get worse.

Did you check out my link where the FBI openly admitted dropping the ball on this one for NO apparent reason. Yeah there’s hundreds of wack jobs out there and I’m sure the tip-line is ringing as I type this but maybe a simple call from them to local law would’ve proved this guy was an issue then they could have stepped in

Someone mentioned earlier that the USA isn’t the greatest country in the world anymore. If that’s what you think, what country would you rather live in and why?

More on point and a broader question, what do you guys think about Trump endorsing a ban on bump stocks today? Good idea?

Sure. Make the ban. You can use your belt loop and thumb to do the same thing as a bump stock. It’s not a complicated accessory.

I think the Chainsaw bayonet should be banned as well.

A podcast personality that I follow quite closely, posted that while the latest shooting it is a huge tragedy, if people knew how many school age kids killed themselves each year they would be mortified.

I took it upon myself to look this up. Since 1990, 346 people have been killed in school shootings. This covers all age school incidents and includes employees shooting employees, gang-related targeted events, mass shootings etc.

In 2015 alone, 2061 kids 15-19 killed themselves per the CDC. Nearly 6 times as many in a single year as the amount of school shootings in a 28 year period. Absolutely mortifying. If you were to believe that 25% of these were because the kid was bullied, tormented, assaulted by other kids (and I think 25% is certainly on the low side) then these should be classified as secondary murders. This would mean that 500+ kids a year take their own lives because of how they are treated.

I agree that something needs to be done, but to classify this as anything other than a social problem, in my opinion, is wrong. There is so much hate directed towards each other on a daily basis, that we as a population need to change. Parents need to lead by example and then strongly discipline their children when they find out they are bullying, tormenting, etc. other children. It starts at home. Period.

john23 wrote:

Someone mentioned earlier that the USA isn’t the greatest country in the world anymore. If that’s what you think, what country would you rather live in and why?

More on point and a broader question, what do you guys think about Trump endorsing a ban on bump stocks today? Good idea?

I said it but never said I didn’t want to live here.

Our president said it as well.

jake47 wrote:

A podcast personality that I follow quite closely, posted that while the latest shooting it is a huge tragedy, if people knew how many school age kids killed themselves each year they would be mortified.

I took it upon myself to look this up. Since 1990, 346 people have been killed in school shootings. This covers all age school incidents and includes employees shooting employees, gang-related targeted events, mass shootings etc.

In 2015 alone, 2061 kids 15-19 killed themselves per the CDC. Nearly 6 times as many in a single year as the amount of school shootings in a 28 year period. Absolutely mortifying. If you were to believe that 25% of these were because the kid was bullied, tormented, assaulted by other kids (and I think 25% is certainly on the low side) then these should be classified as secondary murders. This would mean that 500+ kids a year take their own lives because of how they are treated.

I agree that something needs to be done, but to classify this as anything other than a social problem, in my opinion, is wrong. There is so much hate directed towards each other on a daily basis, that we as a population need to change. Parents need to lead by example and then strongly discipline their children when they find out they are bullying, tormenting, etc. other children. It starts at home. Period.

It’s amazing how we focus so much on the issues that result in the more significant emotional response. Or is it?

I’ll go back to my original rant in this thread looking at our media. Death sells. Not just death, violent death. You don’t think the media and sponsors are making out on this? Talk about moral decay. Where’s the talk about that?

Well, guns are easier to understand. The mass media and social media is dumbing down our people.

The bump stock by itself, cannot hurt anyone… just as the rifle cannot. It is a “feel good” measure being taken by the President… I would go so far as to call it “crumbs” to appease those who blame the inanimate object and not the real problems. Ignoring the real issue again… I hope people do not go silent because of the bump stock… that is not going to give any relief to a troubled youth.

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

FBI that caused the attacker to want to kill people.

Nor was it the gun. That’s just it, more gun regulations are making anyone safer now. The guns are out there. It just sickens me that they dropped the ball and even though it is being discussed, it’s being being washed over by all the other talk. That’s my fear.