How Can We Keep Our Schools Safe?

fishthumper wrote:

First of all you say you’ll take the tragedy of 6 over 30 any day. I’m not sure how that would be of any comfort to the Families of those 6, or how much comfort it would be to you if one of those 6 would be one your Family members.

I said it right there, still a tragedy either way, but if measures could be taken to reduce how many lives are lost, how can anyone oppose that? I konw that’s no consolation to the families. Again, this is the ‘well this isn’t a 100% solution so we shouldn’t do it’. I’m personally all for incremental steps that could reduce the probability and/or severity of these events.

fishthumper wrote:

You and others put so much into the weapon used here. I’m not sure how much knowledge you or other Anti gun people out there have About weapons. Tell me how a AR with a Several Hi Capacity Mag’s ( lets say 30 rounds) is any different than 2 Handguns ( one in each hand ) loaded with Hi capacity Mag’s ( Lets say 25 rounds each ) or Worse yet a Shotgun with a magazine extension tube loaded with 00Buck ( 10 rounds in tube with each shell loaded 15 pellets ) The shotgun with buckshot is sending 150 Projectiles down range with each 10 shots fired.

Really? Can you accurately shoot and then quickly reload two handguns at one time(one of which is in your non-dominant hand)? I’m probably using the AR term wrong, so I give you that, but ARs are MUCH easier to shoot accurately and you can go through rounds extremely quickly with little to no practice or expertise.

There’s a reason AR style weapons are chosen often for this type of event. They are extremely effective, quick to fire, accurate, and fast to reload.

Haven’t seen such a shotgun be used in any of these types of situations, so I haven’t thought about that. But my guy reaction is the same as some of the stuff I’ve said before, make it a lot harder to obtain something that turns your 5 shot shotgun you use for hunting/sporting clays/home defense into a bonafide devastating weapon.

Also, I am not anti gun. My family owns guns and I’ve never said that all guns should be taken away? Again, limiting probability or severity.

fishthumper wrote:

If every AR was rounded up and destroyed today. That would not stop a mentally ill person with the desire to Kill people from doing so. Only change the weapon he chose to do it with. Possibly a weapon with even more destructive potential. Other firearm types, a homemade bomb ( Think crowded movie theater ) a 4 Wheel Drive Truck ( Think Crowded parade )

Yes? I mean I agree. No where have I mentioned that more restrictions on AR type weapons or high capacity accessories or anything like that stops these events from happening. Again though, there’s a reason that people don’t use homemade bombs as often. They don’t have the expertise, or google/the government could track who’s searching ‘how to build a bomb to blow up a mall’, meanwhile an extremely efficient killing machine is available to them with little wait or trouble and little tracking or questioning?

Brian Klawitter wrote:

I don’t care to use the words “Left” and “Right” but can’t think of anything else to describe this.

The modern day Gun debate:

Left: Do something!

Right: Okay, we’ll provide a voluntary avenue for teachers who receive training and a license to carry a concealed firearm on school grounds, and establish a program where experienced professionals (like Veterans and retired Police Officers) provide security for the school.

Left: No!

Right: Okay, Do you have have any ideas or propositions that could bring positive change, that’s based on evidence, that you would like to bring to the table?

Left: All you do is talk! We need to do something! Ban all guns now or you hate children!

Where is the evidence that armed teachers reduce school shootings? Sorry Brian, but I can create the exact scenario with left and right flipped. Plenty of people from the left have brought up ideas to help(no one idea will be a full solution), just like plenty of people from the right have ideas.

I do agree that more security measures should be taken, I don’t know if I agree with arming teachers because damn do we already ask a lot of them for very little compensation, but if more security reduces the probability or severity of these incidents I’m all for it.

I would like to bring up that oftentimes the shooters in these scenarios are walking in expecting to die. I doubt many feel they are going to get away with it, they know that once the cops/SWAT team show up their life is over. So I don’t know if a security guard or armed teacher is going to ‘make them think twice’. Also, if you’re the teacher that pops your head out of the door and fires a few handgun rounds at the shooter and miss, do you immediately doom yourself and all the kids in your classroom? Instead of barricading their rooms or whatever the standard procedure is?

big_g wrote:

I see all these kids marching in “protests” for gun control. To them I say… next time that kid with the funny off brand shoes, walks by in the hall, don’t make snide remarks and point at them and laugh… just shut up or say Hi. Maybe instead of poking fun at the kid with the birth deformity, invite them into your little clique and make them feel welcome in their own school. Next time you hear one of your classmates, say that so and so is “nuts” and gonna go ballistic, tell the teacher… don’t wait so you can tell CNN all about it later. You can do something, in fact you can do the most. Be the change you want to see, I know I was part of the problem in school too, kid’s can make it a very mean place. Stop marching and start mattering.

I must say, this goes against the ‘boys will be boys’ or ‘when I grew up we got bullied and we are stronger for it’, ‘kids are snowflakes these days’ viewpoint I’ve seen on this forum many times, I honestly didn’t expect this POV from you big_g but I applaud you for it.

As someone else mentioned, this is a big cultural shift that would obviously take time, but absolutely is the(or one of) the changes needed.

The difference I see is back when I was in school… the kids went home at 3pm and the bullying stopped for awhile… with social media, it is now 24/7… no relief. Lots of good conversations here… maybe this time something gets done.

Police officers around the country are being re-trained on how to deal with active shooter situations; waiting for more officers to surround a building or waiting for swat causes more gunshot victims to die due to bleeding out. School resource officers need the same training and kit that beat cops get. plate carrier and carbine in a locker or cruiser. I’m not going to sit here and pretend that I know what that officer was going through in his mind, a resource officer who has had ???? level of training with a 9mm pistol, probably feeling helpless with a 9mm and a soft kevlar vest; and this is the exact reason that if we aren’t going to have layered armed security in our schools, our resource officers need to at least have plates and long gun access.

mplspug wrote:

I’m not being argumentative with you, I know it could sound like that, but you are being reasonable in your reply.
It’s the multiple levels of failure that has me frustrated with the whole situation.

I didn’t take it as arguing at all. I shouldn’t have commented on this in the first place without knowing all the details. The sheriff press conference was talked about and replayed on two radio morning shows I listened to on my commute and it sounded pretty bad.

I’m very happy this thread has continued as these topics need to be discussed until we find a solution. The incident not so much, we need to talk about the root cause and how we move forward and protect our children.

I have read this entire thread and kept following it over the last few days.
Obviously we all have our beliefs and our opinions on what might help this problem we have in our country.
I truly believe in our 2nd amendment and it’s intended purpose.
I also personally believe that if you remove 1 of the tools that a “killer” uses, he will find another or different tool to carry out their intended purpose.
The thing is, maybe that “other tool” will not be as efficient or as fast at killing as the Assault type weapon. I’m not talking about a bomb, we all know that is about as efficient as they come.

I am not advocating outlawing AR’s or any semi auto rifles. However, they should be harder to get for most people. I’m really not talking about your everyday Savage 270 deer rifle, etc.. but I don’t know where the line needs to be drawn.
It’s a very slippery slope because if really more about the capacity of shells that it can hold and shoot versus the type to model or brand of gun.
BUT, Here are a couple of my thoughts.
1.Why not a 6 month waiting period?
AFTER all background checks through various state and federal agencies.
Possible medical evaluations?
2.Why not make them cost prohibitive for most average people to even afford?
If you REALLY want one, you’ll need to save up for one.
3.I am not for more taxes but what about a ” high” tax on them and the tax money goes to training, education and also to treatment of mentally ill individuals
4. High capacity magazines special order ONLY and again must pass the same rigorous background checks and waiting periods.
5. Must be trained and certified by professional instructors.
6. Raise the minimum age to buy them.

This would not infringe on our rights. No one that can legally purchase these firearms would have any of their rights taken away. They would just have to work a little bit harder and wait a little bit longer to get it.
It would make these firearms much more difficult for most people that commit these crime to afford, they wouldn’t want to wait that long and many wouldn’t want to jump through all of the red tape to get one.
I know what some will say and I agree, they will probably just buy one off the street. I mean, They are a criminal after all. But at least this might deter 1 or 3 or 10 of them from buying a high capacity, fast shooting firearm and going into a facility of any kind and killing so many.

Given how the ar platforms are being sold in every kind of store imaginable its not likely the government can effectively ban them and recover 100% of them. However, the high volume clips can be controlled. The state has the power to enact legislation that could state that the only place a high volume clip would be legal to possess is at a legitimate gun range and then only one at a time. Not in the field hunting prairie dogs or deer. Not out on the farm plinking. On a federal level, these high volume clips could require a background search as well as registering just like a gun and they could also outlaw the sales of the ars and high volume clips at gun shows unless full background searches and registrations were completed.

If these guns/clips are harder to acquire in the first place it will be easier to know who has them and or who is interested in them. I’m all for getting them off the streets and biting down on private ownership. They have no place in the woods or a rifle range unless they have a 3 shot clip. People wanting to hear 30 rounds in 12 seconds should enlist in the military.

Tom Sawvell wrote:

Given how the ar platforms are being sold in every kind of store imaginable its not likely the government can effectively ban them and recover 100% of them. However, the high volume clips can be controlled. The state has the power to enact legislation that could state that the only place a high volume clip would be legal to possess is at a legitimate gun range and then only one at a time. Not in the field hunting prairie dogs or deer. Not out on the farm plinking. On a federal level, these high volume clips could require a background search as well as registering just like a gun and they could also outlaw the sales of the ars and high volume clips at gun shows unless full background searches and registrations were completed.

If these guns/clips are harder to acquire in the first place it will be easier to know who has them and or who is interested in them. I’m all for getting them off the streets and biting down on private ownership. They have no place in the woods or a rifle range unless they have a 3 shot clip. People wanting to hear 30 rounds in 12 seconds should enlist in the military.

Tom,
I guess that is more about where I was trying to go with my comments. But you summed it up better.

How can you only possess a high volume clip at only a gun range? It is in your possession it where ever it is.

And if I’m out plunkin I want a high volume clip. That means I don’t have to carry a pocket full of ammo. Also I use a 10 shot clip deer hunting. For the same reason.

All the recent shootings were planed. Nobody went from the gun store directly to a school or nightclub. So a waiting period would only be so effective.

Once again what you are suggesting would be ignored by someone wanting to do harm to others. For the most part these laws only restrict law abiding citizens.

gizmoguy wrote:

How can you only possess a high volume clip at only a gun range? It is in your possession it where ever it is.

And if I’m out plunkin I want a high volume clip. That means I don’t have to carry a pocket full of ammo. Also I use a 10 shot clip deer hunting. For the same reason.

All the recent shootings were planed. Nobody went from the gun store directly to a school or nightclub. So a waiting period would only be so effective.

Once again what you are suggesting would be ignored by someone wanting to do harm to others. For the most part these laws only restrict law abiding citizens.

I understand that you wouldn’t want to carry 5, 10 15, 20 loose shells in your jacket pocket. I wouldn’t either but for the betterment of our society we may just have to. It may be an inconvenience but so is having to fill my car with gas once a week when it’s -6 degrees outside. I wish my gas tank held 60 gallons, but it doesn’t.
can’t argue with much of what you said in your second two statements. But I would argue that my ideas above could stop at least a couple of shootings a year. And that is just ONE of 25 different approaches that could be taken with regards to addressing the mental illness, video games, social media, mainstream media, bullying, PROPER PARENTING, the medical field, education in schools, etc.. anything that we can do in EVERY aspect of life will help.
Nothing will stop this. But we can reduce it.

bitzenguy wrote:

I am not advocating outlawing AR’s or any semi auto rifles. However, they should be harder to get for most people. I’m really not talking about your everyday Savage 270 deer rifle, etc.. but I don’t know where the line needs to be drawn.
It’s a very slippery slope

Appreciate that you gave ideas. More than most that just say ban them. But I strongly disagree with many of your points. First and foremost, the AR platform is just that big scary black gun to most. Civilian versions are simply semi-‘s that are easy to add accessories and not Assault Rifles which are already banned from civilian purchases. But, for your “everyday Savage 270 deer rifle” in a semi-auto, you can buy a rail system for attaching accessories – See pic below – making your every day Remington or savage a scary black gun.
Additionally, you can buy a CCU for your Glock, 1911,… that simply accepts your lower and imediately convert a handgun to a rifle. Only difference is you are now sending your projectile down a longer barrel for increased accuracy at greater distance

BUT, Here are a couple of my thoughts.
1.Why not a 6 month waiting period?
So, someone like me burns up a rifle from target use and I have to wait 6 months to replace it??? Do I get a loner to use in the meanwhile for predator or varmint hunting?
AFTER all background checks through various state and federal agencies.
Possible medical evaluations?
2.Why not make them cost prohibitive for most average people to even afford?
Who gets the additional profit margin?? So we create an environment where only the “rich” can have them. We all know that 99.999% of firearm owners are responsible law abiding folks. Its ok to discriminate based on income level? It ok for a rich person to have the opportunity, but not the lower income person that may have better skill-sets and ability—or possibly a better appreciation for the weapon?

If you REALLY want one, you’ll need to save up for one.
3.I am not for more taxes but what about a ” high” tax on them and the tax money goes to training, education and also to treatment of mentally ill individuals. Are you talking about taxing EVERY semi-auto? Sorry, I pay enough taxes. I’m open to paying a extra $2-$5.00 on a Background check as a one time fee. But a recurring tax is BS when talking aboput taxing something that most don’t even know the definition of.
4. High capacity magazines special order ONLY and again must pass the same rigorous background checks and waiting periods.
Define High Capacity please – scary that again we see a term tossed out with no definition. When I go P/dog shooting, I have every mag I own loaded. Its common for me to go through 250-500 rounds. BUT – maybe it should be looked at a restriction on TIME for swapping out a mag. I can drop a mag and insert a fresh one Hollywood style. Since I own a crap load of 10 round mags, I could disperse 100 rounds a minute if I wanted to waste the ammo. However, I hate loading mags in the field. Its dangerous to think about cactus, sage, or other debris easily injected into my firearm based on the dirty environment of which I am operating. To me this is the most slippery slope. Defining “high Capacity”. Where will it end. Eliminate the 100 round mags, to 50, then that’s too many so it gets cut to 30, then cut to 20, then cut to 5, then we are all restricted to a single shot. ONE SHOT FROM A CRIMINAL IS WAY TOO DAM MUCH. YOU WILL NEVER – NEVER – EVER STOP THAT.

5. Must be trained and certified by professional instructors.
Surprisingly, the number of people that go through a safety program of some capacity is quite high. I don’t have exact statistics, so I won’t even guess. I’m a manufacture Rep and i work with dealers throughout IL and WI, and out firm handles TX up through MN. So, as you can imagine, there are a freaking huge amount of dealers in this territory. Of those, there are a lot of sportsmen shooting clubs, ranges, and indoor ranges and are absolutely swamped with training classes in addition to the general hunter safety classes. I am all for increasing individual safety skills and see that in a general sense this will aide in the prevention of some accidents.
6. Raise the minimum age to buy them.
Band aide – Kids(say under 21 YOA) get their parents, steal one, borrow a friends, received it as a gift…and that list will go on and on. where there is a will – there is a way. And if they can’t get a semi-auto rifle, what’s to prevent them from using a pump action? I fear a 12guage pump with buckshot a hell of a lot more than a crazed person with a .223/.556. 12-15 projectiles in 1 shot Vs 1 projectile per shot

This would not infringe on our rights. No one that can legally purchase these firearms would have any of their rights taken away. They would just have to work a little bit harder and wait a little bit longer to get it.
It would make these firearms much more difficult for most people that commit these crime to afford, they wouldn’t want to wait that long and many wouldn’t want to jump through all of the red tape to get one.
I know what some will say and I agree, they will probably just buy one off the street. I mean, They are a criminal after all. But at least this might deter 1 or 3 or 10 of them from buying a high capacity, fast shooting firearm and going into a facility of any kind and killing so many.

Most likely just encourage them to use a different tool if they can not get their tool of choice. Remember, the AR platform is the largest selling rifle platform, therefore they are considered about the most desirable and popular to own. Therefore it only reasons that it would be the most commonly used firearm in a crime. As an example, if consumers bought 100 to 1 Fords Vs Chevy, you would expect more drunks killing people with a Ford than a Chevy. Or if Buck knives sold 1000 to 1 compared to all other knives, you can expect more stabbings to occur with a Buck knife than all others

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Randy Wieland wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>bitzenguy wrote:</div>
I am not advocating outlawing AR’s or any semi auto rifles. However, they should be harder to get for most people. I’m really not talking about your everyday Savage 270 deer rifle, etc.. but I don’t know where the line needs to be drawn.
It’s a very slippery slope

Appreciate that you gave ideas. More than most that just say ban them. But I strongly disagree with many of your points. First and foremost, the AR platform is just that big scary black gun to most. Civilian versions are simply semi-‘s that are easy to add accessories and not Assault Rifles which are already banned from civilian purchases. But, for your “everyday Savage 270 deer rifle” in a semi-auto, you can buy a rail system for attaching accessories – See pic below – making your every day Remington or savage a scary black gun.
Additionally, you can buy a CCU for your Glock, 1911,… that simply accepts your lower and imediately convert a handgun to a rifle. Only difference is you are now sending your projectile down a longer barrel for increased accuracy at greater distance

BUT, Here are a couple of my thoughts.
1.Why not a 6 month waiting period?
So, someone like me burns up a rifle from target use and I have to wait 6 months to replace it??? Do I get a loner to use in the meanwhile for predator or varmint hunting?
AFTER all background checks through various state and federal agencies.
Possible medical evaluations?
2.Why not make them cost prohibitive for most average people to even afford?
Who gets the additional profit margin?? So we create an environment where only the “rich” can have them. We all know that 99.999% of firearm owners are responsible law abiding folks. Its ok to discriminate based on income level? It ok for a rich person to have the opportunity, but not the lower income person that may have better skill-sets and ability—or possibly a better appreciation for the weapon?

If you REALLY want one, you’ll need to save up for one.
3.I am not for more taxes but what about a ” high” tax on them and the tax money goes to training, education and also to treatment of mentally ill individuals. Are you talking about taxing EVERY semi-auto? Sorry, I pay enough taxes. I’m open to paying a extra $2-$5.00 on a Background check as a one time fee. But a recurring tax is BS when talking aboput taxing something that most don’t even know the definition of.
4. High capacity magazines special order ONLY and again must pass the same rigorous background checks and waiting periods.
Define High Capacity please – scary that again we see a term tossed out with no definition. When I go P/dog shooting, I have every mag I own loaded. Its common for me to go through 250-500 rounds. BUT – maybe it should be looked at a restriction on TIME for swapping out a mag. I can drop a mag and insert a fresh one Hollywood style. Since I own a crap load of 10 round mags, I could disperse 100 rounds a minute if I wanted to waste the ammo. However, I hate loading mags in the field. Its dangerous to think about cactus, sage, or other debris easily injected into my firearm based on the dirty environment of which I am operating. To me this is the most slippery slope. Defining “high Capacity”. Where will it end. Eliminate the 100 round mags, to 50, then that’s too many so it gets cut to 30, then cut to 20, then cut to 5, then we are all restricted to a single shot. ONE SHOT FROM A CRIMINAL IS WAY TOO DAM MUCH. YOU WILL NEVER – NEVER – EVER STOP THAT.

5. Must be trained and certified by professional instructors.
Surprisingly, the number of people that go through a safety program of some capacity is quite high. I don’t have exact statistics, so I won’t even guess. I’m a manufacture Rep and i work with dealers throughout IL and WI, and out firm handles TX up through MN. So, as you can imagine, there are a freaking huge amount of dealers in this territory. Of those, there are a lot of sportsmen shooting clubs, ranges, and indoor ranges and are absolutely swamped with training classes in addition to the general hunter safety classes. I am all for increasing individual safety skills and see that in a general sense this will aide in the prevention of some accidents.
6. Raise the minimum age to buy them.
Band aide – Kids(say under 21 YOA) get their parents, steal one, borrow a friends, received it as a gift…and that list will go on and on. where there is a will – there is a way. And if they can’t get a semi-auto rifle, what’s to prevent them from using a pump action? I fear a 12guage pump with buckshot a hell of a lot more than a crazed person with a .223/.556. 12-15 projectiles in 1 shot Vs 1 projectile per shot

This would not infringe on our rights. No one that can legally purchase these firearms would have any of their rights taken away. They would just have to work a little bit harder and wait a little bit longer to get it.
It would make these firearms much more difficult for most people that commit these crime to afford, they wouldn’t want to wait that long and many wouldn’t want to jump through all of the red tape to get one.
I know what some will say and I agree, they will probably just buy one off the street. I mean, They are a criminal after all. But at least this might deter 1 or 3 or 10 of them from buying a high capacity, fast shooting firearm and going into a facility of any kind and killing so many.

Most likely just encourage them to use a different tool if they can not get their tool of choice. Remember, the AR platform is the largest selling rifle platform, therefore they are considered about the most desirable and popular to own. Therefore it only reasons that it would be the most commonly used firearm in a crime. As an example, if consumers bought 100 to 1 Fords Vs Chevy, you would expect more drunks killing people with a Ford than a Chevy. Or if Buck knives sold 1000 to 1 compared to all other knives, you can expect more stabbings to occur with a Buck knife than all others

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Randy,
I guess I will just keep my thoughts and ideas to myself and so should the rest of the country because many people will always come up with a reason to not change anything ever.
I’m sure you’re not wrong in your comments above. I would be in no position to dispute you.
I will stay out of the rest of this conversation.

Bitzenguy – please don’t feel like you have to remove yourself from the conversion. For the record, I agree with you.

Randy – I respect your position and much of what you have to say. Nobody is saying you can’t own your ARs but I think it’s come to the point where you might have to face some slight inconvienences to continue your hobbies.

We don’t just hand out pilots licenses. You have to work hard to prove you are capable of handling the responsiblity of flying a plane. I think should you have to put in some effort to own a weapon of this caliber.

This is only one prong, of a multi-prong approach that I’ve previously outlined. We need to take some measures to protect our children – plain and simple.

bitzenguy wrote:

Randy,
I guess I will just keep my thoughts and ideas to myself and so should the rest of the country because many people will always come up with a reason to not change anything ever.
I’m sure you’re not wrong in your comments above. I would be in no position to dispute you.
I will stay out of the rest of this conversation.

That is the absolute worse reaction I could imagine. Don’t walk away and stick your head in the sand. Keep putting your ideas out there. That is the only way a debate works. I know the ideas I have contributed are both good and bad. Some agree with them and other’s think I’m nuts…so be it. No sense in getting butt hurt over a debate. Maybe you have an expanded idea on one of those points that would really contribute to helping society and all firearm owners. Like any concept or idea given, it takes give-take from us all and every idea should be looked at from every angle to make sure it is the most suitable. Maybe I’m too selfish in wanting to protect the rights of 99.9999% Vs the .0001 of a percent that does the crimes????

Randy, I get what you are saying man, I really do. New regulations would absolutely make it more of a headache to obtain guns/ammunition/whatever for you and others whom firearms represent a large part of their life/livelihood. But I hope you realize that some of that sounds like, ‘but new regulations would make my totally life sustaining prairie dog hunts more inconvenient, which is more important than kids returning from school safely.’ If these things resulted in you shooting 100 prairie dog instead of 200, excuse me for saying….SO WHAT!?!

I get your concern about blowing out a rifle and not having a backup, maybe expedited background checks for existing gun owners or owners who’ve already gone through the process could exist? I think the idea here is when Johnny Pile, age 18 decides life isn’t worth living anymore, we make sure there is an extended waiting period/background check/something to make sure he’s not walking out the door with a gun immediately.

No one is saying new regulations would immediately stop school shootings, just like armed teachers wouldn’t, or any other idea. But at this point we need to work on reducing frequency and severity. If we wait until we’ve found a perfect solution, we’ll be waiting a long time.

The 2nd amendment is not even remotely concerned with hunting and plinking. Just like the 1st amendment was not written to protect porn…

Just an FYI. The term clip and magazine have been bandied about quite a bit. There is a difference. The first pic is a standard Remington mag from a semi auto or pump loading rifle. The second actually shows a clip and a magazine side by side. I’ve never seen a clip hold more than 10 rounds. They may be out there, but I haven’t seen them.

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philtickelson wrote:

If these things resulted in you shooting 100 prairie dog instead of 200, excuse me for saying….SO WHAT!?!
Oh, I agree entirely on protecting children and I know when solutions are proposed, I will be impacted. That is part of being in a society and not in total isolation.

Ya, I take some of the proposed ideas a bit personal. Won’t deny it. None of the follow equates to the value of a child’s life, but read through to understand where I’m going with this. I was born/raised in a family that’s previous generation was nearly self-sufficient. Trapping was a significant part of income on the year. Fishing/Hunting meant food was in the freezer. Your reputation was worth its weight in gold. You earned the respect of the neighbors and your fellow man.
Over the last 40+ years of actively hunting/trapping I have encountered many changes, laws, regulations… In nearly every case, its been unknowledgeable people dictating the change and somehow getting a “quick-fix” law passed. Unfortunately, law abiding people continue to get restricted and nothing changes. So ya, the inconvenience of restricted conibear traps doesn’t compare to a value of a child. But I have watched this template play out over and over again in so many different ways. We want a solution to something that hopefully we can reduce and have to understand and accept that will never be 100% fool proof. When we are addressing restrictions/regulations to control less than 1/100th of ONE percent of the population, do you really think we can achieve 100% success rate???

I get your concern about blowing out a rifle and not having a backup, maybe expedited background checks for existing gun owners or owners who’ve already gone through the process could exist?
This was my point on expanding. I’m very favorable to creating a method for expedited checks and think its worth exploring what would make this a viable option.

I think the idea here is when Johnny Pile, age 18 decides life isn’t worth living anymore, we make sure there is an extended waiting period/background check/something to make sure he’s not walking out the door with a gun immediately.
Go to a 3 day wait like handguns for all firearms? Why urine around with just AR platforms. I don’t understand why so many other firearms are over-looked ; other than the media screaming ASSAULT, ASSAULT… So many other firearms are capable of MASS destruction in the wrong person’s hands.

No one is saying new regulations would immediately stop school shootings, just like armed teachers wouldn’t, or any other idea. But at this point we need to work on reducing frequency and severity. If we wait until we’ve found a perfect solution, we’ll be waiting a long time.

Agree 100%. We need a band aide to stop the bleeding first. Problem is you will have the vast majority of people arguing against it. Also, look at how many short term solutions become long term freakin nightmares in the country. Next you need the LONG TERM solution. Which by default in history will be the remnants of the band aide from the short term solution.

The worse part of all of this is that we don’t have one politician in place that doesn’t have their head so far up their freakin azz. Everyone of those idiots will dance the party line BS. We need a real man (not gender specific)to step up to unite. Imagine if not everything had to be an argument.

What if POTUS ordered every Rep & Senator to conduct town halls in their rural and urban states and come back in 30 days with drafts of 1. Immediate acceptable solutions that would only be carried out for 24 months ??? as a short term solution to reduce the problem AND Bring forth a long term solution to be in place. First politician to point fingers or call out a partyline BS if FIRED without benefits or further compensation.

I have a 13 yo girl.

I am more concerned for her safety when I drive her back from the airport than I am with her attending school. Or frankly anytime she is in a vehicle.
Heck guys, the poop I do on the river as flipping dangerous as you’ll think it is, isn’t nearly as dangerous as driving to work. And it is only dangerous to ME and not others around me.

Accidents in high numbers have been acceptable in a vehicle. Sober. Due to horribly unsafe driving becoming acceptable regular behavior.

People die in small numbers often and add do to big numbers.

Should be illegal to tailgate so closely and drive like a maniac. Yet most you City folks would call me a panzy for not tailgating with confidence. Everyone is looking out for themselves on the road with little concern for others. You don’t see the person driving in front of you as a person. You see them as an object. Picture you mother or daughter in front of you on the road. Will you still honk and push and tailgate them? They’re people like you and your family… All of them.

1,600 children under the age of 15 are killed in car accidents each year. Over 2 million injured.

I don’t recall shootings numbers but I do know they aren’t more than a squirt of urine in a bucket in comparison.

I don’t care much about school shootings when we allow people to drive thousands of pounds recklessly at high speeds at your children and family everyday.

The social media is full of hated lately. Full of nasty comments that none of you would say in an open room to a person. Shame on those participating as a bully.

Peace out.

big_g wrote:

The difference I see is back when I was in school… the kids went home at 3pm and the bullying stopped for awhile… with social media, it is now 24/7… no relief. Lots of good conversations here… maybe this time something gets done.

This is spot on. I think we’ve come along way as a culture trying to call out and stop bullying, but at the same time it’s easier than ever to make someone’s life miserable.

Randy Wieland wrote:

If these things resulted in you shooting 100 prairie dog instead of 200, excuse me for saying….SO WHAT!?!
Oh, I agree entirely on protecting children and I know when solutions are proposed, I will be impacted. That is part of being in a society and not in total isolation.

Ya, I take some of the proposed ideas a bit personal. Won’t deny it. None of the follow equates to the value of a child’s life, but read through to understand where I’m going with this. I was born/raised in a family that’s previous generation was nearly self-sufficient. Trapping was a significant part of income on the year. Fishing/Hunting meant food was in the freezer. Your reputation was worth its weight in gold. You earned the respect of the neighbors and your fellow man.
Over the last 40+ years of actively hunting/trapping I have encountered many changes, laws, regulations… In nearly every case, its been unknowledgeable people dictating the change and somehow getting a “quick-fix” law passed. Unfortunately, law abiding people continue to get restricted and nothing changes. So ya, the inconvenience of restricted conibear traps doesn’t compare to a value of a child. But I have watched this template play out over and over again in so many different ways. We want a solution to something that hopefully we can reduce and have to understand and accept that will never be 100% fool proof. When we are addressing restrictions/regulations to control less than 1/100th of ONE percent of the population, do you really think we can achieve 100% success rate???

I get ya Randy, you and my father in law would be two peas in a pod. I’ve been out trapping muskrat, beaver, otter, mink with him(those conibear 330s will never NOT scare the crap out of me) and while I don’t hunt much, I appreciate the lifestyle and hard work involved to being self sufficient through those means. These skills/lifestyles are absolutely becoming less common as generations come and go.

Whatever happens is going to probably create more hoops for you and others like you. I guess the only thing else I’d say is that the number of people who are truly living a self sufficient outdoorsman lifestyle is probably a very small % of total gun owners or US population(you would know this better than me). So while I know it’s important to stay connected to your history and roots, a lot of these activities will be viewed as ‘hobbies’ and not ‘livelihood’ to a lot of law makers or anti-gun folks.

Randy Wieland wrote:

I get your concern about blowing out a rifle and not having a backup, maybe expedited background checks for existing gun owners or owners who’ve already gone through the process could exist?
This was my point on expanding. I’m very favorable to creating a method for expedited checks and think its worth exploring what would make this a viable option.

I think the idea here is when Johnny Pile, age 18 decides life isn’t worth living anymore, we make sure there is an extended waiting period/background check/something to make sure he’s not walking out the door with a gun immediately.
Go to a 3 day wait like handguns for all firearms? Why urine around with just AR platforms. I don’t understand why so many other firearms are over-looked ; other than the media screaming ASSAULT, ASSAULT… So many other firearms are capable of MASS destruction in the wrong person’s hands.

Agreed! I don’t understand why firearm purchases don’t have a longer waiting period, more background checks, more tracking of owners/purchasers, etc. I’m definitely guilty of focusing on the AR platform too much, but I do wonder if widespread adoption of this type of thing across all firearms is just too big of a rock to push. Start with AR platform if there’s momentum and move on to the other ones next?

The AR will continue to be under fire as long as they continue to be the weapon of choice for these killers. I again believe htey are the choice because of their ease of availability and ease of use/modification. I’m not a seasoned shooter like yourself, but you’d probably agree that it’s a lot easier to be consistently accurate(while maintaining a high rate of fire) with one of these ARs than a high caliber handgun.

I get what you are saying though, other firearms are just as capable of killing people, no doubt about it, but there isn’t momentum around them because there isn’t a lot of mass shootings happening with black powder rifles or .30-06 rifles. If there were, you’d here anti-gun protests centered around them as well.

big_g wrote:

No one is saying new regulations would immediately stop school shootings, just like armed teachers wouldn’t, or any other idea. But at this point we need to work on reducing frequency and severity. If we wait until we’ve found a perfect solution, we’ll be waiting a long time.

Agree 100%. We need a band aide to stop the bleeding first. Problem is you will have the vast majority of people arguing against it. Also, look at how many short term solutions become long term freakin nightmares in the country. Next you need the LONG TERM solution. Which by default in history will be the remnants of the band aide from the short term solution.

The worse part of all of this is that we don’t have one politician in place that doesn’t have their head so far up their freakin azz. Everyone of those idiots will dance the party line BS. We need a real man (not gender specific)to step up to unite. Imagine if not everything had to be an argument.

What if POTUS ordered every Rep & Senator to conduct town halls in their rural and urban states and come back in 30 days with drafts of 1. Immediate acceptable solutions that would only be carried out for 24 months ??? as a short term solution to reduce the problem AND Bring forth a long term solution to be in place. First politician to point fingers or call out a partyline BS if FIRED without benefits or further compensation.

I won’t argue with this, many facets of our political system seem broken in today’s world. What’s right for our country and our society seems to take a backseat to filing one’s pockets or ‘winning’ elections. That is on BOTH SIDES of the political spectrum.

I appreciate the engaging conversation!

Some facts,

Guns are out there.

High capacity clips are out there.

Mentally ill people are out there.

No law take’s everything away.

If someone is intent on destruction, no matter how hard it is to do/acquirer, these people seem to be good planners. They’ll find a way. If it’s dealing with the amount of collateral damage numbers vs a handgun or ar, when it’s thirteen vs seventeen with hand guns, guess what’s the next fear mongering tool to take away?

We all have opinions on gun control. Who’s right, who’s wrong? There’s a huge difference in the two sides and that gap will only be widening as these things happen. Look at gun/ammo sale’s when a democrat take’s office.

We need to find common ground and work together. I might totally disagree with your point of view on gun control, but I’m betting there’s a lot we can agree on.

Kids are more valuable than money or politicians imo. Protect them better. Find ways that are proactive vs reactive.

The second will be fought for and against. Agree to disagree and work at those things we agree on and together vs focusing attention on what’s a brick wall on both sides.

Educate yourself, read, study the constitution and history, look at ways to help mentally ill, ways to secure schools better, learn, listen and understand we all want our kids safe, but complete and utter safety is an illusion.

well said basseyes

It gets worse. Local police we’re surprised to find the resource officer and 3 other Broward county sheriff’s in the parking lot taking positions behind their cars with their guns drawn.

An off duty officer taking care off the grounds ran and helped victims in front of the school as soon as he heard shots. He had no side arm on him and was in a t shirt and shorts.

That sheriff is a peice of work.

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

I have a 13 yo girl.

I am more concerned for her safety when I drive her back from the airport than I am with her attending school. Or frankly anytime she is in a vehicle.
Heck guys, the poop I do on the river as flipping dangerous as you’ll think it is, isn’t nearly as dangerous as driving to work. And it is only dangerous to ME and not others around me.

Accidents in high numbers have been acceptable in a vehicle. Sober. Due to horribly unsafe driving becoming acceptable regular behavior.

People die in small numbers often and add do to big numbers.

Should be illegal to tailgate so closely and drive like a maniac. Yet most you City folks would call me a panzy for not tailgating with confidence. Everyone is looking out for themselves on the road with little concern for others. You don’t see the person driving in front of you as a person. You see them as an object. Picture you mother or daughter in front of you on the road. Will you still honk and push and tailgate them? They’re people like you and your family… All of them.

1,600 children under the age of 15 are killed in car accidents each year. Over 2 million injured.

I don’t recall shootings numbers but I do know they aren’t more than a squirt of urine in a bucket in comparison.

I don’t care much about school shootings when we allow people to drive thousands of pounds recklessly at high speeds at your children and family everyday.

The social media is full of hated lately. Full of nasty comments that none of you would say in an open room to a person. Shame on those participating as a bully.

Peace out.

Thank you FBRM for putting it into perspective. Gun violence sells today. It makes for a great story. Auto accidents, overdoses and suicide, not so much.

I will admit there’s a problem but I agree it’s not what it’s being made out to be.

Oh, I almost forgot. Those deaths are preventable too.

At least in the instance of this shooting some people came forward and made calls. I think the kids would be better served by coming together and asking for specific hotlines, both local and state and federal where they can call in with reports when they hear of some one making threats regardless of how casual they may seem.

After the fact we hear of so many instances where people, kids especially, were aware of volatile behavior being exhibited and did nothing. I know….the calls were made then lost to adults who buzzed the kids’ calls off. Calls have to become priority #1 and hot lines would be a super way to handle them. After all, many of these kids are in school with the shooters or have contact thru social circles and social media. Make the calls confidential and if ANY type of media contacts the caller or tries to dig out who the caller was….give all media related persons concerned in that contact or search of the caller a year in the slam and then ban them from any job in any media for life. I think kids would call in this stuff better if they knew they were being kept out of the public’s eye and that they had a shield from the media so their own social standing would not come under fire down the road.

Limiting the 2nd amendment for law abiding non crazy citizens will stop nothing. Find a way to diagnose the problem people and go from there. Unfortunately the gun grabbers have no intentions on solving the problem. They just want no guns. They have the publicity and momentum right now. We can only hope that our lawmakers see thru the fog of propaganda and lies.

I admire this entire thread for the level-headed opposing responses that have went down without turmoil.

Personally, I view this issue as a societal issue, not a weaponry issue…. many people here have articulated my thoughts much better than I have. Solutions to the big issues are above my pay grade, but IMO, creating a defense-free environment sure seems to be inviting vulnerability. I will choose to be ready to defend those I care about(and myself) when I can. Being vulnerable sure feels helpless, and that sux.

I saw this on another site and thought it was well thought out and worded….

” A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

It is well past time to regulate.

The NRA needs to overcome it’s fear of leftists, and work with congress to regulate the ownership of AR type rifles. Leftists want to ban all guns; they should not be part of writing regulations. Congress, and the NRA need to adhere to the constitution, and regulate ‘Arms’.

A regulation making it necessary to have a concealed carry permit to purchase AR type rifles, may have prevented most if not all school shootings. This regulation could be enacted rather quickly.

It is our constitutional right to bear arms, to own AR type rifles. Mine i use to hunt coyotes, rock chucks, prairie dogs, and turkey. It is great fun for us to blow up pop cans out ¼ mile, with my AR rifle.

Being a life member of the NRA; a gun owner, i understand the fear of the leftist agenda. The NRA has been stubborn, and strong resisting the agenda of the left. It is time the NRA became courageous, and helped congress regulate the ownership of AR type rifles. Well past time.

If an armed teacher is required to save children from a shooter, things have gone too far. A teacher with a pistol versus a maniac with a rifle, is not the best. It is far better to have stopped the shooter from being in the school armed with an AR.

A regulation making it necessary to have a concealed carry permit to purchase AR type rifles, may have prevented most if not all school shootings. This regulation could be enacted rather quickly.”

While I can agree with most of your statement (I am not a NRA member anymore) in context with the 2nd Amendment, Militia and People are two different groups. I see the word Infringed relating to People and regulated to Militia. I would agree that someone wanting to purchase high capacity magazines should have to be permitted… yeah it’s “infringing” but I can deal with that. No rifle has ever “assaulted” someone.. that is the slippery slope. And just to be clear, no person bent on doing harm will give 2 shakes about whatever “laws” we can come up with, simply, they don’t follow them… “law abiding” people do, which is not a whole lot of help. Again, my whole paragraph ignores mental health. Dam us.