How Can We Keep Our Schools Safe?

philtickelson wrote:

Will shootings still happen if AR type weapons are controlled more(longer wait period, 21+, I don’t know, whatever change you can think). Definitely. I personally think the, ‘This doesn’t 100% solve the problem so we shouldn’t consider it’ argument is pretty lame though. It’s another deflecting tactic like the one above, and it’s pretty transparent.

If you knew that someone was going to come into your child’s school tomorrow with a gun, would you rather they have a pistol with a standard magazine or an AR with high-cap mags? Both result in tragedy, but I’ll take the tragedy with 6 casualties over the one with 30 any day as these are ‘inevitabilities’.

First of all you say you’ll take the tragedy of 6 over 30 any day. I’m not sure how that would be of any comfort to the Families of those 6, or how much comfort it would be to you if one of those 6 would be one your Family members.

You and others put so much into the weapon used here. I’m not sure how much knowledge you or other Anti gun people out there have About weapons. Tell me how a AR with a Several Hi Capacity Mag’s ( lets say 30 rounds) is any different than 2 Handguns ( one in each hand ) loaded with Hi capacity Mag’s ( Lets say 25 rounds each ) or Worse yet a Shotgun with a magazine extension tube loaded with 00Buck ( 10 rounds in tube with each shell loaded 15 pellets ) The shotgun with buckshot is sending 150 Projectiles down range with each 10 shots fired.

If every AR was rounded up and destroyed today. That would not stop a mentally ill person with the desire to Kill people from doing so. Only change the weapon he chose to do it with. Possibly a weapon with even more destructive potential. Other firearm types, a homemade bomb ( Think crowded movie theater ) a 4 Wheel Drive Truck ( Think Crowded parade )

Please also keep in mind that legislation to outlaw anything WILL create a black market.

Seems simple right? We’ll have you heard of the war on drugs? This war is making really dangerous people extremely powerful. If extreme gun legislation passes, this will happen I assure you. And now you created a whole new problem.

Prohibition only creates more problems than it solves.

crappie55369 wrote:

Mentally Ill is a very popular term in recent weeks. The White House is pushing this agenda to the public and it seems to have caught on. Define it. What is the definition of mentally ill? We are throwing this term out like its candy at a small town parade like it should should be the focus of our attention but what does it mean? Who is part of this group? Here is one from the Mayo Clinic

“Mental illness refers to a wide range of mental health conditions — disorders that affect your mood, thinking and behavior. Examples of mental illness include depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating disorders and addictive behaviors. Many people have mental health concerns from time to time”

So if we look at that statement the question is, who do we go after for “treatment” or to arrest proactively preventing an attack? Does the person with an eating disorder get put on a no gun owning list or get sent to Guantanamo for questioning along with the person with schizophrenia? I see a problem with just trying to latch onto this notion of once you find the mentally ill person and treat/eliminate them and you take care of the problem

How we choose to classify mental illness may be may be open to debate. But I’m sure that most people agree that a person who make threats to go to a school or anyplace for that matter and shoot and kill people is Mentally Ill. This person should not be allowed to have access to a firearm ( ANY firearm ) and should be brought in and locked up until it is determined he is no longer a threat to society ( although I’m not sure that can be determined )

biggill wrote:

Please also keep in mind that legislation to outlaw anything WILL create a black market.

Seems simple right? We’ll have you heard of the war on drugs? This war is making really dangerous people extremely powerful. If extreme gun legislation passes, this will happen I assure you. And now you created a whole new problem.

Prohibition only creates more problems than it solves.

I think that’s a good point. For those in favor of a ban I don’t think that means you stop trying, just like you don’t all of a sudden make Heroin legal because we cant stop it, but I can see this playing out.

ClownColor wrote:

Homicides are waaaaay down to where they were at in the 50’s and 60’s……..

ClownColor wrote:

Sorry, timing is factual. Waaaay more homicides in the 70’s – 90’s.

I still like know how comparing the numbers of homicides from 60 – 30 years ago to now has any relationship to what happened last week?……

Blaming TV and Video games is no different them blaming the guns. This is a horrible argument. If you can’t differentiate between real world and fantasy, you have mental illnesses.

I disagree Bob. Children are young and their minds are still forming. They are easily influenced. I’m not saying video games should be banned, because I agree with biggill that will create a black market. But parents need to wake up and see what they are feeding their kids brains.

TheFamousGrouse wrote:

Something has to give. We cannot continue to have a system that puts every possible hurdle in the way of law enforcement getting guns out of the hands of people who possibly pose a threat. “Possibly” is the key word, we have to get over this mindset where something bad has to happen before anyone can take any action.

Give our kids the same protection as POTUS. Anyone, kid or adult, who threatens a school needs to be treated as mentally ill and dangerous until they can be evaluated and treated. This means temporary or long-term removal of all guns they have direct access to, regardless of who owns them.

I agree. This is what I mean by tolerant. We tolerate and tolerate until something bad happens before we take action. Let law enforcement step in, and stop these people who make threats by whatever means necessary. (detain, strip gun rights, physch eval, whatever it takes)

Crappie, I also want to put another spin on BKs comment and tell you why it’s a good point. Our bipartisan system is what is killing this country. The bipartisan system ensures that as a majority the two sides are always against each other. This is the reason that nothing is being done and the real root causes are being ignored.

Has anyone ever done a 5 whys on an issue before? You basically state a problem and ask as many whys as as necessary to discover the ROOT CAUSE of the issue.

For example: My truck won’t start.
Why? Because the battery is dead.
Why is my battery dead? Because I left my dome light on.
Why was my done light on? Because I dropped a a few French fries on the floor that I wanted to clean up.
Why did I drop a French front on the floor? Because I was eating while driving.
Why was I eating while driving? Because I was in a hurry. < Root Cause

Solution: Allow for more time while running errands and avoid eating while driving.

I know it’s stupid but does anyone else get the feeling that we’re always stuck on he first or second why and never addressing the root cause?

OK this is driving me batty.

How is the white house, the president, celebrities, cash vans, etc protected? With trained, armed guards/security. Are our kids not valuable enough to protect the same way? Gun control is such an knee jerk, idiotic thing to focus on. Our attention is diverted and not focused or legitimately looking in the right direction. The cost seems epic to guard each and every school, yet we guard useless, dumb arse politicians vs our most valuable and vulnerable assets, our kids. We guard our money and celebrities, but not our youth, WTF? Hippocrates guard themselves with the firearms they wish/desire to take away. This is idiotic. The news is unwatchable.

Sorry for the rant, just frustrating.

Root cause analysis requires logic. And solutions based on that analysis. The current discussion is being driven by emotion. It is a tendency of the left to vote and seek solutions in ways that make them feel good.

Speaking of hippocrates, the same people that, after Thump was elected, were comparing to him Hitler are the same people that demanding Trump take our guns away. Exactly what Hitler did.

Mudshark wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>bob clowncolor wrote:</div>
Homicides are waaaaay down to where they were at in the 50’s and 60’s……..

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>bob clowncolor wrote:</div>
Sorry, timing is factual. Waaaay more homicides in the 70’s – 90’s.

I still like know how comparing the numbers of homicides from 60 – 30 years ago to now has any relationship to what happened last week?……

It doesnt. You need to go back 9 pages instead of taking one quote. I clearly stated mental illness had to do with the shooting. The homicide stats had to do with how our society is changing…for the better.

I was always wondering where the 18 school shootings were at for this year. Found them!

Washington Examiner

ClownColor wrote:

It doesnt. You need to go back 9 pages instead of taking one quote. I clearly stated mental illness had to do with the shooting. The homicide stats had to do with how our society is changing…for the better.

Well bud for 1 thing it was 2 quotes 1 day apart from yeaterday (2 pages) that went from the 50’s to the 90’s……Blaming past generations solves nothing……Changes in generations are throughout history and almost always for the better….You’re the one who brought up the past…..all I was saying don’t blame our parents and grandparents….
And your mental health point is spot on…I just feel your blaming us for these problems…
Both my kids have turned into successful,intelligent members of society so we can’t be all bad….

basseyes wrote:

OK this is driving me batty.

How is the white house, the president, celebrities, cash vans, etc protected? With trained, armed guards/security. Are our kids not valuable enough to protect the same way? Gun control is such an knee jerk, idiotic thing to focus on. Our attention is diverted and not focused or legitimately looking in the right direction. The cost seems epic to guard each and every school, yet we guard useless, dumb arse politicians vs our most valuable and vulnerable assets, our kids. We guard our money and celebrities, but not our youth, WTF? Hippocrates guard themselves with the firearms they wish/desire to take away. This is idiotic. The news is unwatchable.

Sorry for the rant, just frustrating.

Frustrating for sure! It’s hard to get into a routine carrying a weapon when you have to go to a GUN FREE zone 190 days a year and feel like a sitting duck in class. I’m a HS shop teacher so I have a few weapons close by at my disposal, I don’t feel as helpless as I would in a regular classroom. I don’t get it. When they are trying to ban the black scary guns (that won’t do anything for this problem) and ignoring the pill popping epidemic and mental health crisis we could at THE VERY LEAST protect our students and staff as much as a bag of coins being delivered to the bank.

If it was an option for me to carry at school, I don’t even know if I would or would want that responsibility but a few people in the building that are qualified SHOULD be so we can take down the gun free zone signs and send a message to these school shooter freaks that you’re not walking in here without a damn fight on your hands.

Let me apologize ahead of time for getting political, but I think it’s time to end the bipartisan system by voting these clowns out of office. Even if one candidate isn’t super left or right, the majority still rules and results in little or no progress.

At 38 years old I have leaned a little each direction in my lifetime only now to realize it doesn’t matter wich side you choose. You get little or no progress to show for it. They only focus on their own party’s views and failing to recognize that there is rarely ever only two sides to every issue.

Mudshark wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>bob clowncolor wrote:</div>
It doesnt. You need to go back 9 pages instead of taking one quote. I clearly stated mental illness had to do with the shooting. The homicide stats had to do with how our society is changing…for the better.

Well bud for 1 thing it was 2 quotes 1 day apart from yeaterday (2 pages) that went from the 50’s to the 90’s……Blaming past generations solves nothing……Changes in generations are throughout history and almost always for the better….You’re the one who brought up the past…..all I was saying don’t blame our parents and grandparents….
And your mental health point is spot on…I just feel your blaming us for these problems…
Both my kids have turned into successful,intelligent members of society so we can’t be all bad….

No bud…I’m not blaming “us.” That’s the point. I’m saying we, as a society, HAVE gotten better. Someone or some people have been saying, in a nut shell, our society has gotten shanty and all I’m saying is that’s gotten way better. Geesh.

biggill wrote:

Let me apologize ahead of time for getting political, but I think it’s time to end the bipartisan system by voting these clowns out of office. Even if one candidate isn’t super left or right, the majority still rules and results in little or no progress.

Not true…..The Constitution still rules……Thank God…..

Mudshark wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>biggill wrote:</div>
Let me apologize ahead of time for getting political, but I think it’s time to end the bipartisan system by voting these clowns out of office. Even if one candidate isn’t super left or right, the majority still rules and results in little or no progress.

Not true…..The Constitution still rules……Thank God…..

Amen Brother!
However, just be aware that there is one body that controls it. The supreme court can rule for or against an interpretation. So, in theory, NINE individuals that should be non-politically motovated control the fate of the Constitution, its Articles and Ammendments. Once confirmed, justices serve for life. They only leave the Supreme Court if they die, resign, retire, or are convicted on impeachment for bad behavior.

can we get back to the topic on how to keep our kids safe? I thought discussing politics was not allowed here? guns/no guns, righties/lefties, blah blah blah

crappie55369 wrote:

So if we look at that statement the question is, who do we go after for “treatment” or to arrest proactively preventing an attack? Does the person with an eating disorder get put on a no gun owning list or get sent to Guantanamo for questioning along with the person with schizophrenia?

Obviously not. “Mentally ill” is a broad description, not a diagnosis of a specific condition. Mental illness is the same as physical illnesses, there are different conditions, levels of severity, and they affect different people in different ways.

What we’re talking about here is people who have conditions that cause symptoms such as a diminished capacity to tell right from wrong, delusional behavior, hallucinations, unprovoked anger or violent behavior, and other very severe symptoms that can cause people to harm themselves or others.

crappie55369 wrote:

I see a problem with just trying to latch onto this notion of once you find the mentally ill person and treat/eliminate them and you take care of the problem

As opposed to what? Ignoring them because being mentally ill isn’t like they’re really sick?

Treatment for mental illnesses doesn’t involve locking up anyone and everyone who is diagnosed. This is hysterical scaremongering.

The problem right now is very severely ill people are being left untreated because there aren’t resources and there isn’t the legal backing needed in some cases to ensure their own safety and the safety of others.

Grouse

Columbine had armed security and was during an arms ban. Try again.

There was an armed resource officer at this school. He chose to take a position outside and never went in to engage the shooter. He was put on leave without pay pending an investigation. After he decided to resign/retire.

A armed resource office and most likely carrying a sidearm only. Was he supposed to be Rambo and engage a person that obviously had him out armed? I don’t know the full details of pugs story above and unless he just curled up in the fetal position I have some empathy for him. They’re going to need more than one officer in most schools.

It’s a sad day when we have to look into security for our schools but it was also a sad day when we had to be stripped searched and x-rayed in order to board a plane. We need to look at the here and now and banning the AR or all guns for that matter will not cure this problem. A multi-layer security program would help until we figure out how to help and stop these individuals before they unhinge. Finding a cure all for mental illness will take years and more medications, and more ect…. the cycle continues.

Mental illness is not something new being discussed after this incident. Every other shooting, mental illness/fitness plays into them. The fact that this time, people are actually TALKING about it is encouraging. Prior attempts of the media and administrations to “get the guns” just don’t address the real root cause. Children and Teachers safety… it should not be political at all… but who makes it that way ? (think media)

Hunting4Walleyes wrote:

A armed resource office and most likely carrying a sidearm only. Was he supposed to be Rambo and engage a person that obviously had him out armed? I don’t know the full details of pugs story above and unless he just curled up in the fetal position I have some empathy for him. They’re going to need more than one officer in most schools.

The sheriff put him on UNPAID leave saying he SHOULD have confronted the shooter. He has since resigned and retired.

Most officers are trained to wait for backup. They sign up to face very dangerous situations but they also have to think about what would happen if they were taken out of the situation at that time. Was it the smartest thing to run up to him and engage him or lay and wait for a opportunity to surprise him. After all one shot from that rifle would go right through any body amour he was wearing.

Once again, I know nothing of the situation and if he ran to the parking lot and hid behind a car then yes, he should be let go and this was obviously the wrong profession for him. I guess I assuming to many things without knowing all the facts so I out on this for now until more comes out. One thing I’ll still say, a properly trained and armed security staff would limit a lot of these incidents. Properly trained and staff (plural) are the key words.

From what I’ve heard, and you can call it hearsay, hiding in the parking lot is what he did. What’s the point of him carrying a side arm also, what’s he carrying it for?

I’m not being argumentative with you, I know it could sound like that, but you are being reasonable in your reply.

It’s the multiple levels of failure that has me frustrated with the whole situation.

Protecting the president or whomever, is based on assuming a threat, not pretending they can disarm that threat with legislation and then need not worry cause there’s law’s in place. They still protect valuable assets with an aggressive approach that tries to stop the threat with armed protection because there’s bad people, who do bad things. More law’s doesn’t stop that. It’s not political at all, protect the asset, kids. If schools were full of gold, how would we protect the gold? Kids are more valuable, yet we are clueless and impotent.

mplspug wrote:

The sheriff put him on UNPAID leave saying he SHOULD have confronted the shooter. He has since resigned and retired.

Maybe he retired to the parking lot to ensure his being able to retire.

This statement alone speaks volumes….”He has since resigned and retired.”
In this town our liaison officers are not getting ready to retire….they’re still plenty active duty. If the sheriff feels that this guy should have been a bit more proactive in this, maybe the sheriff should file some charges and then lock him in a room with the deceased’s relatives for a couple hours so he can explain himself.