Hooking Mortality question

This may be a stupid question, but it’s an honest one — does hooking mortality occur equally in rivers and lakes? I ask because I’ve been fishing pool 2 a couple times a week for the past few years and I’ve never seen a dead walleye floating around. It could be that the high raptor population are just very efficient at disposing of those fish? It just seems that with the fishery being 100% C&R for walleye and with the warm temps in July we would have seen some of that. Does the relative shallow depth of pool 2 (as compared to Mille Lacs, for example) work in favor of these fish surviving after release?

Not a biologist, but could it be the flowing water in rivers keeps the water temps more consistent from top to bottom preventing that shock that may occur?

My impression? The DNR is padding the numbers to appease the Tribes. Milly has been catch and release all year. With 44800 walleye caught and charged for hooking mortality- Don’t you think Mille Lacs would be a cesspool of stinking rotting walleyes. The reason I think this is all BS is when I ask the DNR “If we are being billed for 44800 fish, why can’t we keep them? The Indians get to keep their allotted number.”
I’m still waiting on that answer by the way.

I don’t think it is a bad question. But I wouldn’t compare the number to Mille Laces.

chris-tuckner wrote:

Don’t you think Mille Lacs would be a cesspool of stinking rotting walleyes.

That is why there are so many walleye feeding on crayfish. The crayfish are eating 1000+ lb of walleye a day and then the walleye eat them. Oh the circle of life.

I absolutely believe its the water temp and the depth that causes a lot of hook mortality. Not necessarily warm water, but the temp difference between where the fish are hooked and where they are released.

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I definitely do not want this thread to turn into a drama fest about Mille labs and the tribes and the DNR. I shouldn’t have even mentioned that lake in my original post, that was lazy of me.

I do believe hooking mortality is a problem; but I’m not as interested in discussing whether the DNR is lying to us about the numbers because there’s no way to arrive at a factual decisive answer to that question. And there are already multiple threads about that.

Very interested in hearing additional insight specific to the river. Thanks again!

There are more people fishing with a (insert live bait here) under a bobber on the lakes than in rivers.

Warm water leads to mortality. Hooks will add to that number.
IMHO

sticker wrote:

I absolutely believe its the water temp and the depth that causes a lot of hook mortality. Not necessarily warm water, but the temp difference between where the fish are hooked and where they are released.

X2

Brian Klawitter wrote:

There are more people fishing with a (insert live bait here) under a bobber on the lakes than in rivers.

I have no idea what you’re getting at here…

I fish bobbers a lot at certain times of the year and I can say with all honesty my boat did not gut hook one all year.

I have killed way more walleye accidentally with crank baits than I ever will using live bait. In the last week I hooked 8 fish right through the eyeball. I don’t think this thread is about live bait vs artificial.

To the OP: in my experience fish out of a river are much more resilient. I think it has a lot to do with water temp and depth as stated above. Temp change is hard on walleye.

Joe Scegura wrote:

I fish bobbers a lot at certain times of the year and I can say with all honesty my boat did not gut hook one all year.

I too was under the impression that feeding line in a live bait spinner rig before setting the hook was a bigger problem in terms of gut hooking than bobber fishing.

Would love to hear from guys who frequent Pepin or Lake St Croix and fish some deeper “river” water — although I know fewer fish are released there than P2, obviously.

Does anyone know the hooking mortality rate for musky, smallmouth, or largemouth?

BigWerm wrote:

Does anyone know the hooking mortality rate for musky, smallmouth, or largemouth?

I don’t think anyone knows the hooking mortality for any species. There are just too many factors, depth, temp, type of lure, incidental hooking and of course those that don’t know how to handle fish.

chris-tuckner wrote:

With 44800 walleye caught and charged for hooking mortality- Don’t you think Mille Lacs would be a cesspool of stinking rotting walleyes.

That is a little more than 1/3 of 1 walleye per acre.

I do see all types of fish floating in the Mississippi, from trophy flatheads to trophy walleyes and everything in-between… Sometimes in multiples but mostly not on a regular basis… And there’s oodles of acres of water I never visit

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

That is a little more than 1/3 of 1 walleye per acre.

I do see all types of fish floating in the Mississippi, from trophy flatheads to trophy walleyes and everything in-between… Sometimes in multiples but mostly not on a regular basis… And there’s oodles of acres of water I never visit

That’s a perspective I hadn’t thought of, FBRM — floaters per acre of water. Interesting way of looking at it. ML is an awfully big pond, for sure.

Only dead fish I’ve seen on p2 the last few years have been sheepies and carp.

FishBlood&RiverMud wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>chris-tuckner wrote:</div>
With 44800 walleye caught and charged for hooking mortality- Don’t you think Mille Lacs would be a cesspool of stinking rotting walleyes.

That is a little more than 1/3 of 1 walleye per acre.

I do see all types of fish floating in the Mississippi, from trophy flatheads to trophy walleyes and everything in-between… Sometimes in multiples but mostly not on a regular basis… And there’s oodles of acres of water I never visit

I agree, I have seen about everything floating down this river.. Two things to keep in mind.. Eagles just like you wrote. The are thick as thieves on P2. The other is that floating fish don’t float all the way down river. They usually will get hung up on an outside bend or log pile pretty quick. if they do not get eaten before hanging up on shore then the coons are waiting to find these guys. On a large body of water.. Not just Mille Lacs a fish can float for days before a gull pokes a hole in it or they land on shore.

If you’re getting into cattin what buschman just said is what you need to know.

pool2fool wrote:

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I definitely do not want this thread to turn into a drama fest about Mille labs and the tribes and the DNR. I shouldn’t have even mentioned that lake in my original post, that was lazy of me.

I do believe hooking mortality is a problem; but I’m not as interested in discussing whether the DNR is lying to us about the numbers because there’s no way to arrive at a factual decisive answer to that question. And there are already multiple threads about that.

Well….here’s the deal. And let me preempt by declaring that my comment here is not to continue to stir the pot regarding Mille Lacs drama.
That being said, it wasn’t until the Mille Lacs treaty management began years ago that “hooking mortality” was even a topic…or concern for that matter. Some years ago ” hooking mortality” in regards to recreational fishing was hardly known or even cared about. “Hooking mortality” became the big deal it is today because the state allowed quota on Mille Lacs is all harvested via “hooking mortality” So the Mille Lacs drama in a way invented this “hooking mortality” phenomenon. Mille Lacs is the only lake that has it’s “allowable harvest” reduced by hooking mortality.
I am not suggesting that hooking mortality should be of no concern for other waters, but in most all other waters there is some allowed harvest to keep.
So…long worded answer to your question, no I would not worry about “hooking mortality” on P2, Pepin, St Croix, or most any other fishery.

Thanks to everyone for the thoughts on this topic. I realize it’s very difficult to detach from what’s been going on at ML.

It just struck me as interesting that there’s no big hooking mortality problem that I’m aware of on p2 despite it being a c&r walleye factory, and I now feel a bit more educated — both in terms of why this body of water is less susceptible to it, and what happens to the fish that do succumb to it.

I fish bobbers a lot at certain times of the year and I can say with all honesty my boat did not gut hook one all year.

Joe you are a Pro. Now toss 2 guys in a boat that never fished bobbers before.

Once upon a time when I was interested in “hooking mortality” as it was connected to fishing with two lines, all the walleye guides I interviewed agreed, leeches and bobbers killed fish not from the guides but from their newbie clients and what they’ve see from the boats next to them. I will say that most of the guides I spoke with where from the Millacs area (if that makes any difference).

I’ve been lucky enough to work in partnership with the DNR and that’s allowed me to brush elbows with many types of fishermen from all parts of the state. At the end of the day I’ve learned that not everyone fishes the way I do and what I’ve experience maybe completely opposite of what other anglers experience.

Nobody mention a scour hole.

pool2fool wrote:

It just struck me as interesting that there’s no big hooking mortality problem

Period. As Andy points out hooking mortality, as a management variable, was instituted due to Mille Lacs. And even on Mille Lacs the hooking mortality percentage’s have decreased every time the DNR was forced to re-examine. It is also likely to change once again, once last years study results are released, and even that is HIGHLY debatable as they are measuring survival of fish caught, put in fishermans livewell, DNR boat came and picked up, put in their livewell, and then kept in confinement nets for 5 days without food or ability to travel aka until they died.

Joe Scegura wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>BigWerm wrote:</div>
Does anyone know the hooking mortality rate for musky, smallmouth, or largemouth?

I don’t think anyone knows the hooking mortality for any species. There are just too many factors, depth, temp, type of lure, incidental hooking and of course those that don’t know how to handle fish.

100% agree. That is not to say hooking mortality doesn’t happen, just that, imo, it is an insignificant percentage that is nearly impossible to accurately measure.

Brian Klawitter wrote:

Joe you are a Pro. Now toss 2 guys in a boat that never fished bobbers before.

I respect your research and maybe unguided people will gut hook fish while bobber fishing??

I don’t fish while I guide. I just put clients on fish and suggest the best way to do things. No one in my boat has gut hooked a walleye this year while bobber fishing in my boat. That includes 3 year olds and 90 year olds.

Joe Scegura wrote:

I don’t fish while I guide.

Makes perfect sense Joe.

sticker wrote:

I absolutely believe its the water temp and the depth that causes a lot of hook mortality. Not necessarily warm water, but the temp difference between where the fish are hooked and where they are released.

Live bait fishing, depth of fish (over 30′) and temperature all are contributing factors to higher angling mortality. Higher temperatures, say in mid-80 degree waters, tend to have higher rates because the walleye are already approaching stressful conditions. That is not to say you can’t catch a walleye in 90 degree water. Acclimation temperature is also a part of it. Pull a fish from 58 degree water and throw him into 75 degree water and you have problems. Move one from 80 degree water into 85 degree, not an issue.

Think about how long your minnows last when you pull them from your well water temp bucket and put them into the 80 degree water….they don’t do well…but hopefully you never notice that cause they get eaten even faster. Fatheads are some of the most thermally tolerant fish out there too.

chris-tuckner wrote:

My impression? The DNR is padding the numbers to appease the Tribes. Milly has been catch and release all year. With 44800 <em class=”ido-tag-em”>walleye caught and charged for hooking mortality-

I’m assuming that the 44800 is not an established, provable number, only an estimate since the dnr doesn’t visit every boat on that lake at all times and an absolute cannot be given to mortality, especially when all fish [walleye] must be released.

In the heat of summer the live bait/water depth/water temp will definitely come into play if the surface water temps are very high. Dissolved oxygen levels plummet as water temps go up. There may be plenty of oxygen rich water near the lower end of the water column where the fish live and hit, but bringing a fighting fish thru the relatively oxygen-poor surface water taxes their energy stores because of a much higher metabolism and a fish that’s been deep or gill hooked suffers even more at the release. Taking live/any form of NATURAL bait off Mille Lacs’ table would be a huge step in a positive direction….if enforced all year. Still, I think that Mr. Tuckner’s comments are more to the point than the dnr wants to admit to and that this number of mortally injured walleyes is offered as a statistical number and we all know statistics can be used to influence an outcome one way or the other.