Hooking Mortality

  • BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11562
    #2035393

    Per the attached article the DNR’s Chief Hooking Mortality Specialist estimates 5% of all caught and released fish die post release on Mille Lacs. He also (somewhat counterintuitively) says that 12% of fish caught on a circle hook die, whereas 27% caught with a J-hook die. All of these numbers seem GREATLY overexaggerated in my experience, so I emailed Commissioner Strommen the following questions: Can you explain the difference in 5% effective mortality rate (this is what’s used to shut the season down) vs 12%/27% in Tom Jones’ study? Can I receive a copy of the study, or the methods behind the study? And why is Hooking Mortality used as the primary management tool on ML, but not used everywhere else? I’ll post the DNR’s response if/when I receive one.

    https://www.messagemedia.co/aitkin/opinion/our_columnists/a-sticky-situation/article_78122aac-a7a0-11eb-868f-1ba504b35036.html

    Netguy
    Minnetonka
    Posts: 3161
    #2035419

    I’ve been using circle hooks for rigging for over a decade. I’ve had no success converting anyone I fish with. If the fish has swallowed the hook you will feel it come out of the stomach and then take hold around the corner of the mouth the majority of the time. You need to be sure the gap is wide enough otherwise the hooking percentage goes way down. With a gap that is too small you’ll feel it come out of the stomach and then the mouth.

    MnPat1
    Posts: 371
    #2035429

    IMO the type of hook matters less than the type of bait used. I never use live bait and 99% of the time I’m using a single hook lure. I would bet hooking mortality would drop substantially in the first month of the season if live bait was not allowed.
    If you have never tried using artificial lures for walleye your missing out.

    Karry Kyllo
    Posts: 1261
    #2035439

    Bigwerm,
    Why do you think the mortality rates are greatly overexaggerated? The numbers seem perfectly reasonable to me.

    Ripjiggen
    Posts: 11501
    #2035471

    IMO the type of hook matters less than the type of bait used. I never use live bait and 99% of the time I’m using a single hook lure. I would bet hooking mortality would drop substantially in the first month of the season if live bait was not allowed.
    If you have never tried using artificial lures for walleye your missing out.

    Thats great. applause
    You are completely missing the point however. Would not change anything.

    Werm I am sure you know the answer to the question you asked the DNR already….
    A better question should have been since we/the sportsman was 20k lbs under the quota last year why would there need to be a closure this year.

    ClownColor
    Inactive
    The Back 40
    Posts: 1955
    #2035476

    Makes one think…is catch and release all day worse off than catching and keeping your first 6 fish (talking walleye but could be used in all species scenarios). 12 and 27% is pretty high…

    mxskeeter
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts: 3738
    #2035478

    Would jigs be considered a j hook or an artificial bait?
    I would think the majority of walleyes would be caught on a j hook. If that is correct how can mortality rate be 5%?

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17204
    #2035487

    Would jigs be considered a j hook or an artificial bait?
    I would think the majority of walleyes would be caught on a j hook.

    Depends on what is on the jig. Most people either tip them with a minnow or a plastic. Tipped with a minnow is live bait, plastic is artificial.

    I too saw this article in the messenger about circle hooks and mortality.

    The methods used on Mille Lacs play a big role because most people are either Lindy rigging or slip bobber fishing. Both strategies are passive/finesse styles of fishing with live bait (usually a leech), as opposed to trolling with a spinner or crank bait which presents a reaction strike. Fish often swallow the bait when you bobber fish or Lindy rig because the angler feeds the fish line when they get a bite.

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11562
    #2035793

    Bigwerm,
    Why do you think the mortality rates are greatly overexaggerated? The numbers seem perfectly reasonable to me.

    Personal experience and a background in statistics. On the personal side I couldn’t tell you the last time a fish I caught on Mille Lacs died. Additionally if 27%/12%/5% of fish caught died, there would be a flotilla of walleyes all summer long floating to shore. Even at 5% after a busy weekend there would dead eye’s everywhere. Not to mention that the recruitment and biomass #’s would show an entirely different trend than what is happening.

    reverend
    Rhinelander, WI
    Posts: 1115
    #2035827

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Karry Kyllo wrote:</div>
    Bigwerm,
    Why do you think the mortality rates are greatly overexaggerated? The numbers seem perfectly reasonable to me.

    Personal experience and a background in statistics. On the personal side I couldn’t tell you the last time a fish I caught on Mille Lacs died. Additionally if 27%/12%/5% of fish caught died, there would be a flotilla of <em class=”ido-tag-em”>walleyes all summer long floating to shore. Even at 5% after a busy weekend there would dead eye’s everywhere. Not to mention that the recruitment and biomass #’s would show an entirely different trend than what is happening.

    I can’t verify/deny the accuracy of the 5% statistics, but in reading the article, it’s stating that hooking mortality showed that J-hooks killed 27% of the total(5%) fish vs 12% of the total mortality(5%)for fish caught on circle hooks. Basically, the study showed that J-hooks are more than twice as lethal than circle hooks(yes, there’s a lot of variables within the J-hook subset)
    It’s not a 5% total + 12% circle + 27% J-hook situation. It’s a 27% and 12%, respectively, of the 5% total mortality.

    reverend
    Rhinelander, WI
    Posts: 1115
    #2035829

    From the article: “…flicker of white on the bottom of the fish’s tale…”

    “Tale”? A tale about a fish’s tail maybe?

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11562
    #2035835

    I can’t verify/deny the accuracy of the 5% statistics, but in reading the article, it’s stating that hooking mortality showed that J-hooks killed 27% of the total(5%) fish vs 12% of the total mortality(5%)for fish caught on circle hooks. Basically, the study showed that J-hooks are more than twice as lethal than circle hooks(yes, there’s a lot of variables within the J-hook subset)
    It’s not a 5% total + 12% circle + 27% J-hook situation. It’s a 27% and 12%, respectively, of the 5% total mortality.

    That is not how it reads to me. IF that was the case what would be the hook causing the other 61% (100-27-12) to die? I took it as they estimate 5% of all caught fish die due to hooking mortality. In another study specifically on hook type, 27% of J-Hook caught fish die, and 12% of Circle Hook caught fish die.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17204
    #2035893

    On the personal side I couldn’t tell you the last time a fish I caught on Mille Lacs died.

    I would assume the same on all the walleyes I catch too, but I can’t technically verify it so I’m not going to say its true.

    When I worked as an intern on the launches for the DNR about 15 years ago, I saw how many of them operate. You’d be shocked to see how poorly people unhook fish on those things. They let them swallow the friggin leech, take forever to unhook the fish, measure it, take a photo, and then finally try to release it. It takes WAY too long. We’re talking minutes that a fish is out of the water and when its warm out, even after they’ve swallowed the bait. Many of the people on a launch are inexperienced (or drunk) too and there’s only one captain trying to help all the people.

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11562
    #2035905

    When I worked as an intern on the launches

    I could be wrong here, but I don’t think the launches are a significant factor in the total angling hours on the lake. I’ve only been on a launch twice and we didn’t catch much at all, but even if they are hammering them it would take a ton of trips full of people to be statistically significant in overall hooking mortality rates.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17204
    #2035909

    I could be wrong here, but I don’t think the launches are a significant factor in the total angling hours on the lake. I’ve only been on a launch twice and we didn’t catch much at all, but even if they are hammering them it would take a ton of trips full of people to be statistically significant in overall hooking mortality rates.

    I can’t verify that one either. I can only relay my experience when I was on them years ago.

    tomr
    cottage grove, mn
    Posts: 1275
    #2035961

    Additionally if 27%/12%/5% of fish caught died, there would be a flotilla of walleyes all summer long floating to shore. Even at 5% after a busy weekend there would dead eye’s everywhere. Not to mention that the recruitment and biomass #’s would show an entirely different trend than what is happening.

    Agreed! Where are all the dead walleyes going? After a weekend in May and June you would think property owners would be howling at the mess they would have to clean up.

    Armchair Biologist
    Posts: 12
    #2036919

    Per the attached article the DNR’s Chief Hooking Mortality Specialist estimates 5% of all caught and released fish die post release on Mille Lacs. He also (somewhat counterintuitively) says that 12% of fish caught on a circle hook die, whereas 27% caught with a J-hook die. All of these numbers seem GREATLY overexaggerated in my experience, so I emailed Commissioner Strommen the following questions: Can you explain the difference in 5% effective mortality rate (this is what’s used to shut the season down) vs 12%/27% in Tom Jones’ study? Can I receive a copy of the study, or the methods behind the study? And why is Hooking Mortality used as the primary management tool on ML, but not used everywhere else? I’ll post the DNR’s response if/when I receive one.

    So you’re getting all worked up over a Mille Lacs messenger article? I’ve been in the Mille Lacs messenger three times. One time they misquoted me. Another time they got my name wrong, and another time they put someone else’s name under my photo. You ever think there might be some typos, misquotes, or inaccurate information there?

    You then go on to quote your personal experiences with “hooking mortality”. So…do you have a pen out in the lake that you throw every walleye that you catch then monitor them for a week or two? I didn’t think so. Fish sometimes die from hooking mortality days later. Just because that fish “swam away real good” doesn’t mean that fish survived.

    Why did you contact the DNR commissioner? Don’t you think it would have been allot more productive to contact Tom Jones, the actual person who completed the study? Perhaps Tom could provide you with his study, or a copy of the data. Perhaps Tom is more qualified to talk about his study than the commissioner.

    Personal experience and a background in statistics. On the personal side I couldn’t tell you the last time a fish I caught on Mille Lacs died. Additionally if 27%/12%/5% of fish caught died, there would be a flotilla of <em class=”ido-tag-em”>walleyes all summer long floating to shore. Even at 5% after a busy weekend there would dead eye’s everywhere. Not to mention that the recruitment and biomass #’s would show an entirely different trend than what is happening.

    What’s your background in statistics that makes you such an expert? I don’t know anyone that has a background in statistics that would take a few percentages from a local publication and jump to a bunch of conclusions. You haven’t even seen the actual data.

    Further, you have no way of knowing that none of the fish you caught died. You have no procedure to measure that. If you’ve caught allot of walleyes on Mille Lacs in the last few years and you fished in the months of July and August out on the mud flats it’s almost statistically impossible that none of the fish you caught died. Again, just because you watched a fish swim away doesn’t mean anything. Some fish that float away end up reviving themselves and living, some fish that swim off vigorously die.

    Anyone that has been on Mille Lacs during a good bite in July and August has seen the flotilla of dead walleyes. If people are fishing on the lake it’s pretty hard to miss. I lived on the lake for two summers and saw dead walleyes all the time. Remember that animals eat those fish, and the warmer and deeper the water, the higher the mortality. You wouldn’t expect to see many (or any) dead walleyes on opener. You’d expect to see them when the water is warm, there’s allot of people fishing, and they are out on the mud flats.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17204
    #2036920

    Joneser, is that you? Back from the dead? smash

    ClownColor
    Inactive
    The Back 40
    Posts: 1955
    #2036921

    Mille lacs isn’t deep enough to worry about pulling fish up…6’ or 30’ shouldn’t make a difference.

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11562
    #2036931

    So you’re getting all worked up over a Mille Lacs messenger article?

    Just doing some due diligence on the newish primary management tool used on my favorite lake, and the walleye capital of the state. The audacity I know!!! I got a ton of additional info I’ll be adding next week, thanks for your concern!

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11562
    #2039072

    For some reason the links won’t post, you should be able to Google the authors and see them on the North American Journal of Fisheries management if you are so inclined. Here’s the HM to water temp chart from Tom Heinrich that built off the Bruesewitz study.

    Attachments:
    1. 5F7DDDDE-D043-482F-BB65-1FFA953AA24B.png

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #2039165

    For some reason the links won’t post, you should be able to Google the authors

    Bigwerm,

    I was able to get your links (below) to post. We’re having some issues with our spam trap catching some valid contributions. I apologize for the inconvenience.

    tomr
    cottage grove, mn
    Posts: 1275
    #2039178

    Anyone that has been on Mille Lacs during a good bite in July and August has seen the flotilla of dead walleyes. If people are fishing on the lake it’s pretty hard to miss.

    I have never seen a flotilla of dead walleyes. Maybe a flotilla of fishing boats a time or two. Nobody is claiming to be an expert in statistical dead walleye analysis. However you seem to think that your observations deserve more credit than the other posters on this subject. Of course I have not been misquoted by the messenger or had them get my name wrong. Heck I haven’t even got my picture posted in the messenger with the wrong name listed. I guess maybe you are some kind of celebrity expert.

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11562
    #2039067

    Just wanted to follow up as I spoke to Tom Jones, Tom Heinrich (Mille Lacs Area Fisheries Supervisor), and Phil Talmage (Lake of the Woods Area Fisheries Supervisor). A few key points summarized from the studies, and I’ll link the summaries of the studies they directed me to (if you want the hard data and full write up, you should be able to contact each fisheries department for a copy).

    First of all, the 12% Circle Hook and 27% J-Hook estimates were an independent study unrelated to Hooking Mortality or the management of Mille Lacs. This study hasn’t been published yet, but should be soon and was designed to look at hook type only without any solid correlation or connection to management practices. Basically a case of poor journalism by the ML Messenger that portrayed the study incorrectly.

    The 5% number is based off of their seasonal Hooking Mortality Rates with their Creel survey factored in, which was the first link Bruesewitz and Reeves study. For example next to no hooking mortality early in the season when water temps are low, and pressure is high, but up to 16% Mortality during the water temperature peak (See Pic in next post) and fishing pressure varies seasonally as well.

    There are two studies, one from P4 (Hoxmeier and Meerbeek) and one from Rainy Lake (Talmage and Staples), that show basically no hooking mortality from fish caught under 30 FOW, once you get beyond that the number goes up drastically. Also, the Talmage study was done in 60-70 degree water temps, so the correlation to water temp seemingly is more dependent on depth of capture rather than water temp.

    IMO there are a few significant issues with these studies and the application of them for management. First of all they are done by catching fish and then putting them in holding nets for 3-5 days, and there is no way to get a true baseline of mortality from that process, i.e. they can’t put fish in a holding cage for 3-5 days without catching them first. So since there is little mortality from this method in the spring when water temps are low, they assume there’s a statistically insignificant amount of mortality from fish being held for 3-5 days when the temps are high. That may be true, but it may not be as well, unless there’s a new way of measuring the baseline, we will never know that important variable. The other significant issue is the Creel factor, which again is an inexact science that is used as a primary factor in ML Management. The HM ratios are factored against fishing pressure which is determined by the Creel surveys. Creel surveys don’t accurately factor in target species (how many of those boats are fishing musky, northern, panfish, bass or just out for a cruise?), nor depth they were fishing. With the increased popularity of other species along with recreational boating this is significant, and even walleye fisherman that fish shallow is as well imo. I think it’s important to note that all of the DNR guys I talked to were very receptive to my questions, openly discussed these studies and potential flaws, and imo are doing their best to be accurate and well intentioned.

    ML: https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1577/M05-209.1

    P4: https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1080/02755947.2011.571490

    Rainy: https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1080/02755947.2011.623759

    Ripjiggen
    Posts: 11501
    #2039247

    Thanks for the follow up BW.

    Anyone that has been on Mille Lacs during a good bite in July and August has seen the flotilla of dead walleyes. If people are fishing on the lake it’s pretty hard to miss. I lived on the lake for two
    summers and saw dead walleyes all the time. Remember that animals eat those fish, and the warmer and deeper the water, the higher the mortality. You wouldn’t expect to see many (or any) dead walleyes on opener. You’d expect to see them when the water is warm, there’s allot of people fishing, and they are out on the mud flats.

    [/quote]

    Flotilla hardly….Sorry it’s just not true…Trust me I have more than two summers experience on the lake…Bad tullie die offs in real warm summers…most definitely.
    Do some walleyes die and float in the summer months because they were gut hooked? Of course. Guessing some that died of other reasons as well.
    Still have yet to hear of another lake being managed poundage wise that use hooking mortality equations that use counting boats to factor into the poundage. Odd?

    BigWerm
    SW Metro
    Posts: 11562
    #2039347

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>BigWerm wrote:</div>
    For some reason the links won’t post, you should be able to Google the authors

    Bigwerm,

    I was able to get your links (below) to post. We’re having some issues with our spam trap catching some valid contributions. I apologize for the inconvenience.

    No problem, thanks for posting them! I assumed it was due to the unique addresses.

    gimruis
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts: 17204
    #2039353

    Bad tullie die offs in real warm summers…most definitely.

    I think some people mistake dead tulibees for dead walleyes. I myself know the difference but when your speeding past a dead fish you don’t really know until you slide ride up to look. And trust me, when you go look, the smell of rotting dead fish ain’t worth looking. bawling

    Ripjiggen
    Posts: 11501
    #2039358

    Should not be that difficult to identify when driving through a flotilla of them. whistling

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22410
    #2039399

    I do remember 2002, you could catch 24 inch Walleye all day, they were so starved. It wasn’t uncommon to catch one, that was gut hooked a couple times already, with 2 lines out its mouth and you would cut off for the 3rd. That year I seen a lot of floaters, but it’s not an every year occurrence.

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