Food Under the Norway Pines

  • mbenson
    Minocqua, Wisconsin
    Posts: 3842
    #204552

    Guys:

    Looking for a little insight as to where I might be able to find out what kinds of things will grow under Norway (Red) Pines???

    We have taken several cuttings out now and there is enough light getting to the floor to allow white oaks to start growing. Strategically I want to leave all of them in and take out the ones that allow more visibility to other areas.

    Lots of blackberry brambles I want to take out, but once out are there better plants that I want to succeed without growing actual food plots??? At least right now I am trying to stay away from having to go through the soil samples, liming, etc. I am looking to introduce plants tolerant of acidic soils that deer can utilize without having to get heavy into equipment purchases or rentals…

    I kind of looked around the web, but it seems that professional help comes at an expense I am not ready to spend at this time. I know fire is probably the best ally I have trying to get out some of the stuff I don’t want, but gotta believe that is more costly than the brush hog approach.

    Any ideas??? Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this!!!

    Mark

    todders
    Shoreview, MN
    Posts: 723
    #116102

    The mndnr has connected my family with 2 different foresters when we were enrolling in a program that were full of information. They came to look at our land and these guys knew more about the woods and entire ecosystem in ten minutes than most figure out in a lifetime. This was at a fee for the program but you can find one and speak with them about questions like these without having to buy your answer. That is where I would start looking first. Good luck on your search!

    flatlandfowler
    SC/SW MN
    Posts: 1081
    #116108

    Here are a few resources that show various characteristics for different tree species. All of these sources have a table depicting different tolerances.

    Tree pH table
    http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/AT%20tree%20ph%20ranges.htm

    Shade and flood tolerant species
    https://utextension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/SP656.pdf

    Species tolerant of alkaline soils
    http://ccesuffolk.org/assets/galleries/Agriculture/Commercial-Nursery-and-Landscape-Management/Trees-Tolerant-of-High-Soil-pH-1-11.pdf

    Wide range of species and remarks
    http://www.state.sc.us/forest/urbsg04.htm
    http://www.mortonarb.org/tree-plant-advice/article/876/large-deciduous-trees-for-the-home-landscape.html

    Being able to get White Oaks growing will be a great benefit in the long run. Deer favor White Oak acorns pretty heavily as many deer hunters know. Some other natural browse that I often see spoken of as whitetail preferences are Sumac, Goldendrod, and Bush Honeysuckle in summer, and Dogwood, Mountain Maple, White Cedar, Ash, Willow, and Hazel. Alot of these are family taxa and not species, each family has several species and those preference differ some as well (For instance a White Oak vs a Pin Oak). Here is an online book I found a while back that you might find useful; on the left you can search “deer” and find all the matches on the available pages.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=usQpGoE0mPEC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=Midwest+Natural+Deer+Browse+Species&source=bl&ots=1xG2hDU02X&sig=d4WRfY8aKAKWEMMietZxDyl8qi0&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Fire can be very beneficial to many habitats, especially coniferous stands and grass prairies. However, if you have alot of under story fuel, downfalls/thickets/saplings it could get nasty very fast; or it could get to hot and kill some of your desired trees. I have looked into burning alot (I mean alot alot) as we have several CRP fields; understanding the difference between a hot burn and cold burn, when each is needed + taking humidy/dewpoint variables into account-gets me leary to go about it with out having an experienced professional on hand for the first time. Luckily (and unluckily) for us, our CRP fields are flooded out heavily every several years which seems to create the occasional disturbance these stands need to really take off again.

    If I were in your shoes, which I am with the exception that I am dealing with mature deciduous growth versus coniferous growth, I would be contacting some DNR, NRCS, or US Forest Service guys. Look online for your local or regional directories and give some of these guys a call. Wisconsin has great wildlife/fisheries/forestry programs at UW Stevens Point, give a professor a call and chat. Worst off they don’t call back, o well I am currently finishing up my masters degree and work with members of the DNR, MPCA, River Boards, Professors. I cant say that I have met one person yet that isn’t willing to help someone out with their own restoration/management effort. These are all people who are devoting their careers to the environment and are almost always hunters/fisherman themselves. Catch even the grumpy guy on a good day and they’ll chat your ear off about this kind of stuff. Also, these are the guys that are in the field working on various projects (example: Forest Management Plans/Restorations) ask if you tag along a day or two if the opportunity arises. Being able to get in the field for even a few hours with some of these guys that really know forest management will yield a ton of info. Like todders said, these are the guys that know more about it than most people will learn in a lifetime.

    One final thing, you mentioned not wanting to do soil tests. I can definitely see where your coming from if you don’t want to spend a bunch of money working through some of this stuff. However, the thing about pH (you mentioned acidic soils) is that pH has the capacity to drive the form of some ionic species. Different plants/trees utilize different ionic species of a nutrient. For example Phosphorus (Labeled as P2O5 on your fertilizer bag) has various ionic species that different plants hold the capacity to utilize. The ionic species are essentially the bio-available forms of the nutrients. The ionic species of a given nutrient present is driven by pH. pH is the concentration/molarity of hydrogen atoms (H+ for acids, OH- for bases). Therefore, as H+ or OH- builds up in your soils it will change the ionic species of phosphorus. The two ionic phosphorus species plants use are H2PO4- and HPO4 -2. This exchange occurs at a pH of around 7.2. Hence why pH of soil is important. Now in other cases, such as Nitrogen, moisture has the capacity to drive ionic species through bonding. Nitrogen is very water soluble, hence why you can loose nitrogen to the atmosphere if Urea (fertilizer) is left on surface without rain fall). Anyways, what Im getting at is pH of your soil is pretty important when it comes to providing nutrients to your given species of plant.

    Hope something in here helped

    mbenson
    Minocqua, Wisconsin
    Posts: 3842
    #116275

    flatlandfowler:

    First let me say thank you for the links!!!

    Certainly haven’t had time to look everything over and there are many valid points that you provide. Having been a science major, certainly allows me to understand your descriptions better. Will hopefully get a chance to look over some of the links and see if they will yield some ideas…

    We do have a forester that we currently use and I certainly have considered consulting with him as he assisted us in our last cutting, deciduous as well as conifers. Again Thanks, I will periodically after looking at the links, try to write some notes down and perhaps ask some additional questions.

    Mark

    mbenson
    Minocqua, Wisconsin
    Posts: 3842
    #116614

    flatlandfowler:

    Did get some good info out of your links and have one that I need to look over a bit more… Figured out that my soil is probably just slightly acidic and of course wouldn’t make any complete assumptions regarding, but based the majority of the two tree species and adaptive ph’s being in the 6.0-7.0, would mean that anything that I would try to introduce would be in the same ph range.

    Not looking so much to plant trees, though I do know that there are some that are beneficial for deer food such as sumach and apples to name two off the top of my head. They have eaten the 25 rows of white cedar up as high as they can. Your searches also give some ideas to try for other food types as I am not necessarily looking for trees to plant…

    Again thank you for your help!!!

    Mark

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