Scouting mission complete!! Wolves?? WOW!!

Always have enjoyed a little scouting mission inside the vastness of the Minnesota Northwoods. The weekend was filled with grouse flushing, scrape/rub scouting, Shed hunting, and talks of the rifle season to come. Sometimes a price cannot be placed upon the simplicity found within a weekend in the woods.

Grouse numbers seem to be rather robust this year as without a strong effort, and no dog we were fortunate enough to harvest 10 grouse (7 Roughed/3 Spruce) while scouting for scrape lines. It is tough to top Roughed grouse for tablefare at camp!! It is my estimation the Wolf population is really coming on strong. There is a huge uproar taking place locally over an assumed shoulder turning of massive deer reductions taking place within the jaws of the grey wolf. Wolf tracks are very abundant throughout the Minnesota Northoods, and I honestly believe will need to have some attention focused upon by our DNR big Game specialists. There is little denying the endless piles of scat formed of Deer hair in so many areas. Sightings……..Commonplace. Still as only one Minnesota Deer Hunter I will play the hand we’re dealt with, but I would not rule out an organized effort by deer hunters in the Northern half of Minnesota/Wisconsin to demand attention to the matter at hand. There has been an obvious decline in Moose populations over the past many years, and talking with many fellow hunters calves have been easy prey for many T-wolf packs. Kill sites with calf moose have not been uncommon. Deer are simply being hunted in a haunting manor 24 hours a day. Studies have indicated each wolf needs to kill 7 deer per year to simply sustain life. Fuzzy math will clearly draw into focus what the effects of a robust population of wolves will mean to both Deer and moose numbers. Winters haven’t been as tough as in the past several years as when I was a kid, yet still the Minnesota deer herd remains stagnet with again limited doe tags, and few management/bonus tags. From a guy who has hunted the Northoods as a kid, and not doing a estimated count……..Wolves are taking a big toll on the Northern Minnesota Deer herd. Don’t need to accept my opinon as a simple walk in most of Minnesotas pine studded northland will reveal the evidence. I sincerely hope we will manage all of our big game in a proactive fashion as our states Moose/Deer population are needing a voice. I discussed with many hunters recently the overwhelming disgust over a blind eye placed on a rather obvious situation. It is my personal question that poses how we are estimating wolf numbers?? I have a very good idea after spending 2-3 weeks within the northwoods what is taking place. This is NOT isolated to only a few pockets. I promise you as an outdoorsman who thoroughly enjoys the fact that we have wolves roaming our woods we still need proper management. I personally believe there are many solutions to keep everyone happy, but a blind eye isn’t one of them. I believe as do many effective management must be placed in force.

Though simplistic reasearch I’d guess seeing 1 Timberwolf in my first estimated 20 years in the northwoods, and approximately 20 in the past 6 years might be telling us something. If theres is truly X wolves in the state……..MAN am I in the right place at the right time 4 face to face meetings in the past 6 years.

Best of luck to all stepping foot off the trails this season. First of all take all precautions to keep the season of 2010 safe. Introduce a youngster to the passion you enjoy for our lifelong sport!!

We were out doing a little scouting ourselves. Came across some wolf sign as well as moose and deer. I would love to get some pics of wolves and moose on our trail cams. Someday.

Here is a large wolf track we came across. Wonder how the poor little deer felt about being followed.

Wolves , Cant wait to see how many tracks are around my stand this weekend. Might be a better season for wolf hunting then deer hunting.
Wallster ><((((>

Chris, I remember talking to you about your face to face wolf encounters this spring, and all I can tell you is there would have been more urine involved had I been there.
I love the north woods, but I’m also terrified of the woods in the dark. So if anybody would like to volunteer to walk me to my stand I could use the help

Chris,

I hunted between Orr and Cook (know wherer Gheen is?) for many years. I was always amused at the “information” I’d read in the outdoor magazines, because the rules are very different when you’re up to your elbows in wolf sign. They are geting hunted 24/7 and they are paranoid as hell. Myth #1 They’re easy and stupid on opening day. Nope! Myth #2 Put your stand on the edge of a clearing. Nope, they’re walking around behind you. If they get caught in an opening they’ve had it so they never go there. Myth #3 Grunt calls, bleat calls, etc. I NEVER heard a deer make any noise other than a snort when spooked. Make noise, attract attention from predators.

I managed to harvest some nice deer from that area, but it was awfully tough and they were few and far between. If you heard wolves howling in the area then the deer were somewhere else and you might as well sleep in.

In the final analysis I found that I’d rather spend November fishing Walleyes than sitting in a tree not seeing deer.

Rootski

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Chris, I remember talking to you about your face to face wolf encounters this spring, and all I can tell you is there would have been more urine involved had I been there.
I love the northwoods, but I’m also terrified of the woods in the dark. So if anybody would like to volunteer to walk me to my stand I could use the help

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LOL!! Anyone saying they don’t at the very least get a bit of an uneasy feeling creeping through the northwoods in the cover of darkness would likely be lying. Wolves are very unlikely to act aggressive towards human beings, and all that I have encountered wanted nothing to do with me. As I mentioned to you this spring they actually scent you very similiar to what a mature buck will do. If they can’t scent you due to adverse wind direction they will get behind you to clarify what you are. Seen it multiple times. Spooky feeling no doubt. They are born hunters, and when working together as a pack very successful especially on the young, weak, and old animals. Tough winters are double tough on our deer herd do the efficiency of the pads of wolves vs. the hooves of deer. It is pretty cool as we hear them at camp howling, and sometimes we even hear them during the middle of the day as they seem to be celebrating a new kill. I’ve been close enough in climbing stands at times to hear the infighting, and growling taking place as they fight amongst the pack for turns at the decimated animals remains. Wolves make very short work of their kills before moving on again. I talked with another hunter this weekend who mentioned that he heard the attack on a deer, and went to investigate. He was astonished that within 2 hours there was only a sparce scattering of body parts to be recognized with the wolves nowhere in sight anymore.

Wolves are a part of nature, and I personally have a great appreciation for there place in our big game system. I simply believe that if we are taking it upon ourselves as human beings to manage our big game than we MUST closely look at managing these efficient killers before the other species may become out of balance. Yes IMO if populations can become deemed too LOW than they likey can also become too HIGH. I personally am extremely interested in where our state wildlife managers deem our present wolf population to be. Who are we to place a wolves life in front of the life of a deer or moose?? If that population rockets out of control, and either our Northern Mn Herd of deer or Moose should dip below healthy levels what do they have for a plan?? I would assume that a PLAN is part of a proactive approach we as outdoorsman are expecting from the powers to be both managing our Hunting dollars as well as our big game numbers. Just my 3 or 4 cents on this I plan on looking into this further. I am hoping to speak with a big game specialist that may be kind enough to shed some light on many sportsmans concerns. If anyone is interested I’ll gladly report back on my findings.

I’d like to know where my $$ is spent every once in awhile. As it pertains to my rifle, and bow licenses I think it is prudent to have a few Population questions fielded. I have to admit I am also extemely curious on how accurate deer counts are when it pertains to the extreme dense cover of now increasing smaller sections in the northwoods.

Hi Rootski!!

I definately do know where Gheen is, and remember as a kid the ridiculous amounts of deer we’d see roadside driving to camp the night before opener. We’ve been competing with Wolves for many years,and simply have accepted it as part of the challenge. I’ve never hunted deer anywhere besides Northern Minnesota. We’ve managed to do quite well, but it is a completely different hunt than say in the southern part of the state. A good season up here may mean seeing 4-10 deer for the entire season. With that being said I believe you have a chance to cross paths with older deer never encountering a human being if they can outsmart the wolves. Trust me if they have outsmarted wolves for 5 years they will likely also be able to outsmart you and I!! LOL!! Our competition simply speaking revolves around wolves,and winter. The combination can be lethal with an increased wolf population thus my reason for bringing up the topic. I’m not comlaining about our hunting, but really think that the wolves need proper management to ensure optimum populations for all of our game. I have feeling the vast broad population of deer hunters are NOT in agreement DNR actions concerning the balance between deer and wolves.

Trust me There are few times Rainy Lake Walleyes get a break from the Daze camp, and between you and I………I hope they aren’t reading this!! LOL!!

Tight lines Rootski!! Thanks for weighing in!!

agree 100%
i have hunted the same area near gorden wi. for the last 9 years and when i started hunting on a normal day you would see 4-10 per day. then 3 to 4 years ago wolfs started moving in . then last year there was wolfs got so populated to the point were every dirt road or logging road you walked on had tracks everywhere. and the deer numbers started droping siverly to the point where i spent the last 4 days deer hunting every morning and night and i saw 1 deer the whole time. the worst hunting i have seen anywhere.

Chris – I lived in Bemidji for 12 months last year and it is the same chatter going on around there and also an equal concern about dogs being targeted as well. I know of two packs that were well known for eliminating what they saw as competition and they brought in federal trappers to “relocate the wolves”, but oddly it was not widely publicized that the trappers were there. I spoke with a friendly conservation officer about it at a boat landing one evening and he gave me a new perspective about what the MN DNR (and WI DNR) are trying to do but even their arms are getting twisted behind there backs from Washington, as with other states like Montana, Idaho, etc. It was interesting to hear the large concern that the DNR has just as us hunters do but it also sounded like the DNR would only push politics up to a point. In a nut shell it sounded like this…

Conservation Officers feel the same as the public, his boss knows his staff is concerned and knowlegeable, he passes it on aggressively to his boss, who trusts his area office and has heard it from every other office as well, they stress there concerns to their boss who also knows its a big problem but treads lightly because his job is a political nightmare. He can disagree and argue but he cant go down kicking and screaming or he wont have a job. I have grown to have respect for the MN DNR’s directors, but anyone above them and into the US fish & wildlife have spent too much time in politics.

Very good information!! It would not shock me that local offices within the Department of Natural Resources still have their hands tied. With my understanding of the federal de-listing of the wolves off the endangered species list I also thought control was handed back to individual states. My guess would be that IF it has been handed back to statewide game management specialist that they are likely under some strict political pressure from those above likely very distorted views from reality. We’re not that far away from the Ely NWC (National Wolf Center). There is little doubt wolves are back in force, and they aren’t vegetarians. I plan on trying to contact DNR officials today to see what information I can gather. I might guess that it is going to take an organized effort within the deer hunters association to press the issue for resolve to a growing problem. I do believe that if Deer hunters were to say boycott a season the Department of Natural resources on a state level might get a bit more interested in the situation. As Deer hunters we are responsible for huge expenditures far beyond local license fees, and $$ will talk for beyond the water cooler grumbles. I do know that the vast majority of all of the hunters I’ve come into contact seemingly are on the same page on this matter, and have been for MANY MANY years without anything happening besides mass amounts of deer being eaten. I have a buddy who had a big 12 point buck taken down around his deer hunting shack. When I was talking with the local taxidermist the other day he mentioned a big bruiser buck killed by wolves, so I assumed this was the one he was referencing. Sadly it was NOT, and it was a different big racked northwoods deer eaten by a local pack of wolves. Contrary to what might think big bucks are deemed plenty tastey to wolves also,and if you’ve ever heard about problem dogs running deer take that times 50 when it comes to an organized hunt by a pack of wolves.

Personally……..I think that they should get as accurate of a count as possible on our numbers. This will involve no doubt some controversy on what we are deemed to have as a population, but assigning personell to carefully study our numbers would be very wise in my opinion. I’d happily run officials around some of the areas we hunt. Combine statewide populations with statistical average breeding success. Then as Wolves simply have no natural predators sell a pre-determined amount of tags in a lottery fashion to statewide hunters. X amount of tags per smaller section similiar as we are managing does with doe tags. It could be another revenue generation source for the DNR general fund, and hunters would have the satisfaction of helping resolve a problem. A mile north of my house Canadians are harvesting and marketing wolf hunts every year. Guess what……There are still a lot of wolves too.

Great post Chris! There is nothing on earth as exciting as chasing these big north-country bucks. I’ve hunted the BWCA since 1989, both bow and gun seasons, and I look forward to each and every hunt just a child looks forward to presents on Christmas Day.

I whole-heartedly agree with you that Minnesota wolves need proper management. I would like to see it made legal where a hunter could take one incidentally on their deer license…just like black bears used to be…but I think we both know the biggest hurdle (and it is a HUGE hurdle) is getting past all the animal rights groups and environmental activists that will surely, as they have proven in other states, tie any biological management practices up in the courts with lawsuits. How people from big cities in other states that do not even have a wolf population can dictate another state’s ability to manage the animals within its borders is beyond me, but sadly a reflection of the thin skinned and politically correct times we live in.

Anyhow, one thing I wanted to mention about wolves, and predators in general, that most people do not understand is this: PREY SPECIES DICTATE PREDATOR POPULATIONS; meaning if there is no deer/moose there is no wolves. This is a proven fact from the days of Aldo Leopold and Sigurd Olson, to my days as a wildlife student in collage, and remains true to this day. Nature is cylical, as most hunters who chase grouse already know, and it is true with the relationship between deer and wolves too. If you are seeing a lot of wolves/wolf sign than chances are pretty dang good that there is a deer population that is also doing pretty good to sustain those wolves. As the wolves eat up the deer and the deer population drops you will witness a year or two where there is a proportionately higher wolf:deer population, but mother nature doesn’t let that go unchecked and within a short time the the wolf population also drops. Then, slowly, the deer population comes back and so do the wolves. Many people don’t understand that, but it CAN’T work any other way…doesn’t matter if we are talking walleyes, wolves, or people, if there is nothing to eat then it will definately affect those populations that rely on those food sources.

All biology lessons aside, from my own experiences over the years, and my hunting buddy that goes with me, we have actually had our best deer hunting in the BWCA in years that we witnessed sign or heard lot of wolves. Part of it is that Prey/Predator relationship I just explained, but I also think the wolves act as pushers and keep the deer up and moving, they don’t let them get nice and comfy and allow them to hole up in a swamp somewhere. Just my opinion but I think having wolves in the area actually HELPS my deer hunting in many ways. Another thing I have noticed over the years, and the reason I’ve quit doing it, is that I have rattled in way more wolves than bucks for some reason. I believe the sound of clicking antlers is like a dinner bell to those wolves and I imagine they come running thinking they have a golden opportunity to catch one or more bucks preoccupied. Just a guess??? Anyhow, I now limit my calling to grunt calls only and that seems to work better.

I am headed to Ely this weekend for a BWCA bowhunt and I couldn’t imagine being in that country and not having wolves around. I hope the sound of their howls haunts many a northwoods visitor for generations to come, but I also hope, like you, that one day soon we hunters get a crack at helping manage their populations to a level that can sustain them.

Here’s to dreams of BIG dark antlered bucks and the swamps and forests they eke out their existence in!

Chris,
I spent 10 days in September bowhunting elk in Western Montana (my 9th trip in 13 years). The wolf situation is very similar in Montana & Idaho where we hunt. Drainages that had elk sign ridge to ridge are now completely void of any elk sign – replaced by wolf tracks and scat. We would hear wolves howling every morning and the few surviving elk have changed their habits much like the deer and moose in northern MN and WI. 6 hunters in the field for 8 days and not one calf or spike bull was seen by the group. Elk calf recruitment is near zero in the wolf re-introduction zones of MT/ID/WY.

Regarding delisting the wolf from the endangered species act – the delisting was overturned once again in litigation last July. The animal rights extremists have a legal team that does nothing but argue cases against the Federal government (you and me) and they have a judge in Missoula, MT that seems to agree with their goals. Every time the USFWS goes through the lengthy process to delist the timber wolf they are drug back into court and it is overturned.

Here is a link to a letter the governor of Idaho recently sent to the head of the Department of the Interior (boss of the USFWS folks) for your reading enjoyment.
Letter from Gov Otter

There are also bills introduced in Congress that would pass a law to delist the wolves and circumvent the never ending litigation while our big game herds are being decimated.

This subject is near and dear to my heart too.
barc

Gentleman both your sincerity and honesty in your words speaks very highly of the integrity you are representative of as a respected sportsman. Animial rights organizations have repeatedly proven to be inconsistent within their warped sense of our wildlife management realities. Many outdoorsman can’t seem to comprehend why this everyday reality never seems to cross paths with these people. Deer, Moose, and Elk kills within the jaws of wolves are simplly horrific encounters. Maybe they should watch a couple hours of these attacks when inside one of their gatherings so they can come to grips with the efficiency of wolves killing all other big game. Deer are often simply ran to death, and many moose have been witnessed with partial hindquarters torn off leaving a scent trail which will quickly seal their fate. Calves, cubs and fawns are decimated as wolves are anxious for spring births!! I’ve hunted the same general area for 26 years now, and can say firsthand there is a drastic decrease in the Moose population within our section. I have also talked to many Elk hunters much the same as you have referenced with similiar stories. There has been a drastic increase in the wolf population. This is not a road side gross estimate, but physical sightings combined with kill sites, scat, and tracks. I AM NOT a wolf hater, and believe they have a critical place in our enviornment. I simply feel it is incredibly irresponsible to manage big game, and ignore the dominant predator. Those who Hug the nightime killer seeemingly must someday understand that decimating big game populations, and then witnessing a huge die off of the beloved when the chosend prey becomes a scarcity is extremely terrible management of a resource. Forcing Wolves to find other sources of food will without a doubt create larger concerns for all of our domestic animals, and little question those sitting with the blood on their hands SHOULD have to provide the reactive soloutions of an extremely poorly thought out strategy.

Again…….I speak only for myself on this topic, but I’ll go on the record saying that without proper management of wolves instituted very quickly we will witness a ridiculous reactive plan, and irresponsible waste of big game. Someone needs to take responsibilty for the endless big game blood on their hands.

I currently have a call in with the Department of Natural Resources in which I’ve requested to talk with either a big game specialist or wildlife management representative. Assuming I receive a call back I will certainly forward any information to help bring some clarity to a foggy situation concerning this matter.

Good Luck!
The problem is not the DNR its the “fern feelin, bunnie huggers” who live down south. Your typical “citi-idiot” thinks “outdoors” is sitting in club seats at the new u of MN stadium!
The idea of wolves running loose in the north woods makes them feel better about themselves when they write that check to the Sierra Club!
Its the same people who think that gun control is a good thing and why would anyone want to shoot a deer when you can get tasty burger at Lunds!

Same problem out here ” uh where are all the Elk?”
“Ohh thats right “wolfie” needed some num nums”

All politics are local so my suggestion would be to vote for candidates who have a outdoor pedigree!
Sorry Mark Dayton golf at Woodhill doesn’t count.
Sorry Mr Oberstar but fixing your crappy [censored] bill so that fishing guides do not have to get a TWIC (sp?) card doesn’t count!

Well said Mr Rainy Daze!

LOL!! Aaah how did I know politics would likely place a storm cloud over the crystal clear solutions of wildlife management to so many. That was a very entertaining read UT!! Wouldnt’ expect anything else from a gunslinger in Montana!! LOL!! I’ve still got a call in to the MN DNR’s big game specialist. I’m increasingly interested in his personal viewpoints, and every minute that passes without a ring on our telephone finds me scribbling down more questions. I’m also trying to get into contact with the Minnesota Deer hunters association so they might weigh in on their stance. Seems they will need to be a player for a universal voice of at least the Deer hunters in our state.

I will say as I once expected that this is very disturbing knowing the obvious beatdown big game have taken across the midwest without any political backbone to intercept a widely accepted problem of mismanagement within the hands of some. I do know that I sincerely hope they don’t develop the same love for Northern Pike. They indeed are the wolves of the water.

I am very interested in the view points from our appointed big game specialist.

Call and email into Mark Johnson with the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association. If I’m correct Mark and I used to train our young bird dogs together back in the day in Southern Minnesota . Very excited to talk with him, and share his insight with our followers on this matter. If it is the Mark I’m thinking he is we are in good hands. Mark is a very passionate outdoorsman,and used to take me bird hunting as a kid. It would be of no shock to me that he is holding the position he is within the Deer Hunters association. It is scary how life crosses the paths of people sharing the same sense of passion inside the great outdoors.

Not sure I should bring it up but here goes anyways!

Controlling Populations….good question…we need another war…..or new disease to control us…..maybe…. Just fuel for thought….it’s nature way and it will happen at some point.

Whatsa

Had the chance to speak with our Big Game specialist within the MNDNR. He thought that he might have heard of In Depth Outdoors before, but wasn’t certain. First off no doubt about it Wolf discussions have many people taking an immediate defensive posture. Few individuals including appointed specialists within our DNR are very eager to discuss in great detail the federally protected wolf packs. Thank you Sir for the information you did share with me, and I greatly appreciate your honesty as well as your time!! The implications of increased wolf populations on the Northern Minnesota Deer herd are not deemed to be an issue. As pointed out by our big game specialist on several occassions “Wolf Management” is not within his assigned duties. This of course is true as wolves contine to be under federal protection hung up in the court systems. It was my hope that our appointed specialist handed the critical task of big game management might share his personal opinion on “Wolf Management”. I was assured he didn’t have one to share. With this being said he doesn’t currently have control over Minnesotas wolf packs. That is fact, and that we must accept. He made it clear that the state of Minnesota is currenly seeking that authority along with other states. He mentioned to me that the State of Minnesota is cocked and ready to implement a Statewide Wolf Management program should the Federal delisting avoid future snags. I was not granted access to this plan, but assume discussions and planning have taken place if we are handed the ball.

It was mentioned to me that Minnesota has experienced at times very high deer counts that called for increased management at the same time of robust wolf numbers. I do not know if the Statewide Deer herd was broken up in sections for specific breakdowns or if a southern/Northern count of deer was lumped together. The Deer/Wolf relationship is not considered by him to be cyclical, moreover a predator to prey up and down swing hasn’t been documented or studied.

I questioned how the state goes about estimating the deer herd in the newly reduced sections sizes since some are so dense in cover, and this is how I was told our Deer numbers are currently calculated. The previous years registered Deer numbers combined with the winter severity index also taking into account a wounded deer (Non-recovery) estimate of roughly 10-15%. Based on these combined statistics our herd is given an estimate in which we are issued tags upon. So…….with this being said if you have a bunch of guys playing cards at deer camp, or worse yet not registering deer (Which is of course against the law) your section may be negatively impacted with next years allotment of tags issued. Beyond that the numbers may be mistated, and these are estimates at best. This of course influences management tags along with doe permits given out in seperate sections. Predation is not something that I understood to be factored into the equation, or has been deemed difficult to calculate. I greatly appreciate the time given to me while fielding my questions, and beyond that to shed light on a “hot button” topic within the Deer Hunters of the Midwest region. I assure you this is not a popular subject to discuss, but our big game also needs leaders willing to ask/field tough questions. Many outdoorsman believe there to be a severe communication gap between the powers to be, and simple hunters like ourselves.

Of course I didn’t squander my granted time while I mentioned the obvious drastic increase in our area wolf population. I sighted several examples of firsthand experiences in now our even smaller section we hunt within. He did not question my findings of a wolf increase. He did correct me when I stated Wolves as the #1 Predator by stating hunters are the #1 predator. I backtracked by stating “Agreed………..#2 predator”

In closing it is my personal belief when it comes to predation in many Northern Minnesota sections that Wolves, contrary to what I was corrected upon may very well be the #1 predator killing more deer in their jaws than man does by slinging arrows or spinning lead. I look forward to gathering further hard #’s on hunter participation estimates (licenses sold) and Deer registration should this be public knowledge which I have granted access. I will compile this information for myself unbiased or threatened, and then decide whether a wolf harvesting 7 deer per year to survive times an estimated amount of wolves in that particular section isn’t something we should be concerned over. I’ll look to study the deer registered in several Northern Minnesota sections in comparison to hunters hunting, and wolves thriving. The peace of mind by investing the time to seek the answers to my questions will keep me temporarily satisfied for the time being.

Just in case you wanted to know!!

Figured it out on why the deer birth rate is not as healthy as it should be! Wolves? Sheesh!

Oh my UT!!

In thinking about this a little more I now clearly understand the seemingly simplistic approach we’ve employed when it comes to statewide population counts of our Deer herd. Harvest + Deer lost in accordance to a Winter Severity indicator + a Wounded Deer percentage of roughly 10-15%.

SO…….I guess the prudent question would be how do officials claim to know the population of wolves?? Or do we??

I was also told that Moose populations declines are continuing to be caused by the brain worm or another disease, and that wolves likely won’t kill adult moose. Well I can hereby tell you firsthand I’ve witnessed both an adult moose kill site, and a adult moose with her Hindquarters ripped nearly off leaving a death trail for wolves. I also believe wholeheartedly Calf moose are being decimated as incredibly easy prey. Much larger than say a fawn which would provide a greater bang for the buck pardon my pun.

A simple search on Youtube will likely direct you quickly to several complete decimations of Bull elk, so I’m not so quick to be “on board” with a philosophy that wolves don’t mess with an adult moose. Besides the fact that I’ve witnessed this firsthand. I do however believe with the extreme Isolated cover that many moose inhabit would certainly make this much tougher to prove.