Might as well talk to a wall. Stadium Rant

Bought a new shirt the other day…

As we all have learned the stadiums are coming like it or not.

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1) hand Ziggy a check for $250 million and the Metro Dome. He can use the money any way he wants. Build a new palace, remodel the dome, stick it in his pocket. I don’t care what he does. He signs a 20 year lease and we hand him the title and check.

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That’s an interesting concession from an anti-stadium guy.

Really you want to give him 250 of the 500 mill that he wants?

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The state of MN is already one of the highest taxed states and they can’t even balance the budget. Anybody who thinks they should raise any sort of tax to fund a stadium should really have their head examined.

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yet people supported a tax increase for dedicated funding…

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1) hand Ziggy a check for $250 million and the Metro Dome. He can use the money any way he wants. Build a new palace, remodel the dome, stick it in his pocket. I don’t care what he does. He signs a 20 year lease and we hand him the title and check.

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That’s an interesting concession from an anti-stadium guy.

Really you want to give him 250 of the 500 mill that he wants?

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Yep I do. It will be the cheapest route to go. If he takes the dome you have no additional infrastructure cost unlike you will need for Anoka, St. Paul or where ever.

He also wants much more then 500 million. Last projection is $791 million with a fixed roof stadium. Ziggy wants a retractable roof which will push the cost upwards of 1 billion dollars. Bagley almost gagged when the bill this week mentioned that Ziggy would need to write a check for 261 million ( or was it 269 million?).

Do you think Ziggy can make the dome work if he has $250 million and doesn’t need to dip into his pockets at all?

Another thing to consider. It’s the NFL pushing for a new stadium as much as it is Ziggy. It’s the same as the players union not wanting Mauer to take a under valued contract from the Twins. All the other owners need to Vikings to succeed. Otherwise their extortion attempts in other cities will fail also.

“By the people, for the people.” Anybody know where this quote comes from?

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But the voters said no.

That’s my point. We all want to pull for “our side” whether it’s for or against. But all these points are over ridden by the voters saying….

NO.

I’m I the cheese standing alone?

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Shall we vote on every road and bridge project, every tax break and incentive given to every business in the state? Every welfare program, every veterans program, on and on and on?

How many people are culturally attached to the many businesses getting tax breaks and incentives from the state government right now? How many bring more money to the state than the Vikings do? How many of these other incentives and tax breaks are you vocal against?

The very fact you feel the need to stand up vocally against this one shows how many people on the other side give a crap about it.

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Wasn’t the (vast) majority of the proposes users fees? How many metro hotels do you stay in Brian? How many rental cars do you rent in the metro? How much NFL merchandise/memoribilia do you buy (I can guess on that. ).

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Does anyone know if the “user fees” implemented to build the metrodome were ever dropped once the dome was paid for?

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That’s a good question. In fact, I think the heart of this proposal was actually not new fees (aside from the memoribillia), but rather an extension of fees in place to fund the Minneapolis convnention center.

Let’s cut more eduction, welfare and healthcare funding so the wealthy have another loophole so they can avoid paying taxes….

We wonder why America is dumbing down? Do you have kids in the school system and if so are you an active partner? If so I think it’s pretty sad to see how the education system needs an overhaul. How will that get done with the non-stop budgert cuts….

Where did “…the gov’t of the people, by the people, for the people” go?

But maybe Ruger has it right – if more FB fans don’t have the Vikes to sate their desires they will end up on the lakes, rivers and reserviors and personally I think they are busy enough….

Just remember come election time, your vote DOES count! Use it wisely….

Enuf

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Shall we vote on every road and bridge project…

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No…but we did on this one.

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The state of MN is already one of the highest taxed states and they can’t even balance the budget. Anybody who thinks they should raise any sort of tax to fund a stadium should really have their head examined.

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yet people supported a tax increase for dedicated funding…

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Dedicated funding was designed to protect our natural resources, of which there is a limited supply.

There is no limited supply of millionaires wanting to step up to the public trough.

Apples and Oranges.

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FWIW, the Vikings payroll is $100mm, through in staff and you probably get to $110-120mm?

That is $10 million/year of state income taxes.

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I’m not sure that’s really accurate. The way I understand it, state income taxes go by where the income is earned. 8 road games means that half of the salary is taxed by MN and the other half by whatever states they play in. I’m pretty sure I read that somewhere when that argument was used to try and get funding for Lambeau form the state of WI.

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You are correct. But, the visiting team has to pay MN state income taxes. The Vikes are middle of the road for annual payroll, so we would get roughly the same amount from the visting teams. So divide my number for Vikes tax by 2 for 1/2 the games and multiply be 2 for the visiting team doubling the number of players.

I just didnt want to confuse Brian K.

I really dont know what the right answer is. I would love to cut out a bunch spending on other things and build a stadium (net budget neutral, no new taxes), but I dont see that happening.

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I just didnt want to confuse Brian K.

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Too late!

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But the voters said no.

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And in 2012 they’ll be saying yes. Ok, maybe it will take a year without football. In 2013 they will be saying yes. As many have pointed out, people are stupid. Can’t see the forest for the trees.

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Let’s cut more eduction, welfare and healthcare funding so the wealthy have another loophole so they can avoid paying taxes….

We wonder why America is dumbing down? Do you have kids in the school system and if so are you an active partner? If so I think it’s pretty sad to see how the education system needs an overhaul. How will that get done with the non-stop budgert cuts….

Where did “…the gov’t of the people, by the people, for the people” go?

But maybe Ruger has it right – if more FB fans don’t have the Vikes to sate their desires they will end up on the lakes, rivers and reserviors and personally I think they are busy enough….

Just remember come election time, your vote DOES count! Use it wisely….

Enuf

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Please explain the correlation between spending on education and what is learned. Why can private schools keep up spending 1/3 or 1/2 of what public schools do? We WASTE WAY too much money on education, plenty of fat there.

What happens when you spend more on welfare? You get more people on welfare. Unemployment now extended for 2 years? If you are unemployed for two years, are you really simply getting over a rough spot????

Speaking of loopholes, the funny thing is, a recent econometric study showed how income tax rate really has little correlation to the amount of taxes collected. Tax revenues are always within +/- 1% of a percentage of GNP (18%, if I recall). The more you raise taxes, the less people report, and the more they hide. The lower the rate, the more honest people are and the less effort they put into avoiding taxes. The only real way to raise tax revenue is through growth.

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Wasn’t the (vast) majority of the proposes users fees? How many metro hotels do you stay in Brian? How many rental cars do you rent in the metro? How much NFL merchandise/memoribilia do you buy (I can guess on that. ).

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Does anyone know if the “user fees” implemented to build the metrodome were ever dropped once the dome was paid for?

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That’s a good question. In fact, I think the heart of this proposal was actually not new fees (aside from the memoribillia), but rather an extension of fees in place to fund the Minneapolis convnention center.

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Yup, that’s what the articles say. The point I’m slowly trying to get at is these project specific user fees never seem to go away once the intended objective has been accomplished (paying for the MCC). What’s the difference between a tax increase and a user fee that never goes away?

Big Gov politicians love it when their constituents line up to back a new user fee because they know a new user fee will have a HIGH probability of being perpetual… and the voters “lemming up” when they’re tied to pet projects.

3 BILLION DOLLAR SHORTFALL!!!!!

How hard is it for politicians and people to understand.

We…don’t…have…the…money!

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Dave, I’m not being too stubborn…well, maybe I am.

But the voters said no.

That’s my point. We all want to pull for “our side” whether it’s for or against. But all these points are over ridden by the voters saying….

NO.

I’m I the cheese standing alone?

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Just because the majority says no doesnt mean the answer is really no. Just look at the health care bill.

Im still irritated about the Twins stadium and I dont live in MLPS. I dont watch sports ever so the entire thing is a huge waste of tax money for me. As well as paying for about a billion other things I get no benefit from. Id rather see that money dumped in to a fund for improving our natural resources. What is wrong with the Dome? Cut the top off the damn thing and grow some real grass in there. All of which shouldnt be paid for with tax dollars. Bunch of over paid or rich babys. As far as the non union labor, I work for a non union contractor that gets state jobs and we end up making prevailing wage so it costs the same anyway. Nice for Me but still stupid in the big picture.

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3 BILLION DOLLAR SHORTFALL!!!!!

How hard is it for politicians and people to understand.

We…don’t…have…the…money!

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Umm, think the shortfall is related to loss of jobs?

No work, no jobs, no jobs, no payroll, no payroll, no spending, no spending, no taxes, no taxes = umm tax shortage?

Hey that wasn’t so hard to figure out!!

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3 BILLION DOLLAR SHORTFALL!!!!!

How hard is it for politicians and people to understand.

We…don’t…have…the…money!

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Umm, think the shortfall is related to loss of jobs?

No work, no jobs, no jobs, no payroll, no payroll, no spending, no spending, no taxes, no taxes = umm tax shortage?

Hey that wasn’t so hard to figure out!!

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When I don’t have money, I dont spend.

People seem to think its ok for government to spend money they don’t have.

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Let’s cut more eduction, welfare and healthcare funding so the wealthy have another loophole so they can avoid paying taxes….

We wonder why America is dumbing down? Do you have kids in the school system and if so are you an active partner? If so I think it’s pretty sad to see how the education system needs an overhaul. How will that get done with the non-stop budgert cuts….

Where did “…the gov’t of the people, by the people, for the people” go?

But maybe Ruger has it right – if more FB fans don’t have the Vikes to sate their desires they will end up on the lakes, rivers and reserviors and personally I think they are busy enough….

Just remember come election time, your vote DOES count! Use it wisely….

Enuf

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I agree, we are only 10 trillion in the hole as a country because nary a politician at any level does anything but spend money that does not exist, but let’s keep throwing money at a problem, that sounds like a great solution for education, welfare and healthcare, as it has gotten us so far over the last 50 years or so…

Yes, I am an active parent for my two kids in school because I realize that is MY responsibility not the governments to raise them. It was something I thought about and accepted before I had children.

Welcome to the new home of your MN Vikings. Just need to get that pesky “alcohol for all” instituted.

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Im still irritated about the Twins stadium and I dont live in MLPS. I dont watch sports ever so the entire thing is a huge waste of tax money for me. As well as paying for about a billion other things I get no benefit from. Id rather see that money dumped in to a fund for improving our natural resources.

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There are plenty of Twins fans who feel the same way about Natural Resources that they don’t use.

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Wasn’t the (vast) majority of the proposes users fees? How many metro hotels do you stay in Brian? How many rental cars do you rent in the metro? How much NFL merchandise/memoribilia do you buy (I can guess on that. ).

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Does anyone know if the “user fees” implemented to build the metrodome were ever dropped once the dome was paid for?

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That’s a good question. In fact, I think the heart of this proposal was actually not new fees (aside from the memoribillia), but rather an extension of fees in place to fund the Minneapolis convnention center.

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Yup, that’s what the articles say. The point I’m slowly trying to get at is these project specific user fees never seem to go away once the intended objective has been accomplished (paying for the MCC). What’s the difference between a tax increase and a user fee that never goes away?

Big Gov politicians love it when their constituents line up to back a new user fee because they know a new user fee will have a HIGH probability of being perpetual… and the voters “lemming up” when they’re tied to pet projects.

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I see your point, however, I don’t really mind as much the taxes being passed on to visitors and users as much as everyone. No one is not going to some to the Twin Cities and instead go to Chicago or St. Louis or whereever due to a 1% increase in hotel and rental car taxes. Would you pick San Diego over Miami simply because of a 1% difference in the cost of the hotel tax? More than likely, you would pick one destination over the other based soley on other, more important criteria. If the new stadium can bring a Super Bowl or Final Four to town, those hotels and rental companies will likely make up any loss of revenue in one weekend.

In the abstract world of doing things on “principal”, I agree the user taxes many times become long term “taxes”. however, I don’t think even then it equates to an across the board sales tax increase, or income tax increase.

Aren’t fishing license fees basically a perpetual user tax?

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But the voters said no.

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And in 2012 they’ll be saying yes. Ok, maybe it will take a year without football. In 2013 they will be saying yes. As many have pointed out, people are stupid. Can’t see the forest for the trees.

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How much did that line of thinking end up costing Cleveland? I think the stadium they shot down was over 1/2 less expensive than the expantion fees and new stadium they ended up paying for.

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The state of MN is already one of the highest taxed states and they can’t even balance the budget. Anybody who thinks they should raise any sort of tax to fund a stadium should really have their head examined.

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yet people supported a tax increase for dedicated funding…

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Dedicated funding was designed to protect our natural resources, of which there is a limited supply.

There is no limited supply of millionaires wanting to step up to the public trough.

Apples and Oranges.

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A tax increase, is a tax increase.

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Aren’t fishing license fees basically a perpetual user tax?

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Moss

I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. Anyone that buys a fishing license is going to participate in the sport of fishing thereby deriving the expected benefit (enjoyment, food, etc.) whereas many, many people will eat in those restaurants and stay in those hotels and never get anywhere near a football game.

How about a user fee assessed on and only on the users of the new football stadium versus broad user fees assessed on good and services that may not be purchased by a person headed to a football game?

Why has how other teams built their new stadiums not been figured out..

OK, here you go

1. All season ticket holders pay a seat license fee. When you do not want the seats any longer you get refunded and the next seat holder pays the same license. This is a good portion of revenue for a new stadium.

2. The NFL kicks in some money

3. The Vikings kick in money

4. The Vikings offer stock in the team to raise revenue

4. The governemnt only helps with possible road changes

Why is this formula not being followed here ?

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Welcome to the new home of your MN Vikings. Just need to get that pesky “alcohol for all” instituted.

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Welcome to the new home of your MN Vikings. Just need to get that pesky “alcohol for all” instituted.

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They won’t do it. I am sure the consumption rate among U of M students has gone down dramatically because of this policy.

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Aren’t fishing license fees basically a perpetual user tax?

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Moss

I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. Anyone that buys a fishing license is going to participate in the sport of fishing thereby deriving the expected benefit (enjoyment, food, etc.) whereas many, many people will eat in those restaurants and stay in those hotels and never get anywhere near a football game.

How about a user fee assessed on and only on the users of the new football stadium versus broad user fees assessed on good and services that may not be purchased by a person headed to a football game?

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I don’t have a problem with that at all. All I would like in this stadium talk is more work on alternate funding and less outright just say no, as was the basic purpose of this thread.

The one user, which becomes hard to target with a user fee, is the home TV watcher of the games. I guess maybe they could charge a tax on commercials shown during the games?

The hotel/rental taxes (resteraunts are not included are they?) I believe are set as more the hotels/rental car places are the real users and beneficiaries of the stadiums, not the hotel guests and car renters.