Union – (Pro’s and) Con’s

Well done rookie.

Construction….please…

There is reason you see union construction only on schools and churches.(taxes)

The “real world” is residential…..dealing with everyday people.

Out of the union people I know….they want to make money, but no one should make money off of them. It’s the wrong attitude and it does NOT help our economy.

Quote:

---

There is nothing in the agreement that says I can’t pay a guy or gal more than the agreed upon wage, I just can’t pay them less.

---

Rookie does this really every happen where a union worker gets paid more by the company than the union wage? Most union positions are grossly overpaid versus the market rate. Why else would a union “secretary” shuffling paperwork at our USA port terminals as part of the longshoreman’s union get paid $80,000 plus per year to sit at a window and shuffle paperwork? Not to mention the union crane charging $6,500 per hour and the crane rate non-union being $1,500 per hour at our U.S ports. Who do you think pays the extra costs on all our products? We American’s do with price increases in our products when the union is involved. Gary hit the nail on the head if it’s not for safety issues regulations such as coal mining, unions are unneccesary and only inflate the cost of businesses competing. Just ask GM and Ford.

i do not have a union job, and would never want one. I do what is necessary to better myself and get the promotions and the pay increases. i know for a fact that i not only have a better job, but better pay then some of the people at my company that do similar work. why is that? because i’m a better employee and have more to offer. and with a union, i would never have that opportunity.

and if i do lose my job to the bosses kid, yeah, i’ll be upset, but it won’t the end of the world, because i’ve built myself with the necessary skills and tools to succeed in my industry, therefore, even in a tough market, i am desirable, and will find another job.

Don’t forget Chrysler…

big G

Quote:

---

Don’t forget Chrysler…

---

Agreed.

In a nutshell its summed up:

What happens when labor unions make employers increase workers wages?

Inflation goes up, cost of living goes up, cost of goods goes up, cost of insurance goes up, companies raises the cost of products produced, companies look for labor out side of the country, companies find cheaper labor abroad, companies reduce workforce, company closes a few factories, company sends more jobs out of the country, company closes more factories, union employees lose jobs, union disolves, company closes all operations in the US, changes name to Oragami inc. unemployment rate goes up. The unemployed that formaly worked for the company increase the tax burden on the rest of the nation, medical costs go up because of the burden, welfare and unemployment goes broke, country goes into recession, prison population goes up…….etc…etc…..Its a vicious circle.

In my opinion the unions are only looking out for themselves and are reaping what they sow.

And what a discovery! The pro’s will never change the minds of the con’s and the con’s will never change the minds of the pro’s. This item has been hashed over so many times on this site and others that you’d think we’d learn to just leave it alone.

Shame on me.

But just one last comment. Unions are no different really than any other organization you may belong to. In other words, DU PF NRA ect. We belong because we want whatever we think is best for us and we pay dues/memberships to get it. Right?

Quote:

---

And what a discovery! The pro’s will never change the minds of the con’s and the con’s will never change the minds of the pro’s. This item has been hashed over so many times on this site and others that you’d think we’d learn to just leave it alone.

Shame on me.

---

Sure let’s just bury our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn’t exist that’s working great for our country…

Herb, I still like you more than Bk. Not as much as Mary though!

Rookie,
I do agree with some of your comments but am scratching my head regarding your industrial plant example. My guess is the industrial plant you are using in your example is most likely a government contract. Either that or a publicly held company that is forced to hire union contractors. Why else would any organization/company hire a union contractor at a 55.00 per hour rate per employee when it could hire a 20.00 per hour rate employee to do the same work? It doesn’t make sense unless they are forced to do so. Not that the government would ever do something as foolish as that.

I’m sure the union folks think they are that much more skilled and productive they are worth the extra dollars.

As you stated, the non union company has mainly illegals working for them. Maybe they have some, but is sounds more like a convenient union excuse to bash their competition.

You also make it sound like the non-union company was getting as much for the job as the union company and the owners are pocketing alot more profit than the union company owners. Again, highly doubtful.

Quote:

---

Construction….please…

There is reason you see union construction only on schools and churches.(taxes)

The “real world” is residential…..dealing with everyday people.

Out of the union people I know….they want to make money, but no one should make money off of them. It’s the wrong attitude and it does NOT help our economy.

---

I will say that we are building alot of schools this year, but that is only because of the economy. When we can stay busy with commercial building, we don’t even bid school work. If you think that more there are more jobs building houses you are sadly mistaken!

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

There is nothing in the agreement that says I can’t pay a guy or gal more than the agreed upon wage, I just can’t pay them less.

---

Rookie does this really every happen where a union worker gets paid more by the company than the union wage? Most union positions are grossly overpaid versus the market rate. Why else would a union “secretary” shuffling paperwork at our USA port terminals as part of the longshoreman’s union get paid $80,000 plus per year to sit at a window and shuffle paperwork? Not to mention the union crane charging $6,500 per hour and the crane rate non-union being $1,500 per hour at our U.S ports. Who do you think pays the extra costs on all our products? We American’s do with price increases in our products when the union is involved. Gary hit the nail on the head if it’s not for safety issues regulations such as coal mining, unions are unneccesary and only inflate the cost of businesses competing. Just ask GM and Ford.

---

I can only speak for construction NOT manufacturing and I can only speak about our company as I don’t know or care about what others are doing to stay competitive and profitable but more the 20% our our union workers are paid over the scale that we are required to pay them. If you want to have the best people, you need to reward them. Do it with the right people and it will be done right the first time. Re-work dramatically impacts the bottom line!

Quote:

---

Rookie,
I do agree with some of your comments but am scratching my head regarding your industrial plant example. My guess is the industrial plant you are using in your example is most likely a government contract. Either that or a publicly held company that is forced to hire union contractors. Why else would any organization/company hire a union contractor at a 55.00 per hour rate per employee when it could hire a 20.00 per hour rate employee to do the same work? It doesn’t make sense unless they are forced to do so. Not that the government would ever do something as foolish as that.

I’m sure the union folks think they are that much more skilled and productive they are worth the extra dollars.

As you stated, the non union company has mainly illegals working for them. Maybe they have some, but is sounds more like a convenient union excuse to bash their competition.

You also make it sound like the non-union company was getting as much for the job as the union company and the owners are pocketing alot more profit than the union company owners. Again, highly doubtful.

---

My example was a publicly traded company whose workers are NON union. I have no idea how much profit the non union company made on there portion of the job. These jobs are not bid as a dollar/hr contract but rather as one dollar amount to complete the scope of work.

As a general rule, union workers are more skilled. My opinion is this is because of the schooling/appreticeship programs required through the unions. During this training, safety is also instilled and union workers come to the job site ready for work…all the necessary training and certifications.

In this example, they were mostly illegals. I wasn’t complaining about it. It is currently a fact of life. In our business, cheap labor usually comes with little or no training. Without having properly trained employees at both their craft and safety doesn’t work. Have a few work related accidents and see how much you insurance goes up. See how much the cheap labor really costs you.

As far as how much profit the non-union was pocketing, I don’t have a clue. But in my example the non-union company was less the 3% under my bid for the exact same scope of work on over a million dollar contract for the portion of the job the performed. I was less the 2% under the 2nd low bidder on over a million dollar contract for the portion of work we performed on this project. Believe what you want but this is a cold hard fact!

I wasn’t trying to ruffle and feathers or bash non union companies. Some of my best friends have non union construction companies. They call me a lazy union man and I call them dirty rat bast#$@Ds…its all in fun and we all have our own opinions and thoughts and I believe that we are still entitled to them.

Rookie….of course there is more work in commercial….IT’S TAX DOLLARS at work In case I didn’t say that already.

I agree somewhat that union workers are skilled (most way more skilled than average in their own minds) because of the reasons you stated. Do you know why? It’s because the general public is very uhhh, ummm, cheap.

Like I said, the real world construction is in residential. Not saying it is better or worse, just saying it is more….well ya know, real construction.

If you have buddy’s who actually own a real business in construction(doing the business end and the labor end), I’m sure you have heard all this before.

Just take a look at the posts for construction here. Most people care about price #1 over quality#2. If they are big spenders, they usually try to get a happy medium.

Quote:

---

but more the 20% our our union workers are paid over the scale that we are required to pay them. If you want to have the best people, you need to reward them. Do it with the right people and it will be done right the first time. Re-work dramatically impacts the bottom line!

---

I truly commend you and your company for recognizing the importance of the true assets of a company and that being the employee’s. My hat’s off to you, very honorable.

What union are you thinking about joining or is the union trying to organize your company???? I am a Local 150 operating engineer and would not work for another NON union company ever again. There are so many good things with the union it is unbelievable. My dad and brother are both Local 411 UAW brothers as well.

prevailing wage

Commercial constuction is just as much real construction as residential. I went from residential to commercial, I always thought the commercial guys had it easy. There is definatly more phases and people and coordination that goes into a commercial building. But all in all its just diffrent methods and obviously size.

Might as well add my 2 cents! For the young man that started this post. the union was contacted for a reason could be for alot of reasons no raises, low pay, favortism, not being paid correctly, bad management, benefits, unsafe, changing the rules as they go type atmosphere. You have to make your decision based on what the organizers say & what the company tells you. All I can tell you if you win your election get involved with whats within your Union Because you as members are the Union Stick together as a group you’ll be fine. Read your contract know your contract ask to be on the negiotating team. That the difference between a good union & a good contract. Its a democratic process and thats how the decisions are & should be made. Don’t let all the hub-ub about Ford, Chevy & Chrysler make your decision Just because all those companies top dogs make 50 to 100 times more than the UAW employees. How much do they need to live on. Then theres talk about we as americans wages to high and we as Americans driving bussiness out of our country. Why is when they leave their prices don’t go down they go up all the while they pay no benefits & slave wages to employee’s say in Mexico! It all comes to greed. For 30 years i’ve never needed the Union to save my job. I simply want the union to negoitate my money & benefits & give a voice in the workplace.I’m a 30 year member of the Laborers Union & in 12 years will enjoy a pension until the day I die. Pros outway the cons. Good luck with your election. Send me a PM if you want any UNION info!!!
Phil Putnam

I can speak for the hub bub of Chrysler. Chrysler is/was still paying employees health insurance, and 80% of their wages, when they haven’t set foot in the factory for over 20 years !!! These are what are called legacy costs. Who could predict that health care would be 20 times more, than it was when these old contracts were negotiated ??? Who could predict people would start living 10-15 years longer, since the contracts were wrote. This all comes back to “don’t give a thing back” basically, it broke the company. Most CEO’s make a good wage (they are not union either) And to answer the question about jobs leaving, they don’t neccessarily have to leave…. look at Toyota… non-union, cars cost more, better perceived quality, all with non-union workers….. wonder why ??? NO LEGACY costs….. & if you don’t do your job at Toyota, they show you the door and there isn’t 4 lawyers standing there, fighting for you to keep your job…er I mean dues. When will the union see that pensions and healthcare for life, are not normal in most jobs, most people have 401K’s. Who wouldn’t want to be taken care of cradle to grave ? When the unions were first formed, how many OSHA and State Laws were there to protect employees ??? How many are there now ??? Who has ever heard of FMLA ??? Seems like the union is outdated, at least in a manufacturing setting. If the poster would like to PM me, please do. I can tell you, if your a hard worker and want to get ahead, how the union will hold you back. I have been there. DONE.

big G

Your figuires on the ‘legacy costs’ are a bit off big G.
There is no healthcare for life. It stops when they hit medicare/medicaid age.
80% wages is off also. It’s more like 50% or less, depending on how many years beyond 30 you put in. And when you turn 62yrs, you lose nearly half of that.
Toyota doesn’t see legacy costs yet just because they haven’t been going here long enough. It will be there some day tho. Just remember, these contracts are sighned off on both sides and nobody held a gun to anybody’s head to do so.
I guess we all can spin this whichever way we please. I just feel the facts need to be put forth.
I report, you decide.

The numbers I gave, are from contracts that are 30 years old. You may be quoting recent contracts. I am talking about people who have retired on a contract that was written in the early 80’s. Toyota will NOT have legacy costs, there is no “contract” See article below…..

The crippling UAW legacy cost problems are not unique to Chrysler, and they are going to get a lot worse in the future for all of the Big Three automakers.

In 2005, GM provided health and income benefits to more than 450,000 retirees and their surviving spouses, and retirees and their dependents outnumbered the company’s active workforce by three-to-one. This imbalance will continue to grow as more and more retirees are supported by fewer and fewer workers, especially since a) nearly a third of GM’s hourly workforce signed up for payout packages in 2006, resulting in even more retirees and fewer active workers, b) GM continues to lose market share and rising legacy costs get spread over fewer and fewer vehicles.

Bottom Line: The UAW is the most successful union in U.S. history, at achieving both higher-than-market wages and below-market productivity for its members, in the short run. But that very union success has now created the seeds of a powerful destruction that we are witnessing today, and in the long run the success of the UAW is destroying thousands and thousands, and maybe millions of union jobs, and is destroying many of the very companies that employs its members (GM, Ford and Chrysler).

The UAW’s golden era is over. Unless its leaders and members concede that it’s been overtaken by economic reality and begin to act accordingly, both the UAW and Big Three will go the way of the dodo bird.

big G

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

but more the 20% our our union workers are paid over the scale that we are required to pay them. If you want to have the best people, you need to reward them. Do it with the right people and it will be done right the first time. Re-work dramatically impacts the bottom line!

---

I truly commend you and your company for recognizing the importance of the true assets of a company and that being the employee’s. My hat’s off to you, very honorable.

---

Wasn’t looking for a pat on the back, just giving my perspective. If you want to be the best, you need to hire and retain the best employees

Been a UAW memeber for over 36 years and a steward for 25+ of those. A working on the line steward I might add. It was my job to understand what was in the contracts.
I guess I have the inside scoop on what they really contain. Don’t forget about the big concessions the UAW made just before bankruptcy. Left the retirees out in the cold.
Nice!
New hires make less than the new hires at Toyota.
Nice!

My problem with Toyota isn’t their cars or trucks, its if UNION LABOR drives up the total cost of American owned & made cars & trucks then why isn’t there a significate savings when you buy a toyota. Why is that you can’t go to China,Japan, Korea & buy a Ford, Chevy, Or Chrysler (new). But they are here in our country. Why don’t we have plants For American owned cars & trucks n those Countries! Just a thought!!! We as Unions & Union People Will always believe. And The non-union will always believe in their beliefs. What ever floats your/our boats!! That why we live in AMERICA!
Phil

Ahhh, I love so much listening to the same rhetoric that the union folks put forth. Good stuff.

In general my favorites are the living in the past. They keep talking about things the unions did 20 or 30 years ago that are not even relevant now (thanks to the unions). But I really love the whole “nobody held a gun to the companies head”. Good one. What do you think strikes are? The only reason companies agree to these horrible contracts is they want to avoid a shut down. Granted there are many smaller and better run unions then the bigger ones such as the UAW, but some of the stuff companies have agree to (job bank, paying overtime for working LESS than 40 hours, etc) an intelligent person running a company would never agree to. Of course the heads to the unions should know that is bad for the business but they are just concerned about getting as much as they can for themselves.

I always love the comments “the union has made concessions” to make it sound like they are the hero, but they never have a press conference to announce what things they have gotten the company to agree to (job bank, paying overtime for working LESS than 40 hours, etc) by holding that “strike” gun to their head. At least the leaders of some of these unions are smart because they don’t want the general public to know some of the stuff they are doing because they would get ZERO support. My dad is a 30 year union guy and I told him about some of the UAW contracts and he was appalled. He said they used to fight for a 10 cent raise and what the UAW is doing is ABSURD. I say the unions have made their bed…

For all the guys who feel the unions are benefitial, please do the math on it. Most non-union companies pay many of the benefits that the union takes out of your pay. Vacation, insurance, 401K or investments, sick days, etc. When all these things are factored in, there is not a huge disparity in what you are paid. Please do not take what the union tells you, and do the math for yourself.

I am a non-union contractor, who uses many union companies. Just as an example, if I pay my guys $10, I have to bill them out at $25 just to break even on my costs on them. Most of these costs come direct from your check if you look into it. And I used these figures for simple math, I pay my guys more then that.

And to say that union guys are safer or better trained is just silly. OSHA stadards apply to ALL contractors not only union ones. I have also taken a union class or two….. I would certainly not pay for it.

And to say that the non-union company had undocumented or illegal workers… please let me know if you checked their green cards, saw their paychecks, and their SS numbers. There is no way you could know this, and to say so is flat out discrimination. I have 2 “Hispanic” guys who work for me. Both of them are born and raised in the US and are as much American as you or I.

I would think a person needs to look at there work situation, what the union is offering and see if it is a good match. You need to make a informed decision. Joining the union because the union said its a good idea? What else are they going to tell you. Staying out of it because your company says so. What else would they tell you. Both sides only have there own best interests in mind. You come second to any of that. So look openly at the pros and cons of going either way. Personally if you employer is treating you fair do not throw the union into the mix. A employer does not need to be union to treat there employees well.

Mike, I know a lot of employers who treat their workers great and union protection is not needed. Gee! Did I just say that?!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But I also know of many where the employees are treated like low class dirt. The turnover rate is tremendous enough that the companies resort to bussing in out of staters so to speak.
Some of you say we union backers are living in the past, and unions are not needed in this day and age because we have the NLRB and OSHA looking out for us. Those two gov. bodies are only as good as the present admin. in Washington.
If all the unions were to vanish today making all negotiated contracts null and void, I feel safe in saying by the start of the next workweek you’d be picking your butt up off the floor wondering what happened to your wages and bennies you worked so hard for and the non union employers gave freely because they’re so good to work for.
I still believe if the unions go down, the American worker will follow.
This IS my last post to this thread, but I want to thank all of you for keeping this thread so civil and actually friendly. My hat’s off to you guys.

Only 12% of the American workforce is unionized. I think you are overestimating the importance of unions today. I can promise you if all unions went away today most jobs would be exactly the same come Monday. That is part of the union philosophy; scare their employees that the world will come to an end if they don’t keep paying those union dues. Competition is the great equalizer.