Chrysler files for Bankrupcy

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I worked 3rd shift for Caterpillar in Aurora, Ill. right out of high school for one year. I hadn’t been there more than a month when a “union representative” approached me and asked me what I was trying to do here. He told me that I was running my production numbers way too high and it was making it hard on workers on the other shifts and this had to stop. Well needless to say I had to slow down my production to a more “union” average. At one point on some parts I could run a shift production rate in 3 hours!!!! Most rates could be done in 5-6 hours. I worked in the “heat-treat” area of the plant, which is the hardening and tempering area and there was a lot of area where the furnaces were that was “unexplored” by management on 3 shift. These were the areas where you could find the hardcore “union workers” sleeping on cardboard…..but just for a couple of hours. But I’m sure that has gotten better since 1969…….yeah right!!!!

From this you pretty much know what my opinion of unions is . There was a time when unions were necessary in this country but now with all the “PC monitors” in place, they have outgrown there usefulness. But if you want to donate part of your check every week to some leeches…so be it. That’s my $.02…….

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I’ll throw in my nickel as well. Right out of high school, before I took off to college, I worked in a warehouse unloading semis. I worked too fast for the unionized fork lift operators who couldn’t come and pick up my pallets. I was warned, I thought it was a joke, but three days later I was let go. I guess productivity wasn’t held too highly there either. Margret Thatcher once said that unions put business in a choke hold. From my experience, it’s the truth.

What Jim speaks of, happens everyday. It happened to me in 1992, not 1969. I was told to “slow down” because it was an assembly line type job. I was pulling parts faster than painters, welders and machinists could/”would” manufacture. I wasn’t working my azz off, I was just actually working. The best was the motto some of the guys had, “The union works…. so I don’t have to” (I always picture the guy behind the Ford plant, drinking a few Bud’s at lunch) Guess what ? The company moved from Willmar, MN to Jackson, MN and ditched the union in the process…. they are still in business. Your right, the union has to fight for your job… that and your dues !!!! No matter how big of a flunky the worker is, they (the Teamsters) would fight to the death, I know, I have been there.

big G

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My dues were 2 hours pay per month. Standard UAW dues. The math proves it was well worth it. Especially in retiremnet.

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I did not ask about the dues, I asked who paid for your benefits. If you look, they come right off the top of your check. It is just direct deposit, nothing more, nothing less, and then you pay union dues. Your insurance, same thing. Not very difficult, but you are given the convienence of them doing it for you.

I am done now. Good Luck

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Imported products is what is killing this country. Buy american and stay away from Walmart

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So if you buy GM, Ford, Chrysler, lets expand that: Dell, 3M products, Gander Mtn, Cabelas, you are buying american correct? I am pretty sure majority of all piece parts are made elsewhere and stamped and branded with the companies name…just because it’s an American company does not mean you are “buying” american

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Old fart ramblings ahead:
My Dad started in the coal mines at the ripe old age of 11. He told stories of going in on weekends on his own time to prepare the coal so he could get more out come Monday. He was disabled at the ripe old age of 45 due to Black Lung. He was a union man for life because if they hadn’t came in when they did he wouldn’t have made 45 at all. Unions were a crucial part of our history in that they protected the masses from an unbalanced situation where the owners had all the power. Like most things in life, power corrupts and unlimited power unlimitly corrupts! Unions got out of control and caused a lot of negative effects because there were people in power who had no idea what to do. I have never worked in a union job in my life but I am smart enough to realize that the wages I make are affected by what unions do. My company benchmarks our wages and the companies that pay their employees well are the union shops. If all unions went away I am afraid we would see a return to days of old. Do any of you really believe that companies would pay better than they had to out of the goodness of their hearts? It is a scary time in the history of our country right now and I pray the situation works itself out. Unions are part of the problem but I don’t think the answer is the dismantling of all unions. There has to be a middle ground and I sure hope someone finds it soon.

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I like what you say, and there is definetly truth to it. I was just wondering, don’t they have labor laws these days? Unions aside, I was just wondering if they would be revoked as well? I know that again the unions were integral at getting workers’ rights, but I don’t think we’ll ever see ten year olds running lathes and pouring dies in a factory.

Wow, it is amazing hearing the same ole stuff coming out of the pro-union side. I feel like I am sitting in my parent living room listening to my dad! Union propaganda. One thing you can say about union guys is they are passionate about their message. Somehow they are able to convince everybody that their job is more important than anybody else’s. Every argument they give is pretty much illogical at this point in time, but I will let it go. Not worth arguing about. I just hope anybody here that falls under the auto industry umbrella, including the union guys, are able to keep their job through this and the GM collapse.

Steve, probably not in this country, but you do have it now in China and other countries around the world.

And your labor laws are only as good as the current administration in DC. As long as big buisness can line the pockets of law makers, the unions will have to do the same. And you are right Mr. Curtis. Same old argument. Don’t know why I let myself get pulled into the crap pot this always becomes.

Aside from this thread, I’ll bet you’re all pretty darn good people.

Have a good one.

Did you call me pretty Herb???

Boy, am I going to get hammered here.
IMHO,
First off, I like unions and they have a place at protecting workers.
But, that being said, this legacy stuff and benefits packages have to stop. The only thing a company should be “required” of offer is workcomp and disability insurance-in case you are hurt at work you are covered.
But, sick pay, vacation pay, comp. time, health insurance, retirement packages—-it all costs money. Pay the workers a little more and let them take care of their own “benefit packages” as they see fit. If someone wants good insurance, let them go out and shop around and purchase it themselves—healthcare costs will go down because it would be more “consumer driven”–currently it is not and no one personally feels responsible for their bills; i.e.:”my insurance was supposed to pay for that!”.
Once again, it comes down to personal responsibility-which this country no longer has. If you “allow and expect” on systems to take care of you,your freedoms of choice are taken away-as they should. If some other entity is footing the bill, they should have the say in the matter and you are giving them permission to write the rules (and your freedom of choice)-of which you are expected to abide by. And, to make matters worse-these rules do not have to be good rules-they can suck and take advantage of you! Example, if you go and get a house loan, the bank gives you the money and a whole list of rules to follow, sets the interest and tells you essentially “how it’s going to be”. Now, if you have the money and go buy a house in cash, now you get some say in how to write the rules and “how it’s going to be”.
Our freedoms are gone and now the country is suffering from “poor me” syndrome.
Only thing that should be “bullet proof” is the social security system, as most everyone in the country will be reliant on it in one fashion or another.
Currently, when I hear that someone makes 60 dollars per hour for placing a sticker on a windshield due to her union wages, heck my 6 year old daughter could learn to do that in approx. 1.5 minutes.

And as said in an earlier post, it is not the first time I have heard the comment of “don’t work so fast, you’ll make the others look bad”.
This country needs unions, but they have to step up to the plate and fix the ills they have caused-this snowball has rolled way too far down the hill.
Hard work and self responsibility leads to freedom-reliance on systems to take care of you leads to communism. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

My 2 cents, and yes, my wife was a union president.

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Steve, probably not in this country, but you do have it now in China and other countries around the world.
And your labor laws are only as good as the current administration in DC. As long as big buisness can line the pockets of law makers, the unions will have to do the same. And you are right Mr. Curtis. Same old argument. Don’t know why I let myself get pulled into the crap pot this always becomes.
Aside from this thread, I’ll bet you’re all pretty darn good people.
Have a good one.

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Herb, you seem like a darn good person as well!! We should talk about fishing, that way we stay friends longer:)

Union logic is funny.

Bob can make a sandwich for $1.5 and charge me $2.00
Union Bob can make a sandwich for $1.75 and charge me $2.25.

100 years ago, you couldnt pack up your car and move. You didnt have a variety of different employers available for each worker. You didnt have OSHA and other safety checks in place. You didnt have a social safety net for unemployed. We have all those today.

I just want my $2 sandwich.

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Imported products is what is killing this country. Buy american and stay away from Walmart

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This argument confuses me. If I by dish soap, a Hallmark card or a case of motor oil at Walmart how does this differ from buying them at Target, Pamida, Kroger or a Meijer store? Every product in a Walmart store is not from China and Bentonville, AR is a long way from Beijing.

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Union logic is funny.

Bob can make a sandwich for $1.5 and charge me $2.00
Union Bob can make a sandwich for $1.75 and charge me $2.25.

100 years ago, you couldnt pack up your car and move. You didnt have a variety of different employers available for each worker. You didnt have OSHA and other safety checks in place. You didnt have a social safety net for unemployed. We have all those today.

I just want my $2 sandwich.

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But Dave, you should be willing to sacrifice that .25 to show your support for union Bob. What is wrong with you?

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Bob can make a sandwich for $1.5 and charge me $2.00
Union Bob can make a sandwich for $1.75 and charge me $2.25.

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I would NEVER sell a sandwich

If BurBob can brew a keg of beer and sell it for……

So were starting a list of things I wouldn’t sell

As to the Lamprey analogy, there is a good editorial in the WSJ today regarding pending UAW ownership of Chrysler and GM. I quote…

“Having burdened the Detroit companies for decades with restrictive work rules, enormous health care obligations and generous retirement benefits, the UAW will now end up controlling two of them. Specifically, the UAW will own 55% of Chrysler and 39% of GM, where only the government will have a larger ownership interest.

Whether this outcome is perversity or poetic justice, the UAW will finally have a stake in the survival and prosperity of GM and Chrysler.

Whether the union’s rank and file will recognize its interest in the companies and act accordingly is another matter. Consider one of the terms of Chrysler’s pending deal with the union is that workers won’t receive overtime pay until they work more than 40 hours in a given week. Huh?? Wasn’t it always that way? well, no. It turns out that often the union negotiated production quotas in local plant contracts that workers could fill in 5 or 6 hours a day- after which any work you did was considered overtime. Now you understand one key reason why Detroit has arrived at this happy juncture.

By 1992 GM reported it was paying an average health care related tab for employees, retirees and dependents of $9,500 per year. Costs ballooned from there. Not until 2005 did the UAW agree to pay modest monthly premiums and deductables for doctor vists that almost all Americans-including GM’s white collar workers-had been paynig for years.”

I’m not against unions, not really for them either. In my experience when a union employee brings up their health benefits along with what they pay, it amazes me to no end how disconnected they are with what is going on in other work places. The Dr. co-pays, deductibles, and premiums which come out of their check. Once I inform them of the real world they kind of quit complaining about $10 Dr. co-pays and $200 medical deductibles and a whopping $15 being deducted from their paycheck.

I don’t know squat about unions, but are some more responsible than others. Is the UAW the really bad apple?

Speaking of unions, there was an interesting show on TPT about the history of the iron range and how the Finns were the radical thinkers and the Swedes and Norwegians were not found of the Finns. I thought that was interesting. Anyways, the big companies out east that owned the mines and were awful in the treatment of the workers. The companies would may the miners pay for the dynamite and candles that were used to mine. Miners were also not paid while they would lay rail track for the mining cars or while they were building the timber frame work within the mines. They only got payed while they were actually mining ore.

The mines also owned the stores that sold goods and often owned the shacks that the men rented to live in.

In their case, I think the union was a great idea and deemed necessary.

The companies also hired spies to live and work among the miners to weed out union organizers. Very interesting program, especially for someone that grew up elsewhere, like myself.

unions……..Just as bad as politics.

No different than the liberal vs the conservative, you have pro and anti union.

Those that believe in the union or do not believe in the union are completely brainwashed, just like how people have been brainwashed that republican is better than democrat. The politician will only tell you what you want to hear to get your vote. So does the union steward.

Labor laws in place today both state/fed are in place to eliminate the need for unions……..except the government job requires unions, as well as teachers, because their is no measurement on performance, it is a job saftey net!

As far as work comp, unemployment, those are not “Union”, those are state laws.

Mandatory OT is allowed via state laws……are you stating that a union can supercede state regulation?

The only place I see benefit for unions is job safety……..which again, is also regulated by STATE/FED laws!……..

For those that are pro-union……or are union…….Go read all the state/fed labor/OSHA laws……And tell me what your union is doing for you that is better than the government regulations?

“As to the Lamprey analogy, there is a good editorial in the WSJ today regarding pending UAW ownership of Chrysler and GM. I quote…

“Having burdened the Detroit companies for decades with restrictive work rules, enormous health care obligations and generous retirement benefits, the UAW will now end up controlling two of them. Specifically, the UAW will own 55% of Chrysler and 39% of GM, where only the government will have a larger ownership interest.

Whether this outcome is perversity or poetic justice, the UAW will finally have a stake in the survival and prosperity of GM and Chrysler.

End copy and paste…..

I don’t know what happens when one lamprey attaches to another… hopefully they only “feed” until they are satisfied…. & not until the “host” dies….

big G

I will never forget in 1998 when GM went on strike. If I recall correctly, and on other occasions, GM warned the union that the union demands would bankrupt the company if changes were not made. Union never budged, and the execs were forced to pass the higher costs on to the consumers. It is my belief, that the cars and trucks became increasingly unaffordable as a result of this. I worked with the Steel Workers for several years and have seen both sides of the Union and Non-Union, and I simply find it hard to feel upset as this has been in the making for a long time and should come as no suprise.

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Did you call me pretty Herb???

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OMG Kooty, add some gas to the fire….LMAO

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Damned unions will be the ruin of this country.
Give me back the day when you had mandatory 14 hour work day with only one break of 15 minutes, 6 days per week, no overtime pay, no vacations, getting fired if you get hurt and can’t work, no unemployment insurance when laid off or fired, no workman’s comp.
Whether you’re a member or not, somewhere in the past a union negotiator made life better for all of us. Those monkeybutts!
Oh, by the way, I believe it was my union negotiated wages and vacation time that allowed my to book a few guided fishing trips.

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I’ve been in the work force for 30 years now and have never worked for a union. But yet I have never had any of the working conditions as described above. I guess I was just really lucky. I even managed to go for several guided fishing trips along the way. I guess I must have been really really lucky!!!!! All the non – unionized company’s that I’ve worked for are all still in business. I wish I could say the same for a lot of the Union business’s that some of my friends and Family have worked for. Unlike some of the union workers on here. All of my friends and family that have worked for unions in the past would never do so again. When it becomes the unions that are running the company instead of the managers and owners it’s not good. That is why if the unions want to buy the failing auto company’s let them. The same thing will just happen again only faster next time. My guess is once the union’s actually owns the company’s the workers treatment will not be so great. Just my $.02 worth

DocFrigo what a great post! I think you hit it right on the head. We have become a nation of finger pointers rather than accept responsibilty. The JOBS BANK for instance; be off for 5-6 months and STILL collect 95% of your pay? How many people on this site that have been laid off would like to have that? Im positive Unions were a necessity in days gone by, but at less than 17% of the American work force being represented today, time has passed them and their backward thinking by.

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Chrysler just filed Chapter 11.

GM may follow.

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I say let them fail.

We all fail at some point.

Failure tends to teach us life lessons.

Failure makes us stronger and more experienced.

Other companies will take over the voids left by companies who don’t make it.

It might hurt short term but in the long run it will make us stronger.

Let capitalism run its course.

Our president can spend money faster than all the woman in the US combined.

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President Obama just announced that Chrysler, the smallest of Detroit’s Big Three carmakers, will declare bankruptcy. It’s not as bad as it sounds. Chrysler will enter Chapter 11, which means that the company—famously bailed out once before in the 1970s—won’t face liquidation and Michigan won’t confront an unemployment cataclysm. Plus, the saga of Chrysler’s alliance with Fiat won’t merely continue, it will get even better for CEO Sergio Marchionne, as the government now plans to provide an additional $2 billion to help Chrysler make it through the restructuring process. Fiat isn’t bringing any money to the table, so instead of essentially being paid $6 billion to partner with Chrysler, it’ll now be getting $8 billion. Marchionne is now within a few months of becoming the next Carlos Ghosn, a global auto industry superstar.

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source:
http://www.reuters.com/article/bigMoney/idUS45187944820090430

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Chrysler just filed Chapter 11.

GM may follow.

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I say let them fail.

We all fail at some point.

Failure tends to teach us life lessons.

Failure makes us stronger and more experienced.

Other companies will take over the voids left by companies who don’t make it.

It might hurt short term but in the long run it will make us stronger.

Let capitalism run its course.

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AMEN!!! Lassez faire!!!

“No one should be confused about what a bankruptcy process means,” Obama said. “This is not a sign of weakness but rather one more step on a clearly chartered path to Chrysler’s revival.”

So if this is a “good” thing then WHY did “we” give them all that money? Was it to delay their recovery time?

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Our president can spend money faster than all the woman in the US combined.

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I’m thankful everyday when I read the newspaper and President Obama is only talking in billions and not in trillions. Pretty scary stuff.