DNR Abuse Stories

Personally, all my dealings with COs have been fine. Other than checking for licenses and maybe asking to see any fish I’ve caught they have never pushed the envelope of my right to unreasonable search and seizure.

That being said I would have a problem if I didn’t keep any fish and they still wanted to search coolers, livewells, etc. I would want to know why that would be neccessary.

People sure dont read before they post.
for one, it is legal for minors to drink when accompanied by an adult legal guardian ( in Wisconsin)
I have the position that if they are old enough to die for this country, they can sure as hell have a beer with thier fish fry. Especially in the middle of the woods, in Northern WI. For crissakes, what do you do on a guys weekend out, have them play with Barbie Dolls? One is enlisted in the National guard!!!
As posted earlier, they were NOT drinking in my absensce, even as shown on the video tape, in fact, they hadent drank for a few hours before I made the expensive mistake of leaving the campsite to use the Shitter, and stopped at a campsite along the way back. Conversation was good, so I stayed awhile. Little did I know that a sting was under way, one of MANY carried out in the same manner as this for all of you who know so much about the WISCONSIN DNR
Long Story short, before a judge, in court, $1500 later, it was dismissed. No illegal activety took place, in fact the judge wondered why they initiated contact. I was hoping to discuss these type of contacts with competent people who might have had the same experience. Apparently, those people do not at this time occupy these forums.
Instead, I see a bunch of reactionary people who just fire from the hip, after reading the first 3 sentences of a long and complicated issue. I get the mental image of someone with thier pants down to thier knees submitting to a body cavity check, because they like the Warden, and look forward to such activety, as long as it makes them feel good!!
Ya think its ok to have to spend $1500 to defend yourself from something that should have never happened?

This activety mirrors at least 4 other similiar bust’s that the Rangers did. What they all have in common so far is that during a routine patrol, the Rangers spotted “YOUNG PEOPLE” In thier own words, in the incident report, they admitted to immedialty parking the squad and setting up survelience based on the age of the campers. A persons age is hardly probable cause to start spying on people with infra red cameras.
and by the way, I was never charged with anything. I am not disgruntled because I got caught for doing something wrong. You people are defending a class of LE that is clearly out of control. You do so just because you did not have (yet) a negative experience. I would think the reason for that is that you are submissive, and will consent ( to just about anything) I think another reason that I know of so many people who have been hasseled is because of class.
What I do not have in common with those support Jack Boot thug police tactics is that, for one, I dont have a $60,000 “fishing boat” I dont wear a uniform while on the water, with badges of corporate sponsors all over it. I do not use our Natural Resources to generate revenue, or for competative purposes.
I paddle a simple Kayak, not required to be registered, and am rarely fishing from it. Hence, no need to approach me, ask for ID, and go into a thourough background check to make sure that while paddling in Northern Wisconsin, I am not wanted for over due library books!!!
And If I was, thank god they are just doing thier job. Yep, another $1000 of taxpayer money was spent today to apprehend a kayaker who had overdue library books. Sign them heros up for more Homeland security funding!!! They need more rubber gloves f0r people like you!!!
And a reference to “underage drinking” and serving country. It is sad that the cemeteries are full of veterans who died for our freedom, in wars past and present, and yet so many of you are willing to give up that freedom. You all stand so united on the second amendment, yet you turn a blind eye to the rest of the Bill of Rights!!!

Personally, all my dealings with COs have been fine.

Now if your talking about how the DNR has mis-used our Tax dollars in the past thats a whole another story…

Hey, where’s the hot bite at?
I just want to know who really cares about this guys problem?
This is where we come for GOOD info, right?
C.O.’S around the country have a huge job and responsibility for proteceting our sportsmen’s laws and rights! Thats why we pay $$ for hunting/fishing.
Going out on the Croix tomorrow morning for some slabs!!

I am guessing I am excluded from your response, as I simply said, I would have my day in court (which you did) and that I have never experienced anything as zealous as that. I then went on to say, I don’t see how one can condemn a whole organization for a couples actions… BTW, I enlisted in the US Army when I was 17 and dad let me sip a few beers before I was 21.

big G

Sounds to me like you should never have let your kids drink and then left them alone at night in a park. Seems pretty irresponsible if you ask me. My dad let me have some beers in the house and in the back yard before I was 21 but he didn’t let me leave the property after I had had the beers and he definitely stuck around where he could see me. In my opinion the blame is yours. Now get over it!

And where are the fish biting?! My ice is hosed unless we get some cold weather and fast. It is way too early for the ice to be falling apart.

I think I have a clear grasp of what happened.

LE drives by, sees people who he deems underage, observes these people drinking, checks them and they are underage, Issues ticket, you have your day in court, judge deems it was a legal situation and you all go free.

WOW, isn’t Amercica great Innocent before proven guilty. You know you also had the right to have a court appointed attorney so you would not have the $1,500 lawyer fees.

I myself once got an underage consumption (I know big shock ) I paid my fee, did not reoffend, and it was expunged from my record within a year. It was my first beer, but I was drinking it, and was caught. End of story. Maybe the cop was hidding outside my apartment with spyglasses waiting for me to walk out get me, but it didn’t matter, I was caught doing something that was illegal, and I dealt with it.

I do have a problem letting a LE person search me, my boat, car, or home. If they were a dink about it, I would stand my ground and not allow it to happen, but on the other hand, if I treat them nicely, show them my livewell if they ask, wave goodbye when they leave, and maybe even share a soda with them, I will save myself a ton of time on the water, and get back to fishing. That is worth giving up the freedom of my livewell. It would be different if he wanted to search my truck, or home, but a livewell is the line I draw in the sand.

I hope you do not have any additional problems with the law, and you can enjoy your time on the water

treehugger,
why did it ti cost you $1500 to defend yourself?

Thank You Big G, You can see how a subject like this can go into just about any direction.
Suddenly, I am attacked for letting a 19 and 20 y/o have a few beers around the fire.
I have too much time on my hands today, as it is the mud season here ( not enough ice or open water to do anything)
hence, I keep the thread going….
Anyways, having enlisted, can you imagine what this incident did to us?
The kid enlisted, wich was kind of unpopular among my side of the family. ( Attack me now)
Anyways, its one of the Last weekends left before he begins training. The other is enrolled in College.
How do you explain to someone who just signed on the dotted line to run off to some godforsaken country and protect other peoples freedom, when here at home, look what happened?? For crissakes, the kid has 2 beers with dinner, and a few hours later, his status is in jeopordy. His whole future went up in smoke, the same with the other one. Its hard as hell to get into a good college, and heaven forbid, if you have any infractions on your record, they use that to cull the herd. Two peoples lifes went up in smoke for having a beer earlier, and then later being approached and blamed for a pile of 2 day old beer cans from 2 previous nights of camping.
Innoceant until proven otherwise? It took 3 round trips of 280 miles each to make various court appearances, to spend less than 15 minutes each to talk to a DA. That interferes with Guard Duty, College studies, and work schedules.
That on top of the lingering psychological effects.
That Campground/campsite was full of memories. I had been taking them Boy’s, and thier friends there for years. Some of the best times in our lives has been spent there.
Now everyone in our group hates it. Nobody has any desire to go back there, or to that entire area, which is LOADED with outdoor recreation.
When I read ( and investigated) the stories of others within that same Ranger district, I can no longer feel comfortable camping there.
We found, through court proceedings, that they routinely use high tech survelience on law biding citizens.
In one case, a warning of a Bear nearby was probable cause to enter a campsite, and proceed with an investigation into unrelated allegations of illegal activety.
Hence, the need to re-iterate what probable cause really means.
As it stands, a bear in the woods is grounds to make contact, even with a camera.
There will always be bears in the woods!!!
Unless stopped, they can always barge into a campsite , shine a light on a pile of cans, allege that you smell of beer, and make an arrest. Even when they admitted they never saw them drink!!
Inexscusable, regardless of any of these other peoples lovely encounters with LE!!!

It must be nice to know the state govt. is actually doing what is supposed to. Here in Illinois, governors act like your dnr.

Against all better judgement here I go…

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I paddle a simple Kayak, not required to be registered, and am rarely fishing from it. Hence, no need to approach me, ask for ID, and go into a thourough background check to make sure that while paddling in Northern Wisconsin

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Ok so YOU own a kayak and By law do not need to register. that’s fine.

YOU choose to rarely fish from it Also fine what you do with your Kayak is up to you.

But here is where I’m confused. HOW THE Do they know they know that you rarely fish from it? Why should the fact that you choose to rarely fish from your kayak make it ANY different from anyone else who happens to be on the water. I’f I’m out in my parents Ski boat just sitting in the lake enjoying the summer day ( which I do about twice a year) I feel they have every right to stop in and check on me.
A) they don’t know how often I do this so they can’t be held responsible for the fact that I chose to do it the same day they happen to be on the lake.
B) How is the fact that I do it about twice a year different than if I do it 2 times a week? Point is I’m still doing it right?
C) ultimatley if Criminals had a concense and turned them selfs in We wouldn’t need the LE. Problem is they aren. So When a CO pulls up to the boat and that boat (FOR EXAMPLE) Happens to be 20 crappies,lets say, over the limit. Are these people who are knowingly breaking the law going to tell the CO that they are over the limit? NO! So how is it then that you propose that it’s determined if searches need be done, since searching every one isn’t high on your list?

Ok I’m done with this.I spent more time on this than I ever intended or even cared too, and I played right into the game.

Is it Saturday yet? I have fishing to do.

Bottom line here is that the laws the law! Don’t really care that he was headed for Iraq or not. Did he break the law. YES! As his parent maybe your butt should have been next to his instead of a couple camps away. Your fault dude. He broke the law! And thats the LE’s fault how??? RR

Slack, you asked why the legal fees?
For one, they wore us down. The 3 trips we made were a few of many reguired. It was interfereing with everything at home, so we gave up and had a lawyer do it.
For the sake of clarity, there were other charges made AFTER the Rangers illegally made first contact. Those charges were also dismissed, but had to be challeneged in court.
You can get a court appointed attourney ( public defender) who is usually incompetent. They will usually try to get you to settle to a lesser charge. Also, you have to make like under $25k a year or something like that to qualify.
How do you tell someone they should plead guilty to a lesser charge of something they didnt do?
And for others: I didnt leave the “park” or the”children” unattended. At 19 and 20 yrs old we left the babysitter at home.
I was a couple of thousand feet away, in another loop of the same campground. I saw all the squads go by, never dawned on me what was going on until they started throwing people around, and the dogs went nuts
For those that are remotely interested: This reveals a whole system that goes on daily. They charge you with something, and make it a mandatory appearance for the defendant, even to plead guilty or not guilty, something you can usually do by mail. Then, contrary to the norm, they schedule a “pretrial”. This is nothing but a practice run for the DA, to see what kind of case he has. Totally unfair, but mandatory appearance also> Then, there is supposed to be the trial, but nope, the DA calls a conference…again, mandatory appearance. 15 mnts of posturing, then an offer is made to take a lesser charge. Nope, not doin it, I want a trial, so 2 months pass, then, the DA calls another conference….and so it goes. They clearly try and wear you down
They did not have a case, and they knew it. The DA was trying to get the kids to incriminate themselves. Why? because during the arrest, once the cuffs came out, they refused to cooperate. They did not incriminate themselves that night, so the DA tried to get them to admit to false statements made by DNR staff after the fact, and not on the report.
If the tables were turned, I would not be able to admit any incidents in court unless they were on the incident report. There were many incidents of that nature, that were not cited, such as the use of the canine units.
Through a special consultation between a hired lawyer and the DA, it was determined that the incident report was inaccurate. If I had not gotten the lawyer, I would have never gotten that far. Any attempts by us to contact the SAME DA, were refused by that office.
See how they work?
It all costs time and money.
And when you look back at what they accomplished, or try to, its a total waste of taxpayer money and time.
That night, 3 Rangers had to log 3 hours of OT. The County Sherrif Canine Unit ( totally unecessary) was used and billed ( to us). Then, 3 DNR Trucks making a Round Trip to Eagle River ( 60 miles each)….for what?

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Bottom line here is that the laws the law! Don’t really care that he was headed for Iraq or not. Did he break the law. YES! As his parent maybe your butt should have been next to his instead of a couple camps away. Your fault dude. He broke the law! And thats the LE’s fault how??? RR

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From what I have read, though, no laws were broken? A parent in WI can let his 20yr old drink in his presence. The kids were done drinking and the parent left……

Unless I mis-read the posts…it does not appear that laws were violated, hence the dismissal.

Tim

Im following you treehugger, but I just want to clarify some things.

Why were dogs brought in?
Was anyone resisting arrest?
Did your son’s have to take breathalizers?
How long were you gone?
Was there anything else found on your person besides alcohol that would increase the risk to these officers?

To me sounds like just a bad case of timing and some over aggressive patrol, but of course we are only getting one side of the story.

And, I laugh at those who tell you that its irresponsible to leave your kids of that age alone while you walk to the bathroom and get caught up in some idle chit chat on the way back. I’d feel bad if some of these clowns posting here were on a jury of my peers. I never realized that everyone posting on here waited til they were 21 to have alcohol.

The only problem I see is that if they were drinking while you were gone and did something else to attract attention to themselves?

Lighten up Francis
just kidding! I couldn’t resist.

I went to basic training while I was 17 and I could…and did drink on base! Even though the drinking age was 18 down there at the time. WI is a way more open on minor drinking than MN so it surprises they hassled you. Sounds like something you’d here in MN.

fire extinguishers…it must be a WI thing? I was checked on the Croix down by the Kinni by the red haired WI. guy twice in one hour! The second time he asked to see my fire ext. Even though it had a meter (and it was green) he took the pin out and put it in a different spot and pulled the trigger to test it WTF! I think he was trying to find something wrong but couldn’t??? I didn’t hang around for his 3rd round I had enough.

Seems like you get some CO’s that are nice and some that aren’t just like co-workers. It seems like most people in LE are type A personalities and I can see how that rubs some people the wrong way.

Can you elaborate on how there lives went up in smoke?

Ferny.

wow, read on ignorant…laws were not broken, or even the appearance was not there. They were NOT drinking, without my presence…END OF THAT part, ok? Thanks for the parenting skill sermon, I already defended that issue.
And the Kayak….ever been in one?
Any fishing gear would HAVE to be visible. A guy clipping along at just under wake with both hands on the paddle is clearly NOT fishing. The life jacket is on, in plain view, hence NO NEED for contact. No further jurisdiction here, unless you want to chat, which I choose not to. Sure, they CAN, but does mean they SHOULD? Get the 2 clear!!!

And thanks for the example of sitting on a boat on a summer day.
In July, of ’08 at least 5 pontoon boats are tied together out on very large Lake Minocqoa.

An occupant of ONE of the boats is smoking pot. The DNR observes this from almost a half mile away, again, with a high tech camera. The person is filmed in the act. After 45 minutes of filming everyone, they make contact. EVERYBODIES boats and personal belongings are searched, not just the boat who’s occupant was violating ( a non fish and game law) One of the unrelated boaters ( who didnt even know the offender) was taken to shore to have his vehicle searched on unrelated allegations.
During THAT court proceeding, it was accidentally revealed just how many boaters they had filmed that day!!!!
The Town Of Minocqoa wanted a camera like that, but the Townspeople thought they would abuse it, so they denied funding for such things. The DNR , on the other hand, asks for such technology, for “fish and Game violators”, yet they use it to film Bikini clad boaters, or people sitting around a campfire.
Hence, the “general brush” used to paint the DEPT ( Wisconsins) as a whole, and not the actions of a few sloppy officers. This is built in to the mentality, and admitted by management. It is a “command and controll” issue, as stated by Scott Hasstert who left the DNR as its Secretary, because of such behavior
some of you might be tired of this subject, nobdy is forcing you to follow it. I do respect other peoples experiences, as positive. The point is not to try and change someones opinion. The last few posts are responses to ignorance, and would not be necessary. You try and have an intelligent conversation, and someone either attacks your grammer and sentence structure, or takes something totally out of context, or thier realm of knowledge, and runs with it as if it was fact!!!

Sounds to me you had a bad experience with some rangers and you are still quite bitter. You need to thank god you are all still alive, no one got hurt, it cost you some money but apparently that is okay since you have a computer and can type on it, you were educated enough to have a job, thank someone for that as well, and everything now is fine. Emotional scarring? Sounds like you just need to find a different rangers jurisdiction. Everything will be fine, do you have the right to be mad? maybe, but don’t make it sound like it is everyone elses fault except your own or your boys. Just get over it, crappy stuff in life happens all the time to all sortts of people, you can choose to leave it in the past and move on, or you can worry about for years and let it wreck your life.
I would think you could move on!

I might suggest that if you had presented your story to us and then asked for our opinions on the questions of probable cause, you would have had much better reponses from this group, myself included. While the subject is a heated one for you, you need to spell it out to others in a calmmer, unbiased manner so that people can draw their own conclusions and then share them with you.

I also might suggest that this forum isn’t the best place to turn to to get this precieved probable cause problem addressed. Start with the Supervisors of those LE’s that you feel have violated you. If you don’t like the response you get from them, move up the ladder until someone either agrees to look into it, or convences you that nothing is going to be done about it and let it go. Another course of action would be to contact the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). This is exactly the type of thing they like to deal with.

Good Luck, and thank you for trying to instill into your kids the joys and values of the outdoors. More parents need to do the same.

ok. I have spent a while trying to figure out what was typed on posts and see that I had to reprint twice as there were edits on here (additions after original post) and such. It seems like he got his “fishing” answers. here are my quesitons in regards to your posts treehugger.

1.) CO’s became warden’s, then became rangers and then became law enforcement. to me when you say L/E to me that means all law enforcement, police, MP’s, CO’s,warden’s etc…..

2.)how does “they were busted for consumption when I was not there” in one post change to “a few beers before supper and a few later and i was only 1000 feet away” (if you are that far away ice fishing would you complain about that ticket?) plus a 3 day pile of cans? were you on video leaving the site? if not how did they know you were there? How long did they watch them?

3.) You state “I don’t drive 4 hours and portage a mile through brush to a “hidden lake” to have a conversation with a armed warden, but that turns into a “campsite” that squad cars go driving down a road and a k-9 unit is there.

Tree hugger I am trying to follow the story and it looks like your “trolling expedition” worked, but don’t you think if you would have put all that up front you would have got a truer response from the site and possibly even some support from posters here that what happend was bad?

Instead you gave enough for us to defend L/E and go after you for leaving the kids and then expand on the issue later. I am not argueing, but it is tough to support someones view point when they only give enough to get the response they are looking for.

I think if you would have posted the whole story and not just parts as you went along you would have had a better response.

that was a lot of reading time for my nap now.

Broncs

Treehugger

What is your point or desired outcome with this thread?

You didn’t find people that shared your opinions of LE so you posted your story about your experience. Now you’re trying to defend your experience as an example of overzealous law enforcement. OK. So what? You had your day in court, you were vindicated. I’m glad the court system worked for you and your sons so the issue could be resolved.

But we still haven’t experienced what you’re talking about.

Even if we were to all suddenly buy into the idea that two officers on patrol spot a couple kids doing absolutely nothing around a campfire and decide to set up high dollar surveillance equipment to catch them doing… absolutely nothing. And then, after the surveillance reveals… nothing… they move in for the bust. Isn’t that just a single example of LE gone wrong and a far cry from a reason to indict an entire branch of law enforecement?

However, that’s besides the point. You started this looking for people that had bad experiences with COs and LEs on a level that would justify a re-write of enforcement policy and you didn’t find anyone. Not that you couldn’t. Or won’t. I’m sure there’s people out there with stories for you. But I will contend that those instances are very, very isolated.

The part that puzzles me is it seems like you’re trying to convince us all of something that I don’t quite understand (yet, but I’m trying) by sharing a story of what happened to you and your sons? Although we can be sympathetic to your plight… I just don’t understand your end game here. If you want people to agree with you and tell you that LE was wrong I think you got that when the charges were dropped.

Bomber, They remained silent once the cuffs came out. One resisted verbally, but later shut up. Remaining silent, in the eyes of these guys,( LE) was considered obstruction They refused to consent to a search of a vehicle that did not belong to them. Thus, the dogs were brought in. They also found a “weapon”. A camp hatchet, and a 4″ knife, in its sheath, both out of reach. At that time, they had all the cause they needed to do anything they wanted. I was gone no longer than an hour and half. In that time, I came back once to get a beer, and return to the other campsite. The boys were just sitting around cooking something on a stick, which was later described as “suspicious activety”
They got ruff with me because I asked what initiated contact in the first place. They said it was because of registration. ( Rangers do not register, the resident host does, and I had already made contact with him) When I tried to explain this, they began ordering me around, where to stand, not to move, etc. I informed them that I was the registrar of the campsite, and any dealing with that issue should be taken up with me, in other words, if I am registered, your business is done here. That is when they became beligerent. I was later told by the lawyer that is exactly what you should do. be polite, but firm, and do not provoke. If they initiated contact to investigate why the site did not have a tag, that is where it should have ended. Instead, they said that during a routine driveby, they saw the site did not have a tag ( it didnt 2 days before that either) so they decided to investigate ( again, they dont register, and its not uncommon for a site not to be registered until the following day. Upon approaching the site, they noticed “two young males”, one doing “suspicious activety” so they decided to set up survelience.
The suspicious activety, and “weapons” are things that can be found in any campsite!!!
Hence, the jist of this whole subject!!!! A bear shits in the woods, and they need to run around and tell everyone, while doing that, they allege illegal activety ( observed, while telling of lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my), then, you have to jump through hoops to get it resolved.
Its also amazing, that this was in the middle of nowhere, yet within a very short time, a Canine was there, with 2 other DNR Squads. We later find out, its business as Usual for these Rangers. Just another Saterday night protecting citizens from themselves
Whhops, forgot a juicy one…. Even when it was explained about drinking earlier, they still breathalized them, after the fact. I asked why, and they told me it was to make sure none of them required hospitalization. ( no kidding)
Geeze, last year I fell asleep by the fire. When I woke up, I had a funney taste in my mouth. I wonder if the DNR was there to check on me, to make sure I didnt need hospitalization. My shorts were down and there was a rubber glove nearby, but most of you wouldt have a problem with that, after all, they are here to protect and to serve!!!

Thanks Perch! That’s wonderful. At least someone who invests the time to read this thread up to your post will get something for their time….a good chuckle.

Please…. no more posts. Even if they are funny. I’ll give Treehugger a short window to add the final word and then I’ll lock this one up as it seems to have run its course.

Well, I see Treehugger is no longer in the “who’s online” and has left the site so I’ll lock this one down.