Overharvest of a fishery vs two lines proposal

  • jldii
    Posts: 2294
    #741061

    You guys are taking my point way out of context!!

    I was talking about the “carring capacities” of a lake and how people do not know at what time that line is crossed when we reduce any species below the natural carrying capacities of any body of water thru over harvest, by what ever means. Red was but an example of a lake that had a species population, in this case walleyes, that was reduced below its natural carrying capacities and thusly could not recover on its own. As a result, he lake’s walleye population crashed.

    Re-read my post and please tell me where I was relating 2 line fishing with netting. I DIDN’T! I was only trying to address the point made by Big G about our possible effects on a lake not showing for some time. At what time and at what level does a species get reduced below a lakes natural carrying capabilities?

    Using Red as an example, it is obvious man will not know until it was already too late.

    kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #741062

    I seem to be doing that a lot in this discussion Jack. I understand exactly what your point is. However, given the topic I assumed you meant two lines are going to cause the demise of lakes all across MN just like what happened on Red.

    I think I better head to the garage and get some smart syrum injected into my veins. Have a great night!!

    jldii
    Posts: 2294
    #741075

    Thats cool Kooty, everyone here knows you’re a hot head and like to leave things in peoples boots!!

    Now back to something you’ve related to several times in this thread, 2 lines in other states.

    Aren’t many if not most lakes in S.D. completely stocked and considered “put and take” lakes? The state puts the fish in so the people can take them out. It’s also my understanding that that is also why they do not close the season. There is little if any reproduction so there is no need to protect them.

    Castaway
    Otsego,MN
    Posts: 1573
    #741103

    Most lakes are stocked in MN to.Even some other big ones like Leech and Rainy.I suppose they will have to start stocking ML to after we get 2 lines

    Just want to keep this going

    kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #741235

    Quote:


    Thats cool Kooty, everyone here knows you’re a hot head


    Whoa… Shots fired across the bow.

    Quote:


    and like to leave things in peoples boots!!


    Can’t deny that I guess.

    ggoody
    Mpls MN
    Posts: 2603
    #741239

    Did anybody catch the Outdoor News article by Joe Fellegy?

    I thought he did good job of pointing out the Legislators flaws and the lack of common sense in their reasoning for changing to 2 lines.

    Let the Fellegy bashing begin/continue…..

    kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #741240

    Can you post? I’d like to hear his opinion.

    danno
    Central MN
    Posts: 323
    #741247

    I swear, some people don’t understand that they can cross highway 169 or highway 18 and see that there are other waters in this state and not just Mille Lacs. Shortsighted to say the least.

    If anyone thinks that most of the lakes in MN could exist without stocking you’re sadly mistaken. Holy cow.

    Put the boat on the trailer once in a while….

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #741272

    Quote:


    Put the boat on the trailer once in a while….


    That was funny.

    jldii
    Posts: 2294
    #741316

    Can you post? I’d like to hear his opinion.

    Most of the time, Joe’s columns are copyrighted and can not be had on the outdoornews website. It’s sad, but true.

    timmy
    Posts: 1960
    #741340

    Jack – Good point on carrying capacities, but I think the issue of depleting a fish stock down to a lower threshhold is not a concern with hook/line angling. When populations start getting low, angling pressure starts dwindling. I remember Red Lake immediately prior to the shut down – and there were few anglers out there. It just wasn’t worth the trip. Nobody was stopping there when it was only 45 minutes further to good fishing. The illegal netting up on URL decimated the fish stocks and the recreational angling really slowed quite a while before the lake was shut down.

    Tim

    jldii
    Posts: 2294
    #741756

    I’m glad you understand my point. Thanks!

    It is a serious question to contemplate though. How long had it been that we(mankind) had crossed that threshold before we first noticed something was wrong. It had to be more than a couple years, maybe 5+.

    ggoody
    Mpls MN
    Posts: 2603
    #741802

    Quote:


    Can you post? I’d like to hear his opinion.


    Ok I’ll type 45 minutes for you Kooty!…

    Multiple-lining is really fun, but sink the two line bill.

    Holy invasive specie’s! a 2 line fishing bill has started its annual upstream migration through the rough rapids of Minnesota politics.

    I’m against passage of the bill. But I checked in with Rep Junhke last weekend to get his thinking behind the measure. He calls the bill “Popular” and reminded me that it has gained house approval several times in the past only to sizzle in the Senate- thanks, he said to opposition by the DNR and by Sen. Satveer Chaudhary “DFL-Fridley”, chairmen of the Senate Environment and Natural resources committee.

    Rep. Junhke cited what he considers good reasons for allowing 2 lines. we already have 2 lines for Winter. There’s 2 lines allowed on boarder waters. Wisconsin allows 3 lines in the Summer. Minnesota resorts could compete better with those in Multi-line states. Allowing 2 lines would increase “enjoyment of the sport” attracting more kids to fishing, and “giving the seasoned angler more to do on a slow day.”

    Limits remain the same, regardless how many lines are employed. Junhke suggested a 2 line Tag could lure more dollars to the Game and Fish fund, which needs the money. and he said that “any good fishermen” will tell you that when the fish are really biting only 1 pole is needed.

    Pro support?

    I haven’t studied fishing related tourist economics to know if Minnesota resorts are losing significant bucks because of the states 1 line only Law for open water. There might be this or that narrow angler niche that frumps and grumbles, but how many anglers actually boycott Minnesota waters because a party of 3 can’t fish 6 or 9 lines?

    Some Walleye Pros, used to multiple-line fishing elsewhere, have favored the 2 line bills in the past. They and others point to how doubling the lines would enable offshore crank-bait trollers to work more patterns at the same time trolling boards, long lining, lead core, and down riggers.

    You know, simultaneously matching pre-sentations and depths for and faster learning- and, more prise money. As for money, certain manufacturers and sellers of fishing tackle and accessories surely see some potential for added profit if 2 lining is allowed.

    I think its fishy when some pious angling big-shot tells audiences it’s a sin to freeze a sacred fish, or to give one a away to Aunt Rosie, or to keep more then a skimpy meal. And then Mr. Conservation, or Mr Tight Slot, Mr Protection, turns around and works to increase fishing pressure-embracing every sport-diminishing advantage, blabbing every fishing secret “discovered” and then wanting to shake up Minnesota’s Fishing culture and management establishment with an unnecessary new two line measure.

    Much of the two-line sales pitch is FLUFF. “Other states” and “Boarder waters” are irrelevant (Also, those multi-line laws are mainly OLD, not 21st century.) The Kid-fishing pitch is pure Baloney. So does the notion that anything should be allowed because there is a bag limit in place. That’s ridiculous and shows an ignorance of basic fisheries science, and misconstrues the philosophy behind bag limits. If all anglers, every time out, caught near-limits – and no more – across Minnesota fishing country there’d be a crisis. Hey, if we’d pledge to stay within the limit, and if the bag limit is the ultimate conservation tool, then why not allow any amount of lines and hooks. and what about spears and fish traps? Isn’t the limit the limit?

    The Fun Factor.

    As the two-line debate advances (if it actually goes someplace), expect increasingly far-out arguments by supporters- like the average angler can’t handle two-lines anyway. C’mon. Do they really believe most anglers are too stupid to watch two bobbers or trolling lines? More B.S.: the 2nd line won’t much increase the overall catch. Even more B.S. the 2nd line will only be used if the fishing is slow. Fact: if one line brings good fishing the 2nd line can turn the trip into a genuine circus, a real riot. Contemplate two rods bent at the same time, or a bobber sinking while you’re fighting a fish on the other line. Hey, “Doubles” are fun! And Triples are funner yet!

    Over the several decades I took anglers out for hire, clients had to use my rods, which were rigged for my various approaches. In a sense, customers were my rod holders, my tickets to watching multiple lines and learning by matching different rigging, tackle components, bait charictaristics… you name it. Give me 4 or 5 lines and I’ll get super creative!

    What a Blast!

    Enter reality. Is there a com-pelling reason for turning Minnesota fishing upside down by allowing two lines for all species in open water? There’ll be additional cost to the state. We’d be sending mixed signals in todays conservation age. And there’s no big Grassroots push for change.

    danno
    Central MN
    Posts: 323
    #741803

    He’s right…those multiple line laws in other states ARE old. Michigan is going from two lines to three after updating an EIGHTY year old law.

    Yep, old alright. Time to get with the program MN.

    Other than that, I didn’t see much substance behind the rambling to support staying with one line.

    ggoody
    Mpls MN
    Posts: 2603
    #741816

    3 lines for inland open-water in Michigan? That makes NO sense.

    I could see maybe on the Great Lakes but inland?

    Remind me not to go to Michigan Pier Fishing anytime soon….

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #741833

    Quote:


    how many anglers actually boycott Minnesota waters because a party of 3 can’t fish 6 or 9 lines?


    Maybe not boycott Minnesota waters…but I always recommend out of staters to buy a WI fishing license because of the number of lines and baits that can be used.

    I’m going to guess and fairly accurately, that MN loses 12 licenses per year because of me. I’m just one guide…and that’s not BS.

    Was it mentioned that MN is seeing lower revenues from fishing license sales?

    timmy
    Posts: 1960
    #741848

    Quote:


    I’m glad you understand my point. Thanks!

    It is a serious question to contemplate though. How long had it been that we(mankind) had crossed that threshold before we first noticed something was wrong. It had to be more than a couple years, maybe 5+.


    I would say you probably are pretty close……From my foggy memory, it seems that URL was getting pretty poor a good 5 yrs before they closed it. The angler numbers really started dwindling. The problem, though, was that the illegal gillnetting did not dwindle. I vividly recall the DNR articles and news reports discussing the demise of that fishery. The DNR was adamant that sport angling was NOT a factor in the decline – and that the decline was soley the result of both tribal gillnetting and illegal gillnetting (of which there were incredible reports). This sounds plausible to me – as anglers only hit a small portion of the lake and were restricted to consistent limits for decades – and the fishery was sustained. Increases in the indiscriminate netting (both tribal and illegal) sure seems to coincide with the demise of the fishery……….

    I found it very ironic that the DNR took that stance (blame avoidance?) initially, but upon re-opening of the fishery, they restricted hook and liners to a very tight slot and 2 fish limit. If the hook-n-liners were not a factor in the first place, why would tight restrictions on them be a necessity? Seems like funny business to me. Place the blame entirely on something out of their control initially, but then take a hard stance in the opposite corner when it came time to re-open and regulate the ‘new’ resource. They lost some credibility with me on that one.

    Tim

    kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #741853

    Anything for me right?

    Seriously, thanks for posting. I see little if any substance for reasons not to support two lines. But, like the rest of us, we all are entitled to an opinion.

    The best part is knowing mine is right.

    Fife
    Ramsey, MN
    Posts: 4040
    #741868

    I have been reading this post from the beginning and I enjoy hearing everyone’s opinions.

    I am very much in favor of allowing 2 lines. I will echo alot of the things said earlier for this, but I thought of something I’d like to add as well. I think this will help boost sales of fishing equipment as well. I’m guessing most anglers in MN only have 1 fishing rod, but now they will go out and buy another. For myself when I’ve traveled to bordering states, I stocked up on trolling rods, line counter reels, leadcore, line, and planer boards. I remember the first time I went to Red Wing and attempted to fish 2 lines. I got snagged and broke off 3 or 4 times with my rigging line and lost another 3 or 4 jigs on the line I was casting. On the way home I had to make a couple stops to stock back up on the tackle I lost.

    On a side note: There was a member here who works for a MN senator. If you’re reading this I apologize because I don’t remember your name, but if you have any insight on this or a contact I could send my support to that would be appreciated.

    t-ellis
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts: 1316
    #741893

    Quote:


    Other than that, I didn’t see much substance behind the rambling to support staying with one line.


    Exactly!

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #741906

    Quote:


    On a side note: There was a member here who works for a MN senator. If you’re reading this I apologize because I don’t remember your name, but if you have any insight on this or a contact I could send my support to that would be appreciated.


    The bill has passed the house. You need to contact you state senator. Start here:

    Who is my Senator?

    Once you know who represents you, send them an e-mail. Make sure to include your full name, address and telephone number. Then, pick up the phone and call.

    -J.

    danno
    Central MN
    Posts: 323
    #741930

    It hasn’t passed anything yet.

    You can send your support to all the reps and senators if you wish. Usually it’s good to start with the author of the bill to give him/her your reasons why you’re for/against it. You could also contact those that you know are against a bill as well to give them some insight on the subject that may sway their opinion.

    The author of the bill is going to be the one “carrying” the bill as it moves along and will need the letters of support to help further his/her case on why it should be passed. Rep. Juhnke is the author of this particular bill.

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #741931

    It has passed the house several times. It gets killed in the senate comittee hearings each time it comes up.

    -J.

    danno
    Central MN
    Posts: 323
    #741932

    That is correct but we’re starting from scratch again.

    One of these times it’ll finally sink in.

    Derek Hanson
    Posts: 592
    #741940

    Quote:


    I have been reading this post from the beginning an For myself when I’ve traveled to bordering states, I stocked up on trolling rods, line counter reels, leadcore, line, and planer boards. I remember the first time I went to Red Wing and attempted to fish 2 lines. I got snagged and broke off 3 or 4 times with my rigging line and lost another 3 or 4 jigs on the line I was casting. On the way home I had to make a couple stops to stock back up on the tackle I lost.


    Great, more pollution in our lakes and rivers. Just what we need. As if there isn’t enough broken lines and jigs/lures laying in the lake already. Oh I forgot, it will boost sales! Like the environment is really that important anyway, greed and money is WAY more important. Look at the bright side, at least you will have a better chance at hooking a lost gill net.

    kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #741951

    What are you talking about?? I swear, you can’t see anything outside of Mille Lacs, which you are a self proclaimed expert on.

    Have you ever tossed jigs to a wing dam? How about in flooded trees?

    Please give me your sales pitch on how two rods is now going to hurt the environment more than one??

    Derek Hanson
    Posts: 592
    #741953

    ummmm…….common sense?

    The more lines you use, the more you are going to break lines and lose lures, right? Where do you think all that extra line and junk goes? You think it disappears?

    And for your information I grew up on the Mississippi River and I have a lot of experience fishing rivers. I know how easy it is to get snagged. Adding an extra line is just stupid in this case.

    timmy
    Posts: 1960
    #741955

    A jig head laying on the bottom is not much of a threat to the environment. Nothing is eating a jighead that is wedged in the rocks. They are pretty much inert pieces of rubble……….. The odd loon that eats a fish with a jig in it’s mouth is a different matter altogether and is statistically nothing.

    Baby mallard – you made the point earlier about how horrible it would be for people to C&R way over their limit on walleyes due to hooking mortality…..yet you turn around and post you and you’re partners(brother?? I can’t recall….) musky stories. I seem to recall weekends of 7-8 and more muskies caught and released. The way I see it, that is the same as realeasing 7-8 or more limits of walleyes…..with your proclaimed “20%” mortality numbers for all fish in warm water, you seem to be a bigger threat than most to our fisheries……..

    Tim

    ggoody
    Mpls MN
    Posts: 2603
    #741959

    Quote:


    Quote:


    Other than that, I didn’t see much substance behind the rambling to support staying with one line.


    Exactly!


    Maybe I missed it but can you guys show US any substance or reasoning for switching to two lines other then the Fluff that has been posted above…

    Derek Hanson
    Posts: 592
    #741964

    How about a jig head with a bunch of line floating off of it. Do you think animals/birds/fish will never get tangled in that line? I have untangled ducks and other birds that were wrapped up in line while fishing the Mississippi River. These were ducks and birds that would have died if I did not cut them loose. Fish get tangled in line too.

    And the way I fish for muskies, along with my brother and friends, is not the way the average fishermen fishes in general. We do 90% water releases where the fish never comes out of the water. We have all the necessary tools to cut hooks and our successful release rate is around 90-95%. Of the 55 muskies I caught last year, only 2 died. If you asked me about it, I would tell you that is 2 too many.

    If you go back to my previous post on this thread, I stated that this discussion will never go any where because most of the people on this site do not represent the average fishermen. The average fishermen does not have good fish handling practices and has poor releases. Catch and release is not successful for every fisherman.

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