You like to twist words around don’t you. All I did was quoate the words of a famous man, who was also a great conversationist. I thought those words would give people pause to think about what he said.
Nowhere did I tell anyone they are fools for not believing me.
I guess I’ll just keep my mouth shut from now on and follow the rest of the sheep.
I would sure like this mad scientist to show me evidence that proves two lines will decimate all our fisheries as you’ve stated. It simply sounds like a personal issue to me for someone who doesn’t want to make change. It’s natural for humans to resist change, we all do it. 7″ bullheads come to mind….
Your comparisons to hunting is like apples to oranges, I can’t really compare any one example to using two lines for fishing.
My biggest hurdle to overcome in this. Why can states all across the nation manage their fisheries in a healthy manner allowing multiple lines per angler. Yet, some in MN claim it would ruin all our fisheries. Why are we special??
If the science says that water temps of 70 or higher are the biggest leading factor to fish dieing, then why not close the season from July 15 – Sept 1?? Make it a kill only season?? Don’t give me the tourism/sustain business argument. Isn’t this about protecting the fisheries and being conservationist, not slobs as Teddy so eloquently put it??
I’m sorry, I hear the DNR and the few who oppose this law talking out both sides of their mouth. Be a conservationist, get more kids involved, take in the experience. Sorry, we are going to allow you use the best electronics ever made, mapping data that is more accurate than ever and boats that are designed to fish in any condition. But, we feel limiting you to one fishing rod will keep you from catching more fish. Really??
I fish Winnie a good bit and every season I see the same scene played out – the guides with 3 clients in their boats taking limits every single day the first month of season. Look at the impact on the fisheries that the guides have. Being in the business of putting people on fish – and killing limit after limit as part of that business, I find it a little bit hypocritical that a guide is so opposed to two lines for everybody else. It appears to be a little bit self-serving, IMO. The handful of guides I know are responsible for SEVERAL THOUSANDS of walleyes getting killed every season – it seems that the guide impact would be a greater concern than an extra line for the weekend warrior…… Just a thought…
Tim
In my opinion, the fact that they won’t close the season when water temps are over 70 proves that the resource management is not done based on science, but only using science as long as it doesn’t interfere with business.
They can’t claim that it would be bad for the resource because science says so, and then follow it up with fishing mortality is highest when the water is over 70 but we can’t close the season because it would hurt tourism.
That just doesn’t work for me.
WOW….Alot of good thoughts on both sides of this topic….
Myself…I would like to have the option of using 2 lines on open water at certain times. There are many times where I would still only use one line, but it sure would be nice when fishing with the kids and trying to get them excited about fishing.
I cant bash anyone for their thoughts on the subject, afterall everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I think that all of the Sonars, GPS, Electronic Contour maps, Better Boats, drift socks etc etc, do just as much to harm the fisheries as adding another open water line. THink of how much easier it is to catch fish with all these tools…
Besides, If two lines were allowed and it did negatively impact the fishery, could the limits not be ammended to manage the fishery better?
If two are allowed ever, I would sometimes use them, but if it never happens I will still go fishing just the same.
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I’ve said all I’m going to.
Finally! 
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I think that all of the Sonars, GPS, Electronic Contour maps, Better Boats
Technology just keeps getting better and better every year. I suppose you guys would be in favor of transmitting a chip in all of the fish so we know where they are at all times as well? How about we set up barriers and trap the fish in certain areas of the lake as well. Who cares? Let’s go trolling and set up a ten line spread and not let any other fishermen get in our way. Let’s go out and see how many fish we can hook in as short amount of time as possible, but yet sit out there for 18 hour increments catching and releasing as many fish as possible without regard to 20% of released fish will die anyway. Who cares? We are in this for our personal gratification so we can pound our chests bragging about how many fish we caught and released on any given day.
With technology the way it is going, we should not be adding things like an extra line. If anything we should be limiting things rather than adding. You guys are really missing the big picture here, and that is that fishing is not all about how many fish you can catch and release in a given time period. The numbers of fish that will die from catch and release will far exceed the number of fish taken for a full limit anyway on most good days of fishing.
Nice try taking a hit on guides throughout the state as well. These are fishermen that teach others how to catch fish and practice proper fish handling practices. The guides that I know only allow their customers to take their legal limit, not the guides limit as well. Guides do more good for the sport than they do bad. Some species (bass, muskie) of fish is a catch and release only operation for many guides.
Hey, I think it’s great you are in the sport of fishing for more than catching fish. I have some great memories from days when I didn’t catch a single fish too. However, I go fishing to catch fish. That to me is fun. In your eyes, now I’m a chest thumping slob because I want to catch more fish?? BTW, I think I fished 4-6 times in 2008 open water.
It appears to me so far hooking mortality is the only science those that oppose this have. With that said, if we are devastating these fisheries so badly with hooking mortality…. Why don’t we close the seasons until optimal conditions exist for fish to survive?? Can someone please answer that question?? What is truely optimal water temps for bass, walleye, muskie, catfish, muskie and panfish.
As far as guides, I do believe they kill way more fish in a year than I will in 10. Do I despise them or wish they would ban them, NO. I think they are great resources to get anyone started fishing. However, with that knowledge transfer comes more harm to a fishery according to the opposing crowd(more lines in the water). Right?? You now have an educated angler/s who knows where the fish are and how to catch them. So are guides really helping the resource??
To all the guides on this site, please don’t think I am in any way, shape or form against what you do. The above statement was solely for the purpose of attempting to prove a point.
After reading the reports in the Mille Lacs forum it doesn’t look like 2 lines is helping increase the limits any.
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BTW, I think I fished 4-6 times in 2008 open water.
You need to spend more time fishing and less time on the computer then. 
The point is that everyone seems to be doing fine with 1 line. There is no need to use 2 lines. Are you saying that you are not satisfied with what you catch with 1 line? If you are not satisfied, I would suggest other ways to fix that problem other than using 2 lines.
I think the arguement for 2 lines is pretty weak myself. I see no reason to change my standpoint on this issue either.
The arguement that because we use 2 lines in the winter we should be able to use 2 lines in the summer is weak. In the summer, I can fish 10 spots versus 1 spot in the winter. Mobility really is the big difference here. In the summer I can go find the fish much easier as where in the winter it is really tough to get around and find the fish. I do try to be mobile in the winter as much as possible, but it is not even close to how mobile I can be in the summer. Moving to find the fish is the key.
Also the winter fishing season is basically from December to February on a good year if you are lucky to get good early ice. 3 months long for walleyes/pike and 4 months long for panfish. The open water season is 6.5 months long for walleye/pike and about 8 months long for panfish. The winter can be tough to get around at times, an example would be the current winter we are having. Many lakes further north are basically unfishable unless you have a snowmobile, and even then it is still tough. Weather plays a bigger role in the winter than the summer on whether anglers can get out fishing. The cold water temperatures basically eliminate any delayed mortality issues unless the fish is hooked deeply or is poorly handled by the fisherman prior to the release.
I wish I didn’t have responsibilities like feeding my 3 kids or raising them properly. Then I would be on the water all the time. They are a drag on my extracurricular activities. 
I would argue access to fishing during the winter is even easier. You don’t have to own a boat, just drive to the lake. MN has one of the worst public fishing opportunities I’ve seen, almost all the lakes are developed. When it’s ice time, anyone with the ability to get to the lake can fish.
The DNR must have numbers on something like this. Hopefully the scientists over there can provide some details on that and few other questions I’ve got. It usually takes several weeks to get a reply to any email I’ve sent and have yet to get an answer from anyone with much detail. However, I’m confident my questions are not that challenging this time. I’ll be sure to post my questions and answers when I receive them.
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Nice try taking a hit on guides throughout the state as well. These are fishermen that teach others how to catch fish and practice proper fish handling practices. The guides that I know only allow their customers to take their legal limit, not the guides limit as well. Guides do more good for the sport than they do bad. Some species (bass, muskie) of fish is a catch and release only operation for many guides.
With the majority of bass and musky anglers being C&R guys, I was centering my comments more around the walleye issue – as most people like to keep what they can.
From what I have seen, at least in the area I fish and with the guides I know, the average clients are people that only get to fish a few times a year and want to maximize their opportunity to catch something. In general, the guides main objective is to provide an enjoyable day on the water and up the odds of the guys getting to bring something home. On Winnie, during the first month of season, you will see lots of guide boats out EVERY DAY – usually with 3 clients in each boat. Walleye after walleye gets hoisted over the gunnels and EVERY ONE that is legal get boxed until the legal limit is reached. I see it every time I go there.
I do not think this is a bad thing, as everybody needs to make a living. The lake is obviously doing all right. The clients have bought their licenses, so they are doing nothing wrong by keeping their limits. The issue I have is the dodging of the issue under the ruse that the guides are the biggest advocates of the sport. Flat out, they are responsible for more dead walleyes than a whole pile of average anglers combined each year. This IS NOT a hit on them, but just an observation. Worrying about the wrecking of a fishery due to letting people fish with an extra line and then turning around and knifing a few hundred walleyes each season just does not add up to me. In fact, it sounds both little hypocritical and a wee bit self-serving to me.
Tim
Another thought on the issue of guide vs “non-guide” fishermen can be brought up. I know some guides that when their clients get their limit, they are done fishing for that specie. Lets say they were fishing walleyes and they got their limit. Now, for the rest of that paid trip they either go fish for a different species of fish or they are done. They won’t continue to catch and release fish knowing that about 20% of those fish will die anyway. They will go look for some perch, panfish, bass, pike, muskie, etc., etc. to finish off the trip. How many “non-guide” fishermen do you see catching and releasing fish all day long regardless if they have their limit or not? I don’t know about you, but I see it a lot. A lot of them drop fish in the boat and take pictures with the fish out of the water for 4, 5, 6, 7 minutes at a time.
Where are you getting 20% of every fish caught dies?? If that is the case, in one weekend, my partner and I killed 32 walleyes on pool 4 just by catching them. If we can do that in one weekend, can you imagine how many fish are killed down there from March – April?? Then again from late Sept – Dec?? This is just up by the dam, the shear number of boats at times is staggering. Usually 2-3 guys per boat. That could be up to 6 lines or more if they are Wi residents.
I, too, question that 20% number. I catch WAY too many walleyes on lakes with tight slots like Upper Red and Kabetogama in the summer that have wounded mouths and split fins from being netted – so I know I am not the first guys catching them. 20% mortality on average sounds a little high to me. I have never seen a DNR report that used that number.
As far as catching and releasing after the limit is caught – it happens across the board. It is no different than tournament anglers having their limit one lower than the state limit so that they can continue fishing and culling.
From what I have read in the past, it appeared to me that studies indicate no significant catch rates on average when more than one line is used. Exceptions exist, such as cranking walleyes – which is typically a low mortality method anyhow……..
Tim
“Another thought on the issue of guide vs “non-guide” fishermen can be brought up. I know some guides that when their clients get their limit, they are done fishing for that specie.” -Baby Mallard
I thought this was the law, once a limit is met, it is time to stop fishing for the type of fish you have a limit of. So no, it is not by choice, and I hope all guides you know are following the law.
There have been studies done and that was the consensus. The number will vary between seasons though according to water temperature. It could be 50% or higher in July and August, and 15% in the cooler months. Since more fish are caught in the other 10 months of the year it ends up around 20%. I expect this number to go up if 2 lines are allowed in the summer. Delayed hooksets with the use of 2 lines will be the norm and will result in more gut and throat hooked fish.
OK, last questions for today. Where can I read this study?
Why does using two lines = delayed hooksets?? I fished two lines my hole life until moving here a 9 years ago. Sure, there is the occasional deep hook no matter how many lines you are running. Yes an occasional protected slot will die due to a deep hook.
I can tell you, anyone who has fished two lines knows it complicates things. You have to pay attention to another rod. When you get a bite, it’s not like you can just throw the rod in the holder, unless you plan to snag and break that rod on occasion. Been there, seen that. Very few times is it efficient to fish two rods(for me anyway). However, when trolling, it’s great. Lindy fishing, it would be great too. Of course bobber fishing. Other than that, not sure I see it as a huge benefit. You can’t tossing jigs. I guess vertical jigging, but who deep hooks a fish while jigging??
Again the only thing in the argument that has any biology behind it is hooking mortality. Please provide any studies you can. I’ve also done some google searches with few results.
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I find it a little bit hypocritical that a guide is so opposed to two lines for everybody else. It appears to be a little bit self-serving, IMO.
Who said I supported 2 lines for me and my boat?
I don’t, nor would I allow any client in my boat to ever use 2 lines even if it was legal. Besides, I can usually put people on a good enough bite that even I couldn’t handle 2 lines.
My work as a guide is to put people on fish. Most of my clients as I have already said only have 1 day licenses. If I take 3 people out fishing for 1 day a year on Mille Lacs, and they all limit out that is 12 fish.
How is that greater harm than you fishing 20-50 times a year on the same lake? Do you keep less than 3 limits during the course of the season?
Another thing, if I am so hipocritical as you seem to think, I have earned that right. I not only put people on fish for them to take home, I bring those customers into the local businesses to buy their licenses, snacks, hotel rooms, meals, and beverages after a good day on the water and a chance to remienece. My work also involves working with the local fisheries staff with creel cencus’, studies, off season citizens groups ,and many other things that are much beyond the realm of being a avid “sports angler”. I help develope and promote the tackle you use everytime you go fishing too. Not to mention I give input into the design and building of the boats you use when you go fishing. I AM a professional, and that is what is expected of me. You and everyone else are welcome.
Also, don’t forget, its people like me and all the other guides, that are left anyways, that you and everyone else on this site want to have post fishing reports and give detailed info so you can go out and catch the fish we have found.
Sorry I’ve been so hipocritical. I though maybe you and everyone else would give me some credit and at least listen and think about what I have to say and share.
Trust me, it will not be happening on this site anymore. I don’t need to take cra*p from T Ellis or anyone else for speaking my mind. 
I’m outa here, for good! 
Thats sucks if you leave! You are one of the most interesting and insightful posters on here.
Either way thanks JLD11 …. 
Jack –
I never said you thought you should be able to use two lines. That was not my message. My comments about hypocrisy stem from the fact that you stated that two lines would be harmful to the fishery – that two lines would cause too many fish to be killed. And now you just admitted the fact that your average client angler buys a 1-day license. I assume that would also mean that your average angler probably fishes only once or twice a year. I would further assume that without a competent guide, that the 3 anglers in your boat would *probably* not catch much, if anything. When you take them out and they go home with a limit of walleyes, I personally think that is fantastic! They did nothing wrong, and you did nothing wrong. From what I have seen with other guides, that is a common occurrence – and that gets directly to my point. Most good guides do that often, very often. As a good guide, you are directly responsible for the harvest of many, many times more walleyes than any individual angler can possibly be.
That is where my comments about the hypocrisy stem from. Adamant comments about two lines wrecking a fishery, and the everyday practice about putting people onto way more fish than they could ever do alone seem to be two concepts that are at odds with each other?!? I never said that was a bad thing, I never said I didn’t think it was a great thing – in fact I have a lot of respect for guides. My hats are off to them. I guided a good bit through my college years and have a very good idea of the work and effort that goes into being a guide. But at the same time, I can’t gloss over the fact that guides are responsible for a ton more harvest than any average angler (not a bad thing – just an observation)
If you chose to leave over a civil difference of opinion because you were insulted, then I apologize for any unintentional insult. I never intended to insult you. I wish you the best – and I hope you have a great guiding year.
Tim
JLDII,
I would hope you don’t leave from this one discussion!! I will not add fuel to the fire, but am on the opposite side of the fence right now. I got hooked in a Packer Viking post a year or two ago and about lost my mind. People have opinions. Like Sammy Kershaw once said, “Don’t talk about politics, religion, and her.”…and now you can add two lines proposal in Minnesota… 
Chevy / Ford, Marcum / Vexlar, Humminbird / Garmin, Ski Doo / Artic Cat…and it goes on and on. If people are strong in their convictions, you will not sway their thoughts. Not saying one person is right. I now ATTEMPT to state my opinion and walk away. The site as a whole does a lot of good and I value input from many on here. Just found that I needed to walk away from certain posts and be okay with that. Go cool off and come back in a week or two. I bet after a little time you won’t be so 
. NOW IF I COULD ONLY GET PAST THOSE DARN VIKING FANS BEING SO IGNORANT!!! Just kidding guys…love ya… 
Ted
I agree Ted Too many times, people put up personal attacks. There is no room for that in any productive discussion. Attacking a guy for his profession is uncalled for. I would think maybe a guy who spends as much time on the water, as Jack does, may have a stronger conviction. I also think this thread could be titled “2 lines on Mille Lacs” as I assume that most are referencing it. How bout 2 lines anywhere but Mille Lacs ??? Would that appease the masses ? Would it take some pressure of Mille Lacs ? I know, I know, getting rid of gil nets would also do that, but that’s not this discussion. It’s just a question. I would hate to see Jack leave, but when you kick a guy enough, he’s apt to not come back for more…..
big G
T Ellis, I think an apology is in order.
You’ve got to be kidding me… It was his own statements I quoted. I’m sorry Jack took offense.
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Also, don’t forget, its people like me and all the other guides, that are left anyways, that you and everyone else on this site want to have post fishing reports and give detailed info so you can go out and catch the fish we have found.
Also this is why I had the tears icon on the one post. How are any of us going to catch any fish without these reports with all the knowledge, techniques, etc to catch the fish now that Mr Dunn isn’t going to post them. 
He tries to put himself on a pedistal based on his remarks and frankly I just don’t see it. Kinda sounds like alot of pro athlete talk but haven’t figured out they are washed up and yesterday’s news.
Come on Jack. Nobody is calling you a bad guide or person for that matter. Some of us simply stated guide clients kill way more fish in a year than Joe weekend angler. Nobody is judging you!! I stated that very clearly. I’m sorry if I came across as offensive, this was not a personal attack by any means. Hope to see you back here again, if not, I’ll see you on opener!
Trying to get back on track to the question at hand. Per an article published in the Feb 2009 In-Fisherman magazine, author Steve Quinn. He sites a recent hooking mortality study done specifically on Mille Lacs in 2007, Reeves & Brusewitz.
The nuts and bolts:
fish bleeding have a 20% chance of death when water temps reach mid to upper 70 degrees. Non-bleeding fish have basically the same odds. Once water hits 70 degrees, the hooking morality of non-bleeding fish quickly climbs from less than 5% to 20%+. This same study shows fish from 12 to 24 inches are the strongest and most likely to survive if deep hooked.
So, what I surmise from reading this article and viewing the charts provided by the MN DNR. Walleyes have a less than 5% mortality anytime water is below 68 degrees…bleeding or not. It also notes live bait and jigs have little difference to survival rates along with depths fish were caught at. Crankbaits have the least impact compared to other styles/methods used to catch fish.
What a timely article!! Now, keep in mind, this is Mille Lacs only. I don’t know how these same numbers would play out on say Buffalo lake or other “smaller” bodies of water.
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He sites a recent hooking mortality study done specifically on Mille Lacs in 2007, Reeves & Brusewitz.
The nuts and bolts:
fish bleeding have a 20% chance of death when water temps reach mid to upper 70 degrees. Non-bleeding fish have basically the same odds. Once water hits 70 degrees, the hooking morality of non-bleeding fish quickly climbs from less than 5% to 20%+. This same study shows fish from 12 to 24 inches are the strongest and most likely to survive if deep hooked.
Hooking mortality on Mille Lacs in 2007 was 127,000 lbs. On July 7 that year it was announced that on July 11th the slot on Mille Lacs would be, and was, reduced to a 14-16″ harvest slot till Dec.1.
127,000 lbs. with 1 line per person!
What would it have been with 2 lines per person?
Thanks Kooty, you made my point for me. But what do I know, I’m just a pompas hipocritical blow hard, right Mr. Ellis?
Me, Personally, I like the 3 line law which exists on the Wisconsin side of the St. Croix River, keeps me busier than a one legged man in an Arkansas butt kicking contest, helping me maintain my lean and mean figure! 
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