Overharvest of a fishery vs two lines proposal

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What is Wi managing? Premier walleye lakes dont come to mind when thinking of Wisconsin. Hammer handle pike lakes sure do.

More lines = larger harvest = less fish.

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Mike, I don’t get your thinking. You and Wellman always state the same things. I don’t know of a Mille Lacs or Leech or Red in WI, but then I don’t know that state well at all. Look at the data Joe B put up on lake Mendota(i think this is right). Hoping some WI boys will jump in here.

Slots and limits along with the proper amount of harvest make trophy fisheries. With catch and release more dominant than ever, I just don’t get how people can’t see two or three rods have little to no affect on a fishery. Those few who do limit, get the limit no matter how many lines they have out. Look at Erie, 3 lines per person. One of, if not the best, walleye fishery in the world. They ask for sport fishing to kill some fish in that lake. Lake Oahe, 10 – 14 fish limits in order to manage the fishery properly. Didn’t matter if you had one or two rods in the water. Now what is the limit on Oahe?? 4 fish. They manage the fishery…..

Not every lake has to be a trophy fishery.

I recall there being a lot of “dead” lakes in WI, but I always thought it has less to do with the number of lines and has more to do with all the FIBers who bought up all the land in WI and invade every weekend.

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I don’t hear about over harvesting in those states

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No you don’t because they all come to Minnesota to fish.

I’m apposed to it but if it passes it’s not the end of the world.
The harvest will go up of course and the limits may need to be amended.

I think I’ll add radar to my boat it’s bad enough on Mille Lacs with everybody paying attention to their Lake-Master Chips instead of where their boat is heading.

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No you don’t because they all come to Minnesota to fish.

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Weird, I’ve fished from Devil’s lake to Erie and I see non-residents from all over the country. I don’t think MN has a monopoly on tourism.

I also don’t believe arguing boat control is a reason to limit a person to one line. I can do figure 8’s down the river channel no matter how many lines I’ve got in the water.

Reports by the WI DNR suggest that nearly 2/3 of all fish caught are released in the state of WI. In other words, even though WI can use 3 lines, anglers still release 2 out of every 3 fish. CPR is the now the norm and not the minority. I sincerely believe that changing the law to two lines in MN would not hurt the fishery in any way, shape, or form.

Wisconsin statewide mail survey 2006-07

………….# of fish caught……# of fish harvested
All panfish………57,728,758……25,732,346
Walleye…………..7,068,112…….2,155,626
All bass…………10,073,286………550,335
All trout…………1,615,190………497,783
Musky………………223,101……….12,493
Northern pike……..3,158,927………621,700
Catfish…………….777,094………535,658
Other…………….7,580,707…….2,983,290
TOTAL FISH…….88,225,175……33,089,231

Joel B was referring to Lake Wisconsin which has as fine a walleye and sauger fishing as anywhere I’ve been and I’ve been doing it for 20 years and been to lots of places. If you like to catfish, having a few more baits can be the difference in a good night and a poor one.

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I don’t hear about over harvesting in those states

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No you don’t because they all come to Minnesota to fish.

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Not sure why you say this.

This is off the WI DNR website:

Wisconsin annually sells about 1.4 million fishing licenses to adult anglers.

381,000 nonresident anglers fished in Wisconsin in 2006, spending a total of 3.8 million days

Wisconsin is the second favorite destination spot for nonresident anglers

Wisconsin ranks among the top 5 states in terms of numbers of anglers, behind the more populous coastal states of Florida, California and Texas

It might effect harvest having 2 lines.Here in Kansas you can have a permit to run three.Sure some will abuse it and there may be some hooking mortality .But I cant remember the last time I actually cleaned a fish here.We catch and release.It is nice having the extra lines when you are trying a pattern.But if I have more than a couple in the but I still don’t always run 2 lines each.The fishing is better here than most states.

I think you guys stating that 3 lines will spark this sudden surge of over harvest don’t really have any data to back your OPINIONS….do you?

Growing up and fishing from shore I threw 3 lines in the water all the time. The reason was simply to better our odds at catching fish.

This leads to your point that b/c better odds = more fish caught = over harvest, but daily bag limits and possession limits still remain the same. Number of rods isn’t going to change that. More Rods doesn’t equal more fish consumed.

People that break the law, break the law….what difference will number of Rods make to them??? It’s like saying I can only bring 1 other person in my boat b/c If I bring 2 people we’ve tripled our odds and are going to over harvest….Doesn’t really make sense….

Just my .02 – good discussions across the board though.

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It’s like saying I can only bring 1 other person in my boat b/c If I bring 2 people we’ve tripled our odds and are going to over harvest….Doesn’t really make sense….

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I really like this analogy. I may steal it for the future when this topic comes up again.

My feelings toward this issue, which I did not state before, comes down to tradition. It has been tradition in Minnesota to only fish with 1 line for as long as I can remember. That’s the way it has always been. My grandpa who is passed away, rest his soul, was an avid fisherman who always fished with 1 line. I think we have a strong tradition here in Minnesota. In WI, most lakes don’t allow trolling with motors. You ask why is that? It’s because that is their tradition. Trolling does not hurt the fishery any more than other methods of fishing, it is only that way because of tradition.

This debate is not really going any where on a site like this. Everyone on this site is more than likely an above average fisherman along with great experience with proper catch and release practices. I’m sorry, but the average fisherman does not have catch and release practices up to par. A lot of people here seem like the DNR is always the enemy and I laugh every time I hear it. They deserve a lot more credit.

Catch and release has made a huge stride as well as education on proper fish handling techniques. However, there have been some studies that show 20% of released fish die. Along with this, many fishermen feel the need to fish during the heat of the summer pulling fish from deep water. I have experienced this type of fishing myself to know what happens. It can be pulling fish from deep water no matter the time of year as well. This is especially true for walleyes, crappies, and perch. I have even experienced a lot of dead muskies from open water trolling in the deep basin of a lake. I’m not the only one either, well-known experienced guides have too. The DNR was called on that situation and they will tell you the same exact thing.

In the end, I am not in support of 2 lines in open water because of tradition. If it gets passed, I will live with it, and will fish with 2 lines myself. I think it will be great for the fishermen and without a doubt will catch more fish. I know I will. I just don’t think it is best for the fish, just my opinion. I will expect to see a lowered statewide bag limit and a slot limit put in place if this happens. That I have no problem with.

By the way Mr. Crankbait troller, I guess I didn’t do a good enough job at showing my sarcasm on that one . You are right there is no logic to my statement, but you also have to admit that that is a big reason why you want an extra line . All in good fun!

Side note: post up that in-fishermen article. Curious to know what time of the year the study was done in and in how deep of water, as well as the water temps. Would be a good read.

Peace out. Don’t argue too much, with most people here not representing the average fisherman. thanks and catch a big one

I hate to “argue” as stated, but tradition?? Man, if we stuck with every tradition in history we’d have slaves and we wouldn’t have to worry about netting in Mille Lacs.

I have yet to hear a realistic argument that even comes close to getting me to change my mind. This is from a bunch of folks I consider “educated fisherman”.

Most guys argue more fish will die(be eaten, hooking mortality etc….). Most of those same guys say the bag limits will have to be changed to support more fish leaving our lakes.

Do MN lakes get that much more pressure each day vs. lakes say in WI?? Are MN’s such gluttons we will ignore the bag and possession limits and wipe out our fisheries??

Hey, ask all the WI guys why trolling is not allowed with a motor on a lot of their lakes? I have asked and talked to hundreds of different Sconnies and one answer always pops up: “tradition.”

Kooty, I am not trying to get you to change your mind or anyone else for that matter. I respect your opinion as well as everyone elses. I just gave my .02.

I should clarify my previous post. First it would be a pretty safe bet to say IDO folks are above (quite a bit above) average anglers. Secondly there are situations and techniques that lend themselves better to fishing 2 lines than others in terms of minimizing hooking mortality.

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We can’t have two lines because it may harm the resource…but certain groups can use gill nets during the spawn, and that is seen as OK.

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Excellent point Tuck! It’s amazing how we have a tendency to forget how ludricrous our laws really are!

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Chris, you are mixing issues with that statement. Minnesota has the right to legislate weather or not sport anglers should have the right to use 2 lines. The state of Minnesota does not have any legislative or legal right to regulate gill nets used by native american indians in the excersizing of their court affirmed harvesting rights granted to them as a souveriegn nation. That said, the courts that granted those rights to the native american indians do not have the legal or legislative right to try to regulate how many lines sport anglers are allowed to use on Minnesota’s inland waters.

Of course you know all of that don’t you?

As for the use of 2 lines, I am very much opposed to it. The waters in Minnesota are different than those of our surrounding states. Thus, the fisheries and the ecosystems on those waters are different also. What works well there might not work well here from a scientific perspective.

Hooking mortality goes up substantially every year on all lakes once the surface water temps reach or exceed 70 degrees, but more fish will be hooked resulting in more fish subject to dying.

On average, in Minnesota the average fisherman seldom if ever catches a limit, of any species, less lone say, walleye. Giving all those people an extra line, and those numbers will grow, as will the numbers of fish caught and released, some of which might die.

In the end, the more fish that come into direct contact with any human being, the more fish that are going to die, regardless of how good we think we are at catch and release. Try as we may to be stewards of outdoors, and fish carefully with all the best intents and purposses, the more we destroy that which we love the most.

Someone asked why we can use 2 lines on ice and not on open water. Its simple, hooking mortality for ice fishing is very low if the fish is not hooked deep, regardless of what some here have said. That is why there was never any changes made to the regs on Mille Lacs during ice season when we’ve been real tight to our quota. Basically, hooking mortality is non-exsistant.

As for using 2 lines on open water, the DNR is very opposed to it, and they will have the deciding testimony before the legislature if this idea even makes it that far, and as for Mille Lacs, even if the state is dumb enough to pass this, it WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED ON MILLE LACS. The Input group and the DNR’s Treaty Managment team just will not allow it.

I’d like to see two lines available on Pool 2 which is a catch-and-release fishery anyhow. No sense restricting fishermen there to a single line.

Elsewhere, I see the argument cutting both ways and would likely require lake-by-lake rules to manage the individual fishery in that body of water.

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More Rods doesn’t equal more fish consumed.

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Obviously Harvest and mortality will go up. How much is the question. Will it be minimal or will certain restrictions or reductions in bag limits be needed.

Great topic! I also beleive more lines does not necessarily mean more fish harvested.More lines in water can shorten the learning curve on how to pattern or find specific techniques faster to catch fish.Which in turn can lead to catching more fish in a shorter period of time.But those who overharvest will most generally violate reguardless if they fish with 1,2 or 3 lines.They will do it over a period of time,keeping fish under sized,over sized & or over limits.The DNR might change or lower bag limits or impose different slot limits to keep the fishery in check.So they drop bag limit to 2 fish.If you harvest fish this might just mean you might need to get out 1 more night to feed your family!Can you say bonus trip. Are you going to quit fishing?I feel somewhat fortunate to be able to fish with multiple lines(3) being from WI.Will also say I dont desire to fish in MN much, as fishing 1 line cuts my learning curve way down trying to learn or pattern a new to me body of water.It seems to me there would be an increase in revenues from either adding a stamp for an extra line & more $ brought into the state from visitors such as myself just by adding 1 extra line.Just think $100.00 fuel & you gotta know I would be refueling there in MN as its considerably cheaper than where Im from here in gougeville!$100.00 night motel-cabin & food,lures,film batteries and any other number of accesories that 1 always seems to need.Everyone knows you have to support the local baitshop(s). Its easy to drop $300 – $500 + coming over for the weekend.Heck I would love to come & fish some of the highly talked about fisheries in MN.,but to run just 1 line? What fishing is there,that I dont allready have + more opportunities running 3 lines per angler.Just think 3-5 people in boat,3 lines each = 9-15 lures out either equals fish on,on,on… or big mess. Especially when a big snot rocket(pike)or musky clears 1 whole side out & thinks hes going to the other side now. Now this makes for interesting conversation & a sight to remember.If you dont think there is quality fishing here in WI I would say your completely nuts! I have 3 children between the ages of 8 – 13 & all 3 of them have caught walleye over 8lbs.& you should see the smiles on their face when they have multiple fish on (more than 1 fish on at a time)priceless!I urge you to come to WI & try it then go home & tell me you would rather run 1 line. I can understand some of the concerns of overharvesting stemming from adding a line.But those are not your true sportsman – sportswomen who only take what they can reasonably eat that would deplete the resources. Best of luck fishing all. WHITE TIP

Here is a really stupid question for all whom want 2 or more lines in the water.

Why isn’t one line good enough?
What are you trying to accomplish with 2 lines?
What is your objective with 2 lines in the water?

Would it, could it, should it be for the fact that YOU WILL CATCH MORE FISH?

McFly?

Common guys.
Don’t deny the actual “un-written, un-documented” FACT that you are uping the odds in your favor. Arguing that fact is in the same regard at arguing how to measure common sense.

Running more than 2 lines will increase your catch.

I’m not saying we should or shouldn’t have multiple lines, but you can’t argue you won’t increase your catch.

As BK stated, the “limits” set by the DNR are not the expected daily catches of fisherman. They are the “limit” and the DNR does not expect the vast majority of fisherman to fullfill their limit.

YES, I agree Gary, I want to catch more fish. However, two lines does not mean more fish caught = eaten/killed fish.

Jack, how are the fisheries in MN so different than say WI?? Why do we have such a greater hooking mortality here vs WI?? If hooking mortality is that bad, why isn’t walleye season close in all states from July – Aug??(not sure it is in any state) Possibly because other states manage the fisheries in such a manner?? The fact the number boats on our lakes in July and Aug is nothing compared to May/June??

I love this subject because I feel it’s one of Mn’s stupidest laws having grown up with two rods in my hand. Besides, I need all the help I can get when it comes to catching fish….

Gary, why two lines? Most of the summer I fish bass only needing one line. But, if I fish panfish often I’ll have one line out with a minnow for crappies, maybe another with a worm for gills. ANd possibly be casting an artificial with a third. If the bites really slow it does speed up the process of finding fish. If the bites really good, then often only one pole will be used as it’s too dificult to effectively manage more than one.

If your catfishng you can run one pole with sonnys, another with live bait to speed up with what works best that day. I guess I’m lucky to be a resident of WI, only being restricted to use one pole in Minnesota would really bite in my opinion.

I don’t think anyone here would deny that using two lines would increase the number of fish that are caught. The question is would it have an impact on the fishery? It seems to be working in all of our neighboring states, why couldn’t it work here?

Many of our lakes are also our managed on an individual basis (slots and limits). Why couldn’t we manage some of those same lakes individually by the number of lines that you can use? Some lakes may have too much fishing pressure and therefore only one line would be allowed.

I’d just add that IDO has a phenominally well-respected pool of anglers. Each of course has his or her argument for or against this issue. I do not feel that those who are reponding to this are those who will affect any fishery by being able to use two lines. All of us need to consider that there are those who do not contribute here, but read here. It is far more likely that the “unseen” element is that which will benefit in fuller limits, double dipping when the bite is hot and keeping a limit “just because I am entitled to”, and that this same element is not going be reflected upon in any survey. My concern doesn’t lie in two lines while using artificial baits, it’s while using live bait. Deep hooking will result in fewer fish being able to survive being released and I’d be willing to bet that live bait is the preferred bait of the “hogs” being mentioned.

I would bet that everyone who has responded to this has the utmost of respect for their fishing resources and have personal practices which go a long way to enhance that resource. Both sides of this coin are seeing compelling argument. Perhaps the resolve to this issue could be found not in whether two lines should be allowed, but rather what is being used on the two lines. I don’t have a problem so much with two lines pulling artificial baits, but two lines towing live bait I would not ever support outside of border waters and in that instance we’re stuck because Minnesota and Wisconsin can’t come to an accord..

Jack, how are the fisheries in MN so different than say WI?? Why do we have such a greater hooking mortality here vs WI?? If hooking mortality is that bad, why isn’t walleye season close in all states from July – Aug??(not sure it is in any state

Kooty, every fishery is different. By fishery I mean both what lives under the water, water conditions such as clarity, fertility, depth, temp, and…. how it is used by people. Some lakes have heavy presure on one species, but little if any on another species in that same lake. The number of man hours of fishing presure per acre is different from lake to lake also. While 2 lines might not have much effect on a lake that maybe gets 2-3 boats fishing on it a day, a lake like Mille Lacs that might have 1000’s of boats on it in a day would be much more impacted and possibly destroyed. Its like a saturation theory. Allowing a blanket law allowing 2 lines per person just does not properly protect those fisheries that can not stand up to such pressure.

As for mortality when the water hits 70 degrees. It is the same on walleyes in all waters in all states. Some fish species are even more stressed at that temp than others, while some species, like sunnies aren’t effected by that nearly so much.

As for closing seasons, well that just isn’t very feasible considering how many peoples livilyhoods are based on these waters. How many resorts, bait shops, fishing guides and such would be put out of business. Plus, fishing presure does usually drop on many waters after the 4th of July, and fish, say walleyes change their patterns and become much harder for many of your average anglers to target effectly, thusly reducing hooking and mortality from catch and release.

How many here know that in 2007 the hooking mortality on Mille Lacs was over 127,000 lbs.. How high do you think it would have been if everyone was using 2 lines? How early in the season do you think the DNR would have had to close the lake to ALL fishing because of the court decision? By all, that means absolutely ALL fishing for all species.

Being devil’s advocate here.

Running 2 lines is all about upping the ante and “hooking” more fish, right.

It doesn’t matter about harvest, cause the greater mentality of “all” anglers is CPR, right?
(I doubt that)

HOWEVER,
if that were honestly the case, then why isn’t 99% of the fisherman in this state FLOCKING to Upper Red to catch oodles and oodles and oodles of walleyes?
Why, cause you can only have 2 fish.

My belief is that if the state went to 2 lines, you would see fish limits cut in half straight across the board for all species.
Meaning:
2 walleyes
5 crappies
5-10 sunnies
1 pike
zero muskies

My belief.
I don’t believe our fishery could handle a state wide, 2-line fishing pressure. Only if there was a complete conservation license available, where if the angler wanted to fish two lines, they would not be able to keep any fish or possibly 25% of the limit?

With that said, would you purchase a 2-line conservation license to go to Mille Lacs to only be able to bring back one or two fish?
Doubt it, cause people ain’t flocking to Upper Red to bring back 2 fish.

I’m kinda surprized that if Minnesota wants to make it harder to obtain a limit that they wouldn’t go all out and ban electronics also.

Just think it’s kind of backwards thinking to try to make it harder to catch fish. I would think a youngster would have a more enjoyable day during a tough bite if he was using two poles instead of one.

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zero muskies

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I am now against MN going to two lines.

This conversation reminds me awhile back on a fishing trip with a big party of friends.

The debate came up if you are a “marksman” or a “hunter”.
Some guys were bragging at how they can shoot a deer at 300yards.
While the friendly, but somewhat serious banter was that they “had too”, because they didn’t have the skill or ability to get closer to the deer.

So,
A marksman is a good shot because he has to be.
A hunter doesn’t have to be a marksman.

So,
are you a fisher?
or
are you a catcher?

A fisherman is like a hunter. They are out for the thrill of the chase.
A catcher is like a marksman. They are out to for the fill of the freezer.

Neither is wrong.

For the record, I’m for 2 lines in Minnesota.

On the topic of hooking mortality. I would think water temp is the biggest factor. Should the state completely close fishing when water temps get above 70? Or mandate that every single fish caught be kept?

-J.

Would be nice to have a sucker out the back while I’m casting for muskies. But I’m not a meat man either. Almost all of my fish go back. Even the panfish. Don’t get me wrong…I like to eat fish…just too lazy to clean them. Especially when they (I) are (am) frozen!!