Note from a ford dealer regarding the bailout.

  • Randy Wieland
    Lebanon. WI
    Posts: 13473
    #730298

    This letter about made me puke!

    I disagree with many points about quality. Ask why Allison won’t stand behing the trannys sent to GM – “Because they (GM) demand we build them to their lessor standards and specifications”

    Why did the transfer case in my jeep have plastic gears???

    I could list stupid questions like this all day long. My point is I disagree with items in the letter. Sad, but we are already feeling the effects of their failure. Ask anyone in the auto industry if they want to build a house right now because interest rates are dirt cheap……

    eisert
    Posts: 76
    #730584

    My question is this- if Ford and Chevrolet are outselling imported cars so well, why is there any need for a bailout? Seems like Toyota and Honda are doing just fine financially.

    chris-tuckner
    Hastings/Isle MN
    Posts: 12318
    #730585

    They are subsidezed by their Governments. (In a way.) Japan likes to devalue the Yen when it works out to their advantage. That way they make more for their products, like cars. This year, Toyota is reporting a loss for the first time in like 14 years I think I heard…

    riveratt
    Central Wisconsin US-of-A
    Posts: 1464
    #730661

    Quote:


    Seems like Toyota and Honda are doing just fine financially.



    Based on what? The fact the media doesn’t talk about them? Give it a few more months and they will. In the mean time just use a search engine and you will find the imports are not in real good condition either.

    Just a quick note. Friday we had TWO different customers attempt to purchase a vehicle. One couple had a credit rating of 760 and the other person a whopping 780. The 760 people were declined outright. The 780 people would be approved with what turned out to be 35% of the purchase price of the vehicle.

    Can someone point me in the direction to the explanation of how that is the unions or automakers failed business plans fault? Seriously, I’m totally committed to seeing this.

    herb
    6ft under
    Posts: 3242
    #730686

    Toyota just issued it’s second profit warning in less than 2 months and it will likely post a $1.66 billion loss for the year ending in march. Money is tight everywhere.
    What happened to the billions the banks recieved? I thought part of it was supposed to go for more consumer loans. I know the bankers are still flying in their corporate jets and at least 1.5 billion went to bonus’.
    What I’m saying is all this spite against the auto makers and uaw seems quite unfair.
    If they were selling cars and trucks the loans wouldn’t be needed. And it’s not because they don’t make a good product.

    farmboy1
    Mantorville, MN
    Posts: 3668
    #730704

    Quote:


    My question is this- if Ford and Chevrolet are outselling imported cars so well, why is there any need for a bailout? Seems like Toyota and Honda are doing just fine financially.


    Just came out today.

    toyota operating loss article

    chris-tuckner
    Hastings/Isle MN
    Posts: 12318
    #730705

    Good points. And think of all the folks that have been losing jobs? All of those credit ratings that will suffer due to the economy. Perfectly good people with ratings suffering will have a hard time getting mortgages and cars. It is a viscious circle.

    b-curtis
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 1438
    #730707

    Actually Toyota is going to have its first operating loss in 70 years (1.7 billion loss compared to 28 billion last year). Sounds like they are still looking at a profit this year, nothing like they expected, but still positive (50 billion yen versus 550 billion yen). Chris about the currency, one of the reasons for the loss is apparently the yen is getting even stronger versus the dollar (I believe I read they lost 2 billion from currency but also read that the yen was up 25% and is a huge reason for the loss).

    So yes they are struggling, just like all the auto companies are, and many other companies are. The difference is (as of today, might be different next year) that Toyota is positioned to weather the storm (they have more cash on hand than what the bailout is for, very little debt, and MUCH less in labor overhead). They are taking steps to get through this. Just like many other American companies are. If you can’t weather the storm, you go bankrupt. Not for the Auto guys, they just go beg for handouts.

    So the company and the UAW do take a big part of the blame. When the economy is running great it doesn’t matter how you run your business because you roll in the money. Sure, it seems like a good time to agree to all of those wonderful demands of the union. But when the economy turns bad, the inefficiencies come screaming out. The Big 3 (or I guess 2) didn’t prepare themselves to handle a bad economy. And now they still won’t have to worry about it because the government gives them a handout.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22450
    #730712

    Would you agree, the biggest problem is the failed economy ? Somebody said it, if consumers cannot egt credit, to buy a vehicle, how is that the Automakers fault ? This whole mortgage lending crisis, is just starting to roll, it is starting with some big players, that are struggling, do we just let them fail (because its their fault the economy is so poor) or do we weather the storm and hopefully minimize damage ? I don’t think we can apply the old adage “the strong survive” in this case, I don’t believe there are “any” strong.

    big G

    b-curtis
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 1438
    #730729

    Yes, the economy is impacting the majority of companies, domestic and foreign. All companies, not just the auto industry. If a company isn’t prepared to handle the downturn, even a drastic one like this, they go out of business or file bankruptcy and reorganize. You cannot allow the financial industry to completely collapse so I can understand bailing them out, although I’m not saying the billion given to them is such a great idea. But the concept is correct. You are right it isn’t their fault is falling apart, but it is their fault they are not prepared to handle it better. Other companies are weathering the storm on their own. They don’t need a handout. The bad economy is impacting all automakers, but so far only two have begged. That tells me that others must be running their business better. Maybe some are not begging and will just go out of business?? Maybe others will be begging next year or three years from now. Who knows for sure. Only two companies collapse as quickly as they did. I just don’t think we should reward handouts to mismanaged companies.

    Maybe we should bail out all companies. It isn’t their fault the economy is bad so let’s save everybody. Maybe mom and pop store owners can go in front of congress and say they need a handout. I don’t see why a car company is so much more special than any other business. I don’t want to hear about the number of jobs lost either. The country is already absorbing the number of loses each month if one of the companies went out of business (which won’t happen – bankruptcy and reorganize). Somehow the UAW has gotten the entire country to feel their employees are the most important workers in the whole world and we need to protect them. Sorry, I think paying the grass mower $65 an hour and paying full pay and benefits to thousands of employees to do nothing is a big waste and should be eliminated.

    herb
    6ft under
    Posts: 3242
    #730734

    Something told me I was wasting my time with this thread.
    Have a nice winter.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22450
    #730737

    I thought 3 were begging ???? Anyways, if it is a bailout, then I presume that no payback is required…. If it is a loan, which is actually what it is, why isn’t it called such ? I would guess “bailout” sounds better on the news and gets the viewers attention… (it did for the financial industry, which was/is really a bailout) I can tell you, from a somewhat insiders view, there are lots of Changes happening at Chrysler every minute of the day. Emails are being sent out almost on the hour, telling of vendors that will not be renewed at years end, employees that are taking packages and are no longer with Chrysler, costs cut on things like special tools and literature…. it definitely is changing here. I guess loaning/bailing out a company with 10 employees, might not have as big of an impact as doing it with one the size of GM or Chrysler or Ford.

    big G

    b-curtis
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 1438
    #730750

    Three started out but one realized they had enough money to get by, which raises some concerns about the accounting department. Yes, changes. That is good. I saw that Toyota has unplugged the electric hand dryers in the john to save money. Not sure how that impacts the cleanliness of the employees.

    They can call it a loan, but will ever really be paid back? Say I haven’t read all the details, but what happens if they end up filing bankruptcy after the loan, do they have to still pay it back or does it get included in the bankruptcy?

    Again, they won’t go out of business, just bankruptcy so not everybody would be losing their jobs. Yes, those are some bigger companies, but just locally why is someone who works at the ford plant (or I suppose a Ford dealership) more important than say someone who works at 3M, Best Buy, or Hutchinson Technology? I feel bad for anybody who loses their job but I don’t feel worse for an auto worker. Trim the fat. They have a lot of fat.

    I did read some interesting stuff that if hypothetically one of the three went completely out of business that once the economy turns around in a couple years, the majority of those workers would be consumed by the other two and apparently the imports have some huge expansion plans here (which of course are all on hold right now) and would be hiring many of those workers (I believe I read that 25% of all US autoworkers already work at foreign plants). Others would find other professions. Yes, they would have to go work for a foreign company (which I can tell you isn’t that bad) and you can make the argument that the profits leave this country. But really, the workers would be earning a nice paycheck and I bet that is more important to them than which CEO gets the big fat paycheck.

    Steve Plantz
    SE MN
    Posts: 12240
    #730765

    I got this in an email and checked it out on Snopes.com and the letter is true. It is long but it is a good read.

    Subject: GM supplier answers GM President Troy Clarke’s “plea” / Great
    response

    If you have a few minutes read this, it’s good.

    This is one good response to the requests for bailout money I have seen in
    awhile. As a supplier for the Big 3 this man received a letter from the
    President of GM North America requesting support for the bailout program.
    His response is classic, and has to make you proud of a local guy who
    tells it like it is.

    Letter to General Motors

    rivereyes
    Osceola, Wisconsin
    Posts: 2782
    #730795

    hmmm I found the guy to be kind of a pompous blowhard and his views were skewed a bit from reality… that being said he is not totally wrong… the main message being… bad practices have been allowed to occur.. and balance will be restored…. economics is cruel.. just like nature.. there is summer and there is winter… life and death… good times and bad… the winter is here (in more ways than one)…. spring will come.. the strong will survive… and just like in real life sometimes if you feed (bailout) the animals a few more will live

    riveratt
    Central Wisconsin US-of-A
    Posts: 1464
    #731003

    This isn’t a “bail out” any more than yours/our car loan or mortgage is. I swear reading some of this is worse than watching the ignorant media. The auto makers are receiving a LOAN. Read the details for crying out loud.

    It also seems a lot of people think the auto makers can simply tell the UAW “no” and continue on with business as usual. Obviously people that think this way know even less than I do about the UAW/Big Three relationship not to mention the legalities of such. You guys honestly think that if the 3 could tell the unions to go fly a kite and keep the difference in labor profits that they’d just blow it off because they are already “rolling in the dough”? I rather doubt it. I am by no means an expert in union laws but can assure you it isn’t a matter of just saying no to them. Again they’d have been replaced ages ago if it were possible.

    For those hoping and wishing the Big 3 go away I hope your dreams come true. I can hardly imagine how you’d react to that and who’s fault it’d be the economy is completely halted. Let’s see, 20% unemployment, the largest group of the highest average income workers out of work, and the auto companies themselves NOT contributing MILLIONS of dollars a day to the economy. Yeah, that sounds good.

    My question is this as it has come up in other discussions. What is the governments job? We pay the government BILLIONS of dollars in taxes annually. Why? Just to have a government? Just to pay taxes? Well I was always taught the job of the government was to protect the country from internal and external threats. After paying an endless amount of money into the government I completely fail to see why it is unreasonable to see a return on that investment.

    rivereyes
    Osceola, Wisconsin
    Posts: 2782
    #731014

    true words RR… can we afford to let them fail? maybe not… where does it stop.. I think states are going to need to be bailed out pretty soon…. if it keeps sinking WE are going to need to be bailed out… this is a rolling disaster and starts from the top like an avalance and works its way down….. when it gets to the bottom nothing to do but dig out and the survivors get back on with life…

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22450
    #731031

    Quote:


    This isn’t a “bail out” any more than yours/our car loan or mortgage is. I swear reading some of this is worse than watching the ignorant media. The auto makers are receiving a LOAN. Read the details for crying out loud.

    It also seems a lot of people think the auto makers can simply tell the UAW “no” and continue on with business as usual. Obviously people that think this way know even less than I do about the UAW/Big Three relationship not to mention the legalities of such. You guys honestly think that if the 3 could tell the unions to go fly a kite and keep the difference in labor profits that they’d just blow it off because they are already “rolling in the dough”? I rather doubt it. I am by no means an expert in union laws but can assure you it isn’t a matter of just saying no to them. Again they’d have been replaced ages ago if it were possible.


    I was in a union a long time ago….couldn’t wait to get from under that thumb, but anyways, when a union such as the UAW goes on strike or say they were locked out, their union brothers (Teamsters) basically stop shipping to & from the company where the worker shutout is happening. This can cripple just about any business in about a day. There is only two ways to get rid of the union, have the union workers vote it out or have the company go bankrupt. I do not see the first happening, so I would guess that there will have to be huge concessions or the inevitable is going to happen…. GM & Chrysler have been given this opportunity, I hope they don’t blow it. One sure way to ensure the economy turns around is to stimulate the economy on our own. I don’t like the idea of waiting for the gov’t to give me money to spend, unfortunately, that’s what has been created already….. talk about a handout

    big G

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22450
    #731035

    This Knox guy is an idiot, he compares a K Car (80’s) to a Accord… and a Pinto to a Civic…. he loses credibilty with that sensationalizing, must be a real reporter. It’s like comparing a Toyota Celica to a 300C, I will take the 300C…..

    big G

    b-curtis
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 1438
    #731061

    OK, it a loan. I know how to read. Sorry that I am a bit skeptical about this loan, and the future loans they get starting next year. I haven’t read the details so can they discharge this loan if they file bankruptcy? That is a good question because the chances are still very high that one on the companies will go bankrupt. If they can discharge it, then it is a handout.

    Of course you can’t just one day say good bye to a union, but as G said, you can break union contracts in bankruptcy. But instead let’s give them a LOAN so they can continue on as is. The company can’t say no to the union? Maybe the UAW is a worse evil than expected. Yes, the companies do get back into a corner by the unions (yes, they really are evil!) I bet when the union demanded that the Big 3 is required to have thousands of employees getting full pay and benefits for literally doing nothing, the companies probably figured that just giving it to them instead of causing “labor issues”. Go read some info on the Delphi bankruptcy. I believe they wanted to get out of the horrible contracts with GM and labor. I think I read that they just can’t keep paying the grass mower $65 an hour. There are advantages to doing it and you can see issues that Delphi is having with it. But when a company is in trouble that is the route to go. Not begging the government for a loan.

    I guess I can say it again but it won’t sink in so this will be the last time. All three companies are not going to go out of business. One or maybe two will file bankruptcy. If that happens they reorganize and hopefully come out the other side a better company. You dump the waste and keep employees that are worth it (well not at their current salaries). Maybe you still have the union, maybe you are able to become non-union. I bet if you told the employees the company is going under and they are losing their job, or if the union is gone they can keep 50% or 75% of the employees and make comparable wages as Toyota (including profit sharing), I bet that would be attractive to the good employees. I’m sure the guys who sleep on the job won’t like it. All the other stuff I have mentioned will happen where employees in a few years will get pick up by the others that are in business and the foreign guys. And check again how many jobs were lost last month. The country would survive if one went completely out of business. Twenty percent unemployment? Where the heck did that math come from?? I read that it would jump to…9% nationally. Sure, a lot higher in Michigan and a few other states. The worst I read was 1 out of 10 jobs (I guess that would be 10% if I did my math right) is related to the car industry (14 million jobs), but that including stuff like car washes, which leads me to believe that is probably propaganda from the UAW to scare up some money.

    That line that the highest average income workers. That will always blow my mind.

    What is the government’s job? Geez, I think you have said it before. The government doesn’t have any business telling the auto industry how to do their job. It has been a few years since college for me so I am a little rusty, but I am pretty sure the US is capitalistic economy. The government shouldn’t be pushing us closer to a socialist economy…ok, I will stop now.

    b-curtis
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 1438
    #731064

    Quote:


    This Knox guy is an idiot, he compares a K Car (80’s) to a Accord… and a Pinto to a Civic…. he loses credibilty with that sensationalizing, must be a real reporter. It’s like comparing a Toyota Celica to a 300C, I will take the 300C…..

    big G


    G, I guess I read it that the Accord and Civic are still here and the others are not? I guess I didn’t take it as he was comparing a K car of the 80s to the Accord of today? Or, he could just be an idiot too.

    b-curtis
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 1438
    #731100

    Two more thoughts and then I will be done with the subject.

    Ratt, that village you live in isn’t too far from Eau Claire. Twenty years ago Eau Claire went through the same thing that is happening nationally. When Uniroyal closed up shop, everybody freaked. How was Eau Claire going to make it losing the highest paying job in the city? The entire city is going to collapse. Guess what, it didn’t. Once the big union jobs were gone, new companies came into town. Lots of jobs. In fact I think there is something like 1,000 jobs at the old plant. Yes the wages are lower, or should I say more in line with what they should be. Do you think all of the new auto plants that have been built over the years were built in the South and not in Michigan was due to the weather? Why would you open shop where you have to deal with the unions. I think Michigan would be a better place. Aren’t most of the biggest suppliers also in the Midwest? Anyway, it would take awhile but everything would recover.

    Finally, just as you guys keep saying that people need to get over the perception that imports are better quality and Rams have bad transmissions, autoworkers need to move past this bad feelings they have for the company. Others have said it but this us versus them between the company and union is killing the company and no loan/handout will save them in today’s global economy (sure, they do fine when the economy is rolling, not so good when it is not). I know they are basically brainwashed by the union that they need the union to keep their job. Fifty years ago, yes. But times have changed. Most companies treat their employees well. You lose your job based on performance (Imagine that!) or because of layoffs. Ratt and G, you both work in the industry and are non-union employees. How the heck can you keep your jobs? Isn’t general practice for companies just to fire people to get their kicks? No, most companies know you need a good working relationship with the employees to be competitive and successful. If you don’t like how you are treated, you find a different job. Granted it is tougher for autoworkers to up and get another auto job if they don’t like theirs since the factories are not near each other (I think there are opportunities in the South, well not right now), but heck my uncle was one of those union guys at Uniroyal. He took a non-union job at Uniroyal in Alabama and worked there until he retired a year or so ago. Guess what, he was non-union and managed to keep his job! Imagine that. All the foreign guys is good for employees. More competition and more opportunities for the worker.

    I know the unions are making concessions. They make sure everybody knows they are sacrificing. You don’t ever see the press release from the union that announces how happy they are that they have forklift drivers making $75k more than the national average, and of course they don’t want people to know that because people will be disgusted and turn against “protecting the union”. And when things turn around, they expect to get more than they gave up. I do wonder what those guys think. Do they think they should be earning that for driving a forklift? Do they laugh all the way to the bank that they get paid like that? Do they have any idea what the average salary is, or do they think all forklift drivers are paid that? Are the rest of us suckers for being at-will employees? If the unions started to care more about the company as a whole instead of just seeing how much they can get for their members, maybe they could help fix the problems. If not, it will always be a struggle.

    Ok, this was fun.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22450
    #731111

    So he is saying, rebadging something is why the big 3 are failing, because there is no modern day Pinto ??? Interesting….

    big G

    b-curtis
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 1438
    #731054

    I’m not sure what rebadging is, but yes you nailed it. That is amazing. That is exactly what he is saying. The Pinto is the problem! It is remarkable an idiot like that can stay in business for so long. Apparently you don’t need to be too bright to be a supplier to the auto industry.

    riveratt
    Central Wisconsin US-of-A
    Posts: 1464
    #731133

    Quote:


    The worst I read was 1 out of 10 jobs (I guess that would be 10% if I did my math right)



    Yeah your math sounds right. But you need to also add in the current unemployment rate to the new rate do you not? Currently I think the national rate is like 6.7%. Let’s round it up to 7% and add the 10% to that. Wow all of a sudden we have 17% unemployment. Still not 20% but who is to say it will only be 10% affected by the auto workers? As their money is taken from the economy others will suffer. Less money spent at movies, diners, hotels, stores, and all the other stuff will surly mean a smaller workforce is needed correct? Maybe my assumption is completely off base but I see 20% unemployment being reached quite easily. Maybe it will only take a couple years to recover, maybe not. I doubt a college course can predict that. But even if it is two years who wants to wait two years with 20% unemployment? Not me!

    And still no one answered my question about the government. What is their job? To collect taxes? Anyone?

    chris-tuckner
    Hastings/Isle MN
    Posts: 12318
    #731289

    Ok, at 17 to 20% unemployment…remember who was elected? Remember the promised social/economic programs and the redistribution of wealth that was mentioned? Where is this money going to come from now?

    Just curious.

    b-curtis
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 1438
    #731355

    Chris, don’t buy into the 20% unemployment. It is just fear mongering. All three won’t go out of business. I’m afraid people don’t understand the concept of bankruptcy.

    Oh, and they will not be required to pay the “loan” back if they go bankrupt, so this is purely a bailout. When a person (or any other company)goes in for a business loan, they need to prove they are going to be able to pay it back. Plus if a person is about to file bankruptcy, no bank on this planet is going to give them money knowing the person has no way to pay it back. This “loan” does nothing of the kind. It’s not like they are taking this money and putting it into the company to make it more competitive. It is just free cash to keep paying out (just like why they are currently burning through all of their cash reserves) until the Messiah is in office and magically fixes everything, or they finally file bankruptcy. So basically they are taking tax dollars, giving it to the companies, then the companies can turn around and continue paying those huge pensions and salaries which burned up all of their own cash, and then they will file bankruptcy and the tax money is gone. They are taking tax money from everybody else and giving it to the bloated, artifically-inflated pensions and salaries. I’m sure that forklift operator making $25k a year is excited that his tax money is going to forklift operators making over 100k a year. Chris you didn’t need to wait until the new year, the redistribution is already happening.

    I thought this was an interesting read. I believe the Heritage Foundation is pretty right winged, which surprised me that they rip one of their own. I guess they just know a bad deal when they see one…Bush’s Awful Auto Bailout

    I’m sure someone can poke holes and argue against their statements about legalities, but this really sums up what should have been done.

    Quote:


    Worst of all, though, is that this bailout just won’t work. Put simply, if the goal is turning the automakers around to achieve long-term profitability, this bailout is clearly inferior to a straightforward reorganization under Chapter 11 of the bankruptcy code, which so many large corporations have relied upon to escape dire financial straights and return to profitability. A bailout actually makes achieving this goal less likely.


    Darn it, I said I wasn’t going to post anymore…I guess I am just trying to get through work today!

    rivereyes
    Osceola, Wisconsin
    Posts: 2782
    #731386

    man.. I just had to erase a huge amount of my thread.. though writing it was probably good therapy to be able and say what I REALLY think… Im sure it would suprise some people.. but it wouldnt please anyone I spose… sooooo… I must take a deep breath and start again….
    just Iraq is estimated to cost 12B per month.. and I hear about what if this auto money is being poured down a rathole? at LEAST the rat hole is in the USA… at least there is a CHANCE it will help our economy….. could it be a total waste? I doubt it… is it the best thing to do? I doubt it…
    though to be fair in regard to the Iraq war costs a fair amount of that 12B per month for Iraq ends up in USA too… sadly we STILL have to pay for it ALL just like ALL of these bailouts are unpaid for too…. and what about ALL that money handed to the Banks? They admit they cant or wont account for any of it….

    I hear comments about union guys.. lets not forget bout wall street wackos who have stolen a LOT of our money….. one goofball even had a 50 billion ponzi scheme and he is under house arrest in a mansion!!.. what if YOU stole even a hundred bucks? where would YOU be? house arrest in a mansion? house arrest in YOUR house? nope…

    OK someone is paid too much to mow grass? sure thats a problem… but if you wanna talk over paid just HOW do they justify paying MILLIONS to people so incompetant that they destroy not only their company but the US economy as well? I mean the grass mowers are a bargain!.. the grass DOES look better when they are done.. and the economy is actually stronger….(a bit).. and Im NOT defending (or atatcking) Unions.. Unions evolved because businesses were so predadory that they felt they could take advantage of their workers… the businesses brought their own curse upon them.. now you have two powerful sides that seem to have little interest in working together.. this is a problem… IF management had been smart enough to work with their employees as partners from the start which is what the foreign automakers have done for a LONG time they wouldnt be in THAT fix…

    riveratt
    Central Wisconsin US-of-A
    Posts: 1464
    #731389

    Quote:


    Oh, and they will not be required to pay the “loan” back if they go bankrupt, so this is purely a bailout.



    Wrong, plain and simple. If the companies getting the loan do not meet specific requirements by March (IIRC) they must pay it all back immediately. Of course if the money was loaned with no collateral that is no ones fault but the lender. No different than any consumer loan. But it will be payed back one way or another.

    I still find it interesting we keep debating the failed business plan when that isn’t what the root problem is. It is indeed a huge problem, the unions, but it isn’t what caused this specific problem!!!!!

    Who here has tried get a loan lately? Banks simply are not lending. Again we have had numerous people turned down with credit ratings in the high 700’s. Last week in one day we had a 760 and a 780 declined. (The 780 would have been approved with 35% down payment!) So how do the unions factor into this?

    People keep P&Ming about the Big Three as if they are the bad guys for asking for help. Did you people choose to look the other way when BILLIONS of dollars were given to the banking industry with no guarantees of ANYTHING! People either choose to ignore that or they get all of their information from the national media.

    I take it no one figured out why we pay our government BILLIONS of dollars yet either huh? Must be just to get rid of our extra cash!

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 63 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.