Save the big Three?

They may have more reliable cars now, but they made pieces of junk when they had a monopoly. Once they got some competition and people started to choose the imports over the junk, the big 3 had to get better. Even a couple years ago Ford was busy building Excursions as big as a house and the imports made more fuel efficient cars. When people start going to the better fuel car, then the Big 3 again finally step up. That is the beauty of competition. It isn’t foreign advertising. You can advertise you have a great product but if it isn’t, it won’t stay around long. They earned the reputation. Heck Dodge still has a bad reputation that their transmissions are junk (say my Ram just rolled 60k and my transmission is clunking a bit now ). They will probably never shake that. Too bad one of the Big 3 doesn’t step up and be the leader instead of a follower. Maybe they wouldn’t be in such trouble. Then they could live of the reputation that the imports have or the reputation Ford has with its trucks.

People should buy what they want, not something to support a union. If you want a Camry because you think the quality is better, perceived or real, then by all means get it. Don’t blame people buying what they want as a reason the Big 3 are in Big Trouble. They put themselves in that position all on their own.

natural systems is what I know best.. “protectionism” doesnt work well there… like the case of the DoDo which became extinct quickly once real competition showed up… if we buy American just to buy American then we are setting ourselves up for failure… we need to make American products the BEST products to buy… the most innovative the most reliable… the coolest… we need management and workers to work together to make this happen…. THAT is success… if you have to live in a zoo just to survive your not going to have much of a life… whats up when we rescue the banks… and all these auto companins need is loan.. and tha banks wont give it.. either there is something wrong with the automakers business model and the banks dont want to loose money… or there is something wrong with the banks.. if its something with the banks then WHY are we giving THEM money? if its the automakers.. then we shouldnt give them money either… they will just be a money pit… we have a myriad of problems right now and there isnt ONE simple answer.. we need a whole LOT of answers… lets hope we find them… and we need a whole lot of hard work.. and we need a whole lot of courage or at least confidence in our US system… if WE give up.. WE are done…

The illusion that foreign vehicles have better quality stems from the years when they really did. As was pointed out earlier, the Big 3 tend to be reactionaly instead of progressive when it comes to changes. 20 years ago the Big Three cars started falling apart around 100,000 miles. The last car (1991 Plymouth Voyager) I got rid of, I sold with 245,000 miles on it, and my buddy that bought it from me used it for another 2 years with minimal work needed on it. My current 1999 Voyager is up to 185,000 miles, and has nothing other than brakes and standard maintence on it.

But people still remember the early minivans, that had transmissions crapping out by 100,000 miles. The perception of good/poor quality can last a LONG time.

I do believe we need to help the Big Three, but with loans rather than just giving them money. Losing THAT many good jobs in our economy would be a crushing blow against getting the economy back on track. But at the same time, rewarding people who can’t or won’t plan for the future is just dumb.

To my knowledge there isn’t a single one of the three asking for free money. I’ve been watching on and off all day and not once did they ask for a grant. So the notion they’d get the money for nothing is far fetched and delusional yet it keeps getting spread around.

As I mentioned I am in the auto business. Average about 50-60 hours a week for the last 15 or so years. Not much people post about reliability one way or the other is news to me but I do know BS and perceived reality when I read it. As the imports catch up with the gadgets Americans want their reliability suffers the same as an American car. It’s like comparing a wheel borrow to a Rhino. Both carry loads but there is simply more to go wrong on the Rhino. Bottom line there is nothing imported in the auto world that is any more reliable than what is turned out in Detroit.

People keep saying that the big 3 need to turn out more fuel efficient cars but they instead make what they want. That isn’t actually all that true. People bought SUVs and pick up trucks as fast as they could be made as recently as 1-2 years ago. It is the consumer that decides what the manufacturer makes and not the other way around. The fact that banks ran out of money and stopped lending almost overnight is the sole reason the housing market, 401k, and the auto industry crashed. Back up a few years and fill the lots with little pop can cars getting 45 MPG and by and far they will sit there and sit there while consumers buy what they demanded, SUVs! It’s like eating healthy. We all know we should do it. What if tomorrow all the grocery stores, starting tomorrow, only stocked lettuce, bananas, and tofu. Would you simply say ok and eat it or find a store that has what you want?

The auto makers do NOT have a failed business plan as told to us by the politicians (Like their business plan isn’t flawed??) and the media. The big 3 were not slower to change to more fuel efficient vehicles either. Fact is dang few imports even build any type of a truck. And those that do, Toyota and Nissan, are in dire straights of those models as well. Nissan is closing the doors on the Titan and the Toyota sales are down nearly 40%! Again this perceived reality is amazing to see repeated by everyone.

Sure would be nice if we tried our best to buy American but the consumer has spoken loud and clear. We do not want to pay an additional 20-40% for products. Walmart proved this point over and over for how many years by supplying us with cheaper Chinese stuff. Cheap pricing and high paying jobs do not go hand in hand. It is a vicious cycle and now that it started don’t expect it to change anytime soon.

Ideally I’d like to see the big 3 file for bankruptcy. That would effectively break the UAW and allow them to begin building cars without having to pay people twice the average wages regardless if they are at work or not. The problem is the 1st one to file will have a heck of a time selling cars again as The Public gets extremely weary of buying a car from a company feared to go under before the car is wore out.

What about all the money the credit card companies are geting? We should cherge them 20% intrest on all that and pay off the national deficit.. That would make sense.

This is pretty good. I guess I missed the part where they said they are losing money because they make such strong and reliable cars. I guess they will say pretty much anything at this point to try to get some money. Big Lie from Chrysler CEO

Even GM says their quality sucks. They really will do and say anything to get their hands on that money.

“While we’re still the U.S. sales leader, we acknowledge we have disappointed you,” the ad said. “At times we violated your trust by letting our quality fall below industry standards and our designs became lackluster.”

As someone who just had to put a $3500 head gasket in a $50,000 Cadillac with only 80k miles on it I have to say that it was and is my last American car. I have a 1991 Accord with 200k that doesn’t burn a drop of oil and rattles less than the Caddy. Perception for some, reality for me. The Caddy will sit in the garage until it is paid off enough for me to catch up with its declining value and then I will trade on a 2-3 year old Honda that I will plan on running into the ground without having to put huge money into on a regular basis. GM, Ford, Chrysler have failed me and many others and have EARNED the mess they are in. I am a self employed Realtor and am going on 2 months without a paycheck, where is my bailout? If I can’t make it, I am on my own. That’s the way America is supposed to work. It needs to stop now and let it work itself out. Just my frustrated .02!

I have a Jeep with 262,000 miles I can sell you… original Engine and Transmission….. Last I checked, the Honda dealer in town here had a service department too. Compare apples to apples, A Caddy to an Accord, is like comparing a 20 foot Ranger to a canoe….. Geez, what can break, the oar ???? Realistically, I think you can say the lenders that Realtors worked with 4 and 5 years ago, are really the ones who have failed all of America, the Big 3 and many more companies, are bound to fall in their wake….

big G

Remember all the profits made on these foreign cars leave the U.S.A. Sure would be nice if we tried our best to buy American but the consumer has spoken loud and clear. They all want big incomes for them selfs and want the people that make things for them to work for nothing. as far as breaking the U.A.W. and other unions every body knows what happend when the traffic controllers Union was busted. we all know what happend the last time so many people were laid off wages went from 15.00 to 18.00 dollars an hour to 5.00 an hour and remember history repeats it self. Also look on the web tomorrow and see what unions and a state that does not have right to work law is doing for the people that work at wall mart!!!!!!

Right on RiverEyes

You must not read the news the U.A.W. already has given back a lot.

In a “Global” economy, you cannot have one economy doing all the “inventing” IE Investing, R & D, testing and gaining acceptable standards, only to have the “competition” then copying, tweaking and mass producing, with cheaper, sometimes forced labor and think you can them “compete” with them on a global basis for consumer dollars. Unfortunately, that is what has been happening for decades, driving American companies either out of business, or out of country. I am not only talking about the automotive industry, it applies to most areas, minus a few defense companies. A level playing field has to be the first priority. How do we do that ? Somebody smarter than I has to come up with that one….

big G

All the American car companies in the past 25 years have made bad decesions making thier autos the way they did. It wasen’t long ago when most everything that left the assembly lines had problems with the transmissions, motors and all the extra gismos that came with them. The car compaines also made too many vehicles that were ovesized then came the higher prices in gas. All this time the Japanese and European companies were making autos that were reliable and were the right size. They introduced them to the American public and they seen they were reliable, cost a little more at the time like Volvos and Mercedes but for the investment alot of people who could afford it decided in a more reliable auto. As time went on and people seen that these cars didn’t break down as much and were getting higher milage they chose thier best investment for the money, imported autos. 10 years later and alot of satisfied previous buyers of imported autos they rebought them again because its a good deal. The only way I see it is the big three have to make a reliable auto and stick with making them every year, don’t make autos that break down otherwise the sales of foriegn imports is only going to get bigger then it is. With a major investment like an auto is people are going to buy new imports or a good used one because its the best bet for thier money. To be honest I’ve had too many detroit vehicles break down with faulty transmissions etc. and its left me with a bad impression. I just bought a used honda civic when the gas prices were around $3 and it runs like a gem. I talked to a mechanic befor I bought it and he said the only thing wrong with this year was a defective timing belt, he said change that and you can easily get 300,000 miles out of it if I changed the oil regularily and put new spark plugs in it when they needed to be changed. Would I buy a used American auto again, maybe if they had a good reputation and got 35 miles a gallon with minimual maintainence. Its going to take awhile for me to regain confidence in American autos again, sorry to say but its true.

Should the American tax payers bail out the big three. I’ll use the terms giving them a loan with very stiff regulations and guidelines and just because it involves so many jobs being the only reason. I don’t want to see any American big business go under but until they can make a better vehicle like thier competitors are doing they better think about making the best vehicle they can and mean it for thier own good,,,or no more loans, ever. They know how to make real reliable vehicles and always have known but because of making bad decesions in the past now they are treading water and they don’t like it. If they have any sense they will start making and keep making just as good of vehicle as thier competition every year or what else can you expect buyers to do, buy less of an auto? The way I see it its thier own fault. The people that make the bigger important decesions involving overall expense are the ones to blame, not labor beings its only 10% of the cost of building the auto, fact. All they have to do is make the right decesions and make a good auto and they will sell themselves, even if thier a little more expensive, until then thier just going to have to find a way to tread water.

SO you think the big 3 has problems?this is what happens when half mil people get laid off in one month. From hybrids to SUVs, unsold carsBy Nichola Groom Nichola Groom – Sun Dec 7, 4:01 pm ET
Reuters – Toyota automobiles are lined up in an holding lot at the Port of Long Beach in California December
LONG BEACH, California (Reuters) – From pricey luxury sedans to popular hybrid cars, automobiles made overseas are stacking up at ports and parking lots around the United States as supplies far outstrip demand amid the nation’s worst auto market in more than 25 years.

At the Long Beach port near Los Angeles, Toyota Motor Corp vehicles including Prius hybrids, FJ Cruiser sport utility vehicles and Lexus IS 250 luxury sedans are being stored on a vast construction site that will one day be a new container terminal.

The site became a gigantic parking lot when Toyota and Daimler AG’s Mercedes-Benz asked the port for space to store thousands of vehicles that dealerships have not been able to take on due to sluggish sales.

“It’s unusual that they would be here longer than a few days, but that’s the situation now,” said Art Wong, a spokesman for the Port of Long Beach. “They can’t move it through their pipeline fast enough so they are asking for additional space while they keep their vehicles here more than a few days, and in some cases more than a few weeks.”

The port has not counted how many additional cars were being stored, but Wong said Toyota has leased an additional 23 acres of space while Mercedes-Benz has leased about 20 more acres.

Nissan Motor Co Ltd, which brings its cars in through the neighboring Los Angeles port, had been talking to Long Beach about leasing space, Wong said, though that arrangement fell through.

A Port of Los Angeles spokeswoman, Theresa Adams-Lopez, said Wallenius Wilhelmsen Logistics (WWL), which operates the terminal that brings in Nissan’s vehicles, had shifted vehicle storage to another state.

Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary said the company last increased its space at the Port of Los Angeles in February.

“As a normal course of business, we’ve got cars moving out of there all the time to various points across the country,” Zachary said in an e-mail.

WWL, which is based in Norway, would not comment on specific customers, but said auto inventories were building up across the United States.

“We are seeing cargo buildup at ports of entry on both coasts as well as at other inventory points such as factories and rail yards and dealerships,” Christopher Connor, the head of WWL’s business in the Americas, said in a statement.

Other ports are also seeing a buildup of cars, though not all of them are leasing large tracts of land to automakers. The San Diego port, which brings in Honda Motor Co, Volkswagen AG and Mitsubishi Corp vehicles, has about 14,000 cars on its property. That’s about 2,000 more vehicles than usual, according to spokesman John Gilmore, who said the additional cars belong to a range of manufacturers.

COLLAPSING DEMAND

Global automakers have been sideswiped by the collapsing demand for new cars and trucks. A market slowdown that began in the United States has spread to Europe and Asia.

Detroit’s embattled automakers have been pushed to the brink of failure by the downturn and are asking the U.S. Congress for a $34 billion rescue package.

But the sharp decline in sales in October and November blindsided even the industry’s better-performing manufacturers like Toyota and Honda.

Toyota said on Friday that it was cutting North American output by idling factories that produce vehicles such as the Camry and Corolla, the Japanese automakers’ top-selling cars.

Toyota spokesman Mike Goss said inventory had been pushed to “unacceptably high” levels that would take 80 to 90 days of sales to clear.

That is still less than the 115-day supply of inventory on average for General Motors Corp, Ford Motor Co and Chrysler LLC, but it is double Toyota’s inventory levels of just a year earlier.

The surge in inventories has been a small blessing to some in the industry. Automobile processors, who wash, repair and accessorize imported cars before they head to dealerships, said revenue from storing cars is helping offset the market’s overall sluggishness.

MidTexas International Center Inc, whose Midlothian, Texas, facility processes vehicles for Kia Motors Corp, Mazda Motor Corp and Toyota’s Lexus, expects to break even this year despite the dismal auto market because automakers are paying for cars to sit on its lots for longer.

“The inflow of vehicles is a lot greater than the outflow,” MidTexas President Randy Denton said. “That helps to offset the loss of income from the vehicles that we’re not processing.”

(Editing by Carol Bishopric)

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I have a Jeep with 262,000 miles I can sell you… original Engine and Transmission….. Last I checked, the Honda dealer in town here had a service department too. Compare apples to apples, A Caddy to an Accord, is like comparing a 20 foot Ranger to a canoe….. Geez, what can break, the oar ???? Realistically, I think you can say the lenders that Realtors worked with 4 and 5 years ago, are really the ones who have failed all of America, the Big 3 and many more companies, are bound to fall in their wake….

big G

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Very well said. I have yet to go to a new car dealership that doesn’t have a service department. And all that do also employ more than an oil change tech or two. Perception of reality people, nothing more! To G’s Jeep I’ll add my Mustang Gt with 192,000 miles, my F-150 with 176,000 miles, or my Contour with 145,000 miles. I’d have no problem hopping into any of them now (Save for the GT, it’s in winter storage) and drive anywhere I need to go. Thinking you can simply buy an import and never have repair troubles again is 100% naive and nothing more.

I’m still amazed at the people that think auto makers forced over sized vehicles down our throats. How stupid does that sound? Look back to my grocery store analogy. Americans buy what they want, not what people think they want. Shut the BOOB tube off for a few days and do some honest research and see why this crisis is before us. If you think it is because of something you saw on TV or read in the paper you are WRONG! Fannie and Freddie were farces that were government puppets. You can take it from there.

I also get a kick of these IDIOT politicians sitting all high and mighty telling the auto makers how to run a business. What? Take advice, forcibly, from the US Government on how to run a business? What a joke. These people elected to Congress are by and far a bunch of incompetent jokes. Career politicians know absolutely zero about running a business and obviously even less about running a non corrupt government. The very truth is I’d be extremely happy to see the auto makers and the union leader stand up and tell Congress to stick their ideas right up their…Well you know.

People want this so called recession to go away? Turn the news off. Stop reading the papers. Just say screw the recession! When that is all we see and hear then that is all we’ll get. Pardon me but I flat out REFUSE to take part in the recession. I spend the same percentage of my income on things I normally do and feel if more would do the same we’d have this problem corked in short order. I refuse to sit at home staring at the BOOB tube while freaking out and keeping a death grip on my money. That will not save the auto makers nor anything else.

Back to the bail out think of this. The 700 BILLION has already been set aside. P&M all you want but it is getting spent, most of it inappropriately. Might as well try and get as much of it to go to companies that employ the masses and that were not the reason this fiasco began in the first place. There ain’t no unapproving the 700 after all. I wish there was, but it ain’t happening.

not that I like to focus on the negative.. but speaking of a “so called recession” is not being realistic… last month over 500,000 jobs were lost… ask those people if the recession is real… its real to them… if you have a job throughout the recession then its all gravy… I know a lot of people right now on the verge of having no work to do.. a lot of people are sitting idle or doing not too much… there is an oppressive feeling that is “quiet”.. “too quiet”…. sure all the hype yammering day in and day out through all the media is NOT helping… really I wish they would tone it down a bit.. and why cant they start talking silver lining along with the doom and gloom? people need hope and optimism… some people have plent.. but others needed it manufactured and shipped to them…
as for the automakers bailouts and all the others… may God have mercy on us all.. we have politicians handing out money to businesses in a wholesale fashion… the whole thing gives me a queazy feeling.. none of these big businesses feel the need to contribute ot OUR welfare.. so Im not really sure just how this is going to help US…. they get by doing just a little for their employees as possible… I can understand why for business reasons… but they have destroyed the value of loyalyt and trust and I think that they will suffer for it.. but so of course will we…

The union folks may say us non-union backers want them to work for nothing. No offense but maybe the pay should be more in line with the job being done. Here is an article from 2005 about wages. Reading this leads me to believe no bailout unless the unions are broken up. This is ridicules…

For those who don’t like to read, here are some highlights:

Average salary is $26 an hour (60k a year).

I like the quote from Delphi going bankrupt that they “can’t continue to pay $65 an hour for someone to cut the grass”. National average is $8 an hour for this position.

Guarantees that 12,000 workers will get paid with full benefits for doing nothing.

A Delphi forklift operator makes $103,000 a year when the national average is $26,000. (so again, I should buy American to help protect a guy making $103k to drive a forklift???)

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Massive job cuts at General Motors, America’s largest carmaker — coupled with the bankruptcy of Delphi, America’s biggest autoparts maker — have provoked predictable handwringing from liberal pundits who worry that America is “losing its manufacturing base.” But the wrenching change now buffeting the auto industry defies the usual press formulas. Just listen to Steve Miller a turnaround specialist who is steering Delphi’s restructuring process. He exploded the myth of America’s “endangered” union manufacturing jobs at his October press conference announcing Delphi’s move into Chapter 11: “We cannot continue to pay $65 an hour for someone to cut the grass and remain competitive.”
Take grass cutting. As defined by the current United Auto Worker contract negotiated with the “Big Five” (GM, Ford, Chrysler, and top parts makers Delphi and Visteon), an auto “production worker” is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets. In the real world, these jobs would be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, these jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average $26 an hour ($60,000 a year) plus benefits that bring the company’s total cost per worker to a staggering $65 an hour.
But at least the grass cutters are working for their pay. The UAW contract also guarantees that 12,000 autoworkers get full wage for doing nothing. On the heels of Miller’s straight-talk, the Detroit News reported that “12,000 American autoworkers, instead of bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank.” These aren’t jobs. And they certainly aren’t being “lost” to China.
“We just go in (to Ford’s Michigan Truck Plant) and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper,” The News quoted one UAW worker as saying. “Otherwise, I’ve just sat.”
The coming months will be painful for many American autoworkers. Accustomed to a certain lifestyle, they will see their wages cut in half, jeopardizing second homes, college tuitions, and car payments. One blue-collar Delphi worker interviewed by the Detroit News makes $103,000 a year operating a forklift and fears the consequences if his pay is drastically reduced. But many Americans will ask how a forklift operator felt entitled to a six-figure income in the first place (according to Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average forklift operator wage in the U.S. is $26,000).
It is an opportune time for political leadership to step to the plate and speak with candor, but the signs are not encouraging.

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To be fair to the American auto companies what autos in the past 15 years run as long as the imports with as many or fewer problems in them breaking down, Id like to hear of some so if I need to buy another used auto I can make a choice, Id buy American in a heartbeat. Im not against buying an American auto, im just being resouceful and I need to know. I’ve worked on cars since I’ve been a kid and can do most things when repairing them, I’ve got most the tools. I bought a used Nissan van with over 200,000 miles on it and it got 20 miles a gallon in town, Id still be driving it but I hit a deep rut in a gravel road and it knocked the oil filter off and the motor siezed up, got it running again but it started knocking and I don’t want to blow the engine up because I want to overhaul it so I can drive it again, or Id still be driving it. With 200,000 on it the valve cover still isn’t leaking any oil and alot of autos do with this many miles on it. The used Honda I bought a couple months ago isn’t leaking any oil around any of the gaskets and its got 230,000 on the motor. I know saying these type of things dosen’t do any good for sales of used cars for the auto makers here in America but it does make them think they have to make a more reliable auto. Around here the sales of used imported autos has been good and if you can find one it will sell. What alot of guys are looking for here is small pickups like toyota, nissan etc. because the bodys are falling apart and theres still nothing wrong with the drivetrain, you have to drive them into the ground befor they are towed to the salvage yard, thier good transportation. Imports here have a higher resale value then American autos and are in demand. With all the used imports available around here with a good reputation its going to take awhile to change minds, you have to look for one in your price range but thier here. I was offered a Nissan pickup a couple months befor I bought this little Honda civic for $1000, then I hit that hole in the gravel road then I stopped driving the Nissan van so not to blow it up. I went back to find out if the Pickup was still forsale and the price had risen too $1,400 and I could have bought it for that price but I didn’t want to spend the money, I held out and found the Honda civic and bought it. Is there good used vehicles to be boughten besides imports because next time I will buy one of those.

Could it be that beings imported new autos having a good reputation people are buying those. Could it be because of all the reliable used imported vehicles that are already here people are also buying those. Its time for me to talk to a few mechanics to see what American autos run as long with the same repairs as imports. American auto companies make alot more items then autos where they get thier profit from and they are concerned about quality now and I hope they stick with it.

Congress is going to give the big three money but with strict guidelines so I’ve heard. American engineers are some of the best in the world, top notch, I say let them build American autos and the parts necessary to make them run along time, not forever but enough for people to think they are getting thier moneys worth. I think its time to be concerned with quailty coming first and profit margins coming behind that. If investors don’t like thier returns coming from thier investments let them find a new gold or gem mine because quality comes first. Money profits have gotten in the way of quality for too long, profit also comes in an auto that can be drivin longer with fewer problems not just in green cash that can be held in the hand.

I wonder if people will look at the current outlook for the imports or just keep assuming they are doing fine. Toyota truck sales are down 40% YTD. Toyota just leased another 30 acres near some rail yard to store all the cars stacking up that dealers cannot sell. Honda, Mitsubishi, and Nissan? Same boat. So when people are done being convinced by congress that the big three have business plans that do not work they might also notice the imports are no better.

Maybe at that point people will finally come to understand that if you cannot get financing you cannot buy a car. Banks do not discriminate based on brand. But hey, let’s keep blaming Ford, GM, and Chrysler. After all they are obviously the ones responsible for Fannie and Freddie.

RiverRatt,
I’ll start by saying I drive a GMC Yukon and am very happy with it (except the 320.00 to fix my power window during deer hunting on a 2006 truck).

You keep eluding to Toyota and Honda leasing all this land to store the cars they can’t sell. Big freaking deal. There are lots all over the country with new cars just sitting on them (including Ford, GM and Chrysler).

Maybe I’ve missed it, but I haven’t heard of Toyota or Honda trying to belly up to the bar for the free handouts (I’m sorry, I mean government loans).

I’ve heard several others respond that it isn’t a free handout. That is BS too. Just answer this.. What happens to a loan when one goes bankrupt? Do you honestly think we as tax payers will see the repayment of these loans?

The Big 3 sell a ton of cars so there are plenty of customers for all, based on quality, MPG, or whatever the consumer is looking for. The lack of a “quality” vehicle is not the issue here. If the economy and everything was humming along like it was a few years ago, the Big 3 would still be decent shape because there is plenty of demand for their lines. No need for a sound business then. The economy and credit crunch is hurting all companies (take a look at some of the big companies that are laying off a lot of people right now) and all car companies, not just the Big 3. Some companies are “put together better” than others to handle these downturns. Apparently the European and Japanese are (Still haven’t seen anything about them needing to be bailed out? Maybe they are also??). The big 3 are not. Mismanagement and drowning in horrible labor contracts are bringing them down. Even with Toyota huge drop in sales, I believe they will still turn a profit this year?

Mossy, I can recommend a Dodge Stratus as a used car. Very solid and reliable. It will do everything the import will do. Of course, it won’t pull your boat like a truck, maybe that’s why Americans love SUV’s and Trucks… and why overall imports are “more reliable” they have just recently gotten into the pulling market, and are not faring too well… just a thought….

big G

Thanks G, Dodge has always been a pretty good reliable car. I pull a jon boat so I don’t need a pickup truck. I don’t want to sound to anyone like im coming off against anything America builds, but when it comes down to the bottom line its smarter to build as good a car or truck as the imports, not so it runs forever but our moneys worth. I know quality has been in the front for the last 4 years Id say so things are going right there. I wonder if there will come a time when all those good running autos will make it harder to sell more new ones, whats the trade off when your trying to keep everyone busy, building autos that break down sooner then later isn’t the answer. Im not real worried because this will all pass and I just heard on the news that Ford won’t need any money, if they do then, until spring sometime, maybe the others will follow. Are the auto workers going to loose thier retirement if they do go through bankruptcy? I can see some of the money going to the retirement funds instead of just an overall bailout on everything they want.

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You keep eluding to Toyota and Honda leasing all this land to store the cars they can’t sell. Big freaking deal. There are lots all over the country with new cars just sitting on them (including Ford, GM and Chrysler).

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My point is simple. To listen to the news and to many in here the tone is “The big 3 are in trouble! They should be more like the imports!” Insinuating the imports are not in trouble. Hogwash. If car sales continue as they have recently for another 10-12 months imports will be every bit as hard up as the big 3. The lots I’m referring to are not dealerships but places like rail yards. Union or not, MPG or not, big or small, import or domestic. If they are not selling the company will go bankrupt! Not sure why people have such a difficult time understanding that. Recently Nissan has announced plans to discontinue the Titan. Why? They are sick of making something they cannot sell.

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Maybe I’ve missed it, but I haven’t heard of Toyota or Honda trying to belly up to the bar for the free handouts (I’m sorry, I mean government loans).

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I’m not sure even our completely corrupt government is stupid enough to bail out a foreign company. I’m likely wrong in that assessment but I’d be a bit surprised non the less. And there again based on comments like yours someone too lazy (think most Americans)to research for themselves would assume that the import companies are in fine shape. Even Wally Mart, with arguably the strongest business plan, will go bankrupt in short order if no one buys from them. If Wally’s sales dropped off 40-50% for 12 months they’d be closing stores all over the world. Again not hard to figure out. Thankfully for Wally Mart people don’t yet need to go to a corrupt, government subsidized, banking system to finance purchases. Have I asked before why no one is interested in looking at the real problem?

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I’ve heard several others respond that it isn’t a free handout. That is BS too. Just answer this..Do you honestly think we as tax payers will see the repayment of these loans?

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Believe what you want but the government and media (I know two ultra reliable sources) are calling these loans. Will you or I ever see the benefit of repayment? Heck no! We knew that the moment the 700 BILLION was authorized. That money is spent and most of it irresponsibly.

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What happens to a loan when one goes bankrupt?

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Ah, my favorite question, thank you! What happens to a loan when one goes bankrupt? Again I’d say to ask Freddie and Fannie! They loaned Americans money far in excess of the value of what was being purchased. They hoped to make it up by raising interest rates that would inflate ones mortgage payment to 3-5 times its original amount. What happens? Banks go bankrupt, citizens go bankrupt, and the domino effect leads this trend into all other industries relying on finance. And ultimately the money vanishes.

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Maybe I’ve missed it, but I haven’t heard of Toyota or Honda trying to belly up to the bar for the free handouts (I’m sorry, I mean government loans).

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The Japanese got their bailout on the front end…
Check this out…This was over a year ago…

The Impact of a Misaligned Yen
on U.S. Automakers
U.S. automakers welcome competition from Japanese companies and other international competitors. We believe that competition in a free and fair environment is good for consumers, good for innovation, and good for creating ever safer and more fuel-efficient cars. However, the U.S. government continues to passively accept subsidized imported vehicles from Japanese automakers who are not competing fairly because their government effectively subsidizes its auto industry through the use of an artificially low yen. This policy has led to the skyrocketing levels of auto exports to the U.S. that harm the economy and cost American jobs by giving Japanese automakers an unfair and unearned advantage over American automakers.

The artificially low yen has helped fuel our trade deficit with Japan, which hurts the U.S. economy and gives Japanese automakers an unfair advantage over American automakers. Nearly two-thirds of that deficit, or $56 billion out of a total $88 billion, is exclusively a result of Japanese auto products.

This issue is not trivial or just a technicality. The impact of an artificially low yen on the automotive sector is a major competitive factor in the whole automotive industry: The misaligned yen gives the average imported Japanese car a huge windfall cost advantage over U.S. automakers and other competitors in the market. This ‘yen effect’ also crosses over to Japanese vehicles made in the U.S. because of the high level of subsidized imported auto parts used in their U.S. plants.

A few facts:

With a yen valued at 118 to the dollar, Japanese automakers enjoy an average windfall $4,000 cost advantage per vehicle more than they would if the yen traded at its true value. The overall subsidy Japanese automakers gain for the 2.2 million vehicles they import totaled $8.8 billion in 2006.
The total yen subsidy provided to Japanese automakers in 2006 was $13.4 billion – $8.8 billion for car & truck exports to the U.S. and $ 4.6 billion for imported parts used in American-made Japanese cars.
More than half (52%) of all automobiles manufactured in Japan were designated for export in 2006, exceeding 50% for the first time in 19 years. In fact, even as demand within Japan for new autos is declining, Japanese companies are adding production capacity to Japan-based facilities, reactivating assembly lines, adding workers and postponing planned factory closures as they move to export ever greater numbers of vehicles.
It is time for U.S. policy to place the needs and survival of its own manufacturing sector first. To do so will require the U.S. to demand that the Japanese allow the yen to regain its undistorted value. Japan must be pressed to bring its currency into alignment and trim its excessive currency reserves.

Tuck,
Where did you get that information? Its interesting, not sure I really understand it though.

In a nut, what it means is that the Japanese artificially deflated the Yen so that the dollar could buy “More” giving Japanese automakers an unfair advantage over American Auto makers. It signified for the first time (2007) that Japanese auto makers produced more cars for export than for use in Japan. They basically flooded the US market with autos, not to mention Japanese cars being made in the US with Japanese parts….Basically the Japanese automakers were subsidized by their government…but not really. It created what some perceive to be an unfair playing field within the U.S. (Ya think???? )

Now EVERY auto maker is sitting on the sidelines with inventory up the and no one jumping in to spend their money. This is truly a worldwide event happening before us. It is going to get much, mich worse before it gets better. Hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost as this correction plays out. We haven’t even gotten to a point where the stock market has found solid ground yet, and we won’t for quite some time. Hutch Tech just announces a 25% reduction in workforce. Hutch makes the majority of the disk drive readers for hard drives. This is significant as about 1800 people in the Hutch area have lost their jobs. Jobs that will be awfully hard to replace. 3M announced a large layoff as well. These are Blue Chippers, and the bloodletting is no where near done yet.

Here is a little more of a Global look at things compliments of Bloomberg. I have Satelite radio and listen to a ton of this stuff during the day. Very enlightening. We can cast stones at our auto industry here in the States, and wonder if a bailout is right or wrong…while the rest of the world contemplates getting the WTO (World Trade Organization) involved because U.S. bailout quite possibly might be a violation of International law creating an unfair advantage over other global auto manufacturers.

Rather than post the article here in it’s entirity, I will provide this link for you to review if you are interested. This whole bailout could have global implications, and most likely will.

Tuck, question on the Yen stuff. Wouldn’t import duties offset any advantage of deflating the Yen? Just wondering and that is a good article. As for the layoffs, that really sucks for people losing their jobs. But like 3M said they need to do it to “weather the storm”, but none of these companies are looking for a government handout the get through the tough times. They are still in good enough shape that laying off people will probably be enough to get through. When the economy picks up they will probably hire again. I worked at a company during the last recession that by the time it was all said and done laid off almost 50% of the workers and I didn’t get a raise for 2 years. Companies do what they do so they can survive. If that doesn’t work, the company goes away. They are not sitting in front of congress begging for money. Maybe if the Big 3 were able to just do mass layoffs and not have to deal with still paying all of those benefits to laid off workers, they wouldn’t need to beg either.

Ratt, I’m not sure if you are just trying to be funny or what. I and I guess Buzz hasn’t seen anything about these companies going to THEIR government for a bailout. It would be front page news if Toyota was begging the JAPANESE government for money.

Say Ratt, since Buzz and the rest of us Americans are so lazy to research for themselves, what information have you found showing that the foreign guys are in trouble? I haven’t analyzed financial statement since college so please point me to the information you have research. In the past I did get to do some analyzing of financials between GM and Toyota and you can see the disadvantage GM has based on labor cost and overhead. I would like to see what you have found because the info I have seen shows that Toyota is still going to make money this year, even after huge drops in the operating profit. Early in the year Toyota and Honda were adding market share because everybody was looking for high MPG and seems most went with imports versus domestic. And of course all companies are in trouble if they can’t sell. I don’t think anybody is having a difficult time understanding that or too lazy to figure that out. I think the point is ALL companies are having a hard time but it is the Big 3 claiming that they will go bankrupt without a handout while the other companies are not doing that. Maybe is a year from now they will be in the same situation. Who knows? But they appear to be strong enough to weather the storm. Just like 3M has to lay people off but they are not in the situation of completely failing.

Oh, and get over Freddie and Fanny. I think most informed people know what damage that caused yet the election proved that people don’t care. It is a major factor in all the credit issues thus hard to sell cars. ALL automakers are feeling it. Only three happen to be begging for money, which mean the others are at this point in time are strong enough to get by with just some layoffs, or maybe they know they won’t get a free handout and they end up failing.

I still say no money until the union contracts are ripped up. That is the only way these companies will compete. Otherwise let them go bankrupt (and then get out of the contracts). But it sounds like congress is going to give in. I’m so happy we are going to continue to support $65 a hour to mow the grass.