Alternative heat sources

How many of you have alternative heat sources??? What kind do you have???
What I am looking at is 3 differnt kinds of heat for the house this winter. I am currently running propane and am not liking the price. Last year I think we went through 800 gallons of propane. The house was kept at 50 deg and no one lived here. For those of you with propane…How much do you go through. I just put in 2 new patio doors and am thinking of some new windows to help. Am also thinking of more insulation in the atic.
Now back to the main question since I have confused everyone already.
3 types 1. Out door wood burning stove??? 2. Heat pump??? and 3. geothermal.

Who has what? what are your costs?
I have done the comparison geothermal is by far the most expensive ranging from 15,000 to 25,000. The wood stove and heat pump are about the same and run 8,00 to 9,000. I need real numbers from first hand users not my friend said, or in my case the dealer says…..What is the elec costs?? how much wood do you go through?? I haved surfed the net and seen all the numbers but I want real numbers from first hand users.
Any one… any one?

As for the geo-thermal, if your not going to do any of it yourself you are looking at 25,000 to 35,000 depending on the size of the house, and what you have already installed.

As for wood burners, they are nice as long as you like to cut wood or have somebody around that will give you wood. Another thing to look at here is getting a big enough one so you dont have to split the wood before you throw it in. two advantages there, 1. less time not splitting, and 2. it burns longer while still the same heat output, meaning less wood you have to throw in. I dont have any real numbers on this for you though.

my .02 worth

Stick;
you talking corcoran?

If so, I would guess you could go through 10-12 cords of wood to maintin a 55-60 temp average.

My mon-n-dad had a 2500sqft rambler with full basement, built in the 70s. It had fuel oil burner and during the fuel crisis, dad purchased a large in-house wood furnace. I split 12-15 cords a winter, which averaged about 55 degrees. That averaged between November to March.

We had local resources to cut our own trees at no cost, so it was a no brainer for dad…I cut the wood!

I do believe today, you must have an outdoor furnace, as insurance companies do not/might not insure them in house anymore.
And “buying” wood is not cheap today either. It is time consuming with daily cutting, let alone continuous feeding.
And….
It does dry out a house.

At the fair I picked up a brochure for a forced air solar panel and it is a non profit company fonded by a teacher that charges are determined by income. RREAL I am planning to talk to my wife about doing this for my garage to help reduce the costs of heating. It seems like a great concept and will work at very low temps with the sun shining.

The problem with geothermal is that it is not cost effective in a single residence. The cost even by DIY is so high that you will never regain those costs. My information comes from my wife who is a short ways from her masters in Architecture and she studies into the green ideas. She also works for a firm that did Geothermal for The Bradshaw funeral home in Stillwater. Geothermal is great in large scale but not on a small scale.

Aaron

Not sure how cost effective it is, electric off peak may be an option in your area.

If you decide to go with a wood stove I heard on the news the otherday that St.Croix state park(I believe its this state park) is looking to get rid of a bunch of trees that fell during a really bad wind storm. You have to move it and cut it your self but its free wood. Just a thought.
Sara

http://www.trane.com/Residential/products/HeatPumps/xl19i.aspx

Heat pump, browse this page, I work with a couple of guys that have these units

Stick Boy, I’m in the process of the final hook-ups for an outside corn boiler (self installed). We thought hard over this choice vs. the wood burner. I burned wood for twenty years in the my other house next door and we did not want to handle the wood 2-3 times. Harder to get access to wood these days also unless you have a stock pile of it. We live on 5 acres but our wood all runs along the creek (soft wood. The other thing is if you get the larger stove for larger pieces, then you need equipment to move the wood around the place and into the furnace. If L.P. does not go up, and corn gets to $9.00 a bushel, I calculated I still would save almost $1000 this year. The boiler will heat my home (3900 sq ft), garage, and part of my out building which i had an electric boiler as a heat source. That boiler alone eliminated about $150/mo during the coldest times. I am planning on 5-7 tons of corn usage this year. Its just a nice feeling knowing I have an alternative fuel. As far as the costs of ANY alternative heat source, we MUST move away of our dependency of Foreign Oil or this economy will sink deeper and deeper.
good luck

The Today show just talked about what you are looking for answers on. I bet they will have this on their website if you check it out.

We heat with corn or wood pellet depending on price (pellet this year for sure!), free standing stove in the basement on a t-stat. We love it! There’s a great website forum at http://www.hearth.com, you’ll find answers to various questions there. Good luck!

With Geo you will spend about $20,000 on install for a new house (closed loop)in 2008, The new units are 425%+ efficient. We had $12 gas bills all last winter (2500 sqft)with a 1400sqft basment, (I think the back up kicked in once or twice) Plus you save on electric on off peak and save an air in the summer. The guy next door has a $150 a month budget plan gas bill and just paid off what he owed from last winter. So you save about $1500 a year on this unit by the time you saved on gas and electric is less to run your air in the summer. If the cost of gas and electric stays the same. We know it will not, it will take 13 years to catch up the cost after that your getting free heat.
If you put in this system 6 or 7 years ago it would have paid its self off by now. So that 13 years could be cut in half if prices keep going up.

Ok getting some good answers. I will explain a little more.
First off I didnt no they made and outside corn burner??? any info on that I would consider that as well.
Gary yes its for the corcoran house. Wood is not a problem. The stoves I looked at I can burn any thing in them so in my line of work lumber is easy to find. I also have Places to cut for free and I dont mind doing it but if we are talking 10-12 cords then that may be a no. I also have the equipment to move larger pieces so there is no problem there.

Kirt
I am looking at the heat pumps and was going to talk to you about it yesterday but forgot. Off peek with a heat pump is still on the list just not a trane j/k

The solar panel thing would be good except I dont like the looks. I would assume it works great but just dont want that hanging off the house.

Who says geothermal isnt cost effective in a residence????? where is that coming from??? I have had it priced out for my home and it ranged fromm 15,000 to 25,000 with same equipment just differnt contractors.
At a current rate of 2.38 a gallon for lp if I use 1200 gallons a year thats 2856 plus tax to heat. If I bring that down to 300 gallons thats 714 plus tax a savings of 2142. Using off peak power my elec bill just needs to be less than 178.5 a month an I am saving money. The gallons are just a guess thats why I came here to see what other people thought.
So far I am leaning towards heat pump or geothermal. But now that a outside corn burner was mentioned I am going to look into that.
A side note. Absoulutly no fire stuff in the house. ie corner stove or wood fireplace to help or assist. Thought about those but its not an option.

Kirt
one more thing on the heat pump??? correct me if I am wrong but dont they only work temp wise down to only 5 above zero??? That plays a factor too. Here in mn we spend alot of nights below 0 or close to it????

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Not sure how cost effective it is, electric off peak may be an option in your area.

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***I am in a similar situation but I go through 1400+ gal of propane each year. I have been doing alot of research like you have and I came up with the option of installing a plenum heater in my furnace that runs on off peak electric and backs up to propane(dual fuel). The cost to install the unit and the offpeak sockit is around $1500. The monthly cost will be around 1/2 of my propane bill was to heat for the winter since the break even point on this type of system is around 1.30 a gallon for propance and I am at 2.30 prebuy and it will probably be 3.25 by winter.
These have been around for a long time but with the cost of gas and electic they were not popular until a few years back when gas prices started going thru the roof.
Do anybody else on here have any experiance with this type of system?

Mark
Just got off the phone with some one about the plenum heater idea. I think I am now leaning towards a heat pump. I think I am going to upgrade my furnace which was put in in 93 and add a heat pump. I will be asking about instaling the plenum heater at the same time and go with both if its reasonable. With that what will happen when the heat pump shuts off at 15 deg. the plenum heater will kick in and not the propane. I will also change my water heater to a larger size maybe 100-150 gallon from the 40 that it is and go elec. instead of gas and put that on off peak as well.
So far I am sold on this idea. The price of corn and the wood pellets is getting higher and the savings isnt as good as it used to be so that idea is out. geothermal is 2-3 times the price and wouldnt save me alot more than the heat pump. So this is the conclusion I am coming up with.
If any one else is interested My heating guy does a good job at a reasonable price .A member here too.

Mark how big is your house??? sq. ft. wise?? We went through 800 gallons last year. I owned the house for 3 years and finally moved out here. I am expecting if I do nothing to use 1600 gallons as the water heater is propane too. the wife and I like it a little warmer say 70-72 and we kept it at 50 while no one lived here so I am guessing.
1600 at a current rate of 2.38 and I am sure that will go up as I paid 3.80 mid winter last year thats 3808 plus tax

Its a pretty good sized rambler with a bonus room above the garage. Furnace, hotwater heater(power vented combicore), fireplace and cooktop all run on propane.
When we built 5 years ago I was too focused on the other details of the home and didnt consider the alternative heating and cooling options.
Looking back I would have strongly considered geothermal for the size of the house but since we already incurred the costs of the current system it just isnt an option….

http://www.noritz.com/

Water heater option

And for the Trane remark

I work in the heating and Ac field and I would not go with a heat pump in Mn.. They will only heat effeicently when the temp is above 25 degrees..

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I work in the heating and Ac field and I would not go with a heat pump in Mn.. They will only heat effeicently when the temp is above 25 degrees..

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Just looked at the trane on the above links and they say down to 17 above. Then for another 1000-1500 throw in the plenum heater and there is no need for propane or very little.

What are you sugesting????

And welcome to the site

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I work in the heating and Ac field and I would not go with a heat pump in Mn.. They will only heat effeicently when the temp is above 25 degrees..

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Have to agree with Marbleeye we have a heat pump at 30 degrees outside temp it runs forever, and the air coming out of the registers is barely luke warm.

I am going thru the same deal looking at ways to cut LP costs. After all my reading and studying I really like the Woodgun outside boiler, operates basically like your furnace only burns when heat is called for suppose to use 1/3 the wood of a regular boiler. They aren`t cheap and so far behind in manufacturing it would not be until next June before I could get one if I ordered now.

Tom could you post a link to what you are looking at.

And if possibe give a little more info on your heat pump. Do you have off peak elec.??? does it help your cooling costs??? just some more info to help also what brand do you have???

On heat pumps allot depends on the design of the coils, the Trane one has a different style coil on the condensor that will allow it to work down to 17d oa temps, 20 to be safe, the coils have allot more surface area than your standard coil. Also the indoor a coil needs to be sized one size than typical.

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Tom could you post a link to what you are looking at.
And if possibe give a little more info on your heat pump. Do you have off peak elec.??? does it help your cooling costs??? just some more info to help also what brand do you have???

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Ours is a York 3 Ton aircondtioning and heat pump. We have dual fuel a seperate meter for water heater, heat pump, furnace, anything that produces heat. After Sept 15 all our electric usage on this meter is half price. The heat pump does work well spring and fall that`s it winter forget it. Cost of operating the heat pump your guess is a good as mine. It is set up to switch automatically between it and the LP furnace when temps are to cold. I really don`t know how much it actually runs. Do it allover again I would not waste the money.

Try this link hope it works.WoodGun

Good info thanks for the post Stick