How high is gas going to go?

  • kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #672235

    Quote:


    I’m glad I’m stopping before I get into the economical impact of the fraudulant E85 fuel source, and how it is costing all of us more money in our everyday lives.. hope those of you that have stock in ethanol make enuff $$ before it all comes crashing down in the next couple years!
    I personally enjoy spending more money on a gallon of milk than a gallon of gas.. don’t you? Don’t blame the dairy folks.. their cost of feed has gone up.. they aren’t making any extra money off of it!!
    ok now i’m done!


    I’d love to see why the ethanol is the problem in all this.

    walleye_wisdom
    Big Sky Country Helena, MT (Adel, IA home)
    Posts: 1160
    #672251

    Here is another thought, Wal-Mart turns a bigger profit each year than the oil companies, yet no one is yelling at them.

    Gas is still the cheapest liquid you can buy (minus water obviously, and still is cheaper than most bottled water).

    The thing that is making everyone upset is like stated before, everyone needs this, there is no alternative. Everyone is pointing fingers at the oil companies, but no one was feeling sorry for oil companies when gas was $0.25 and it cost just as much to pump oil then as it does now (adjusted with inflation).

    Like it was said before, there are facts behind this that back it up, and honestly, all the facts point back to the consumers. If everyone adjusted their driving habits and maintenance on their vehicles, the demand would drop(due to better MPG), causing the price to drop. But it’s MUCH easier to point fingers or blame someone else…

    I do not work for an oil company, but i’m a semester from graduating with my BS in Geology so this is a topic frequently discussed.

    Kooty, where ethanol causes a problem is the strain it puts on other products corn is used to make, such as corn syrup, which is in almost everything. The demand for more ethanol based fuel will increase the cost of corn, which will impact the cost of food, which it is already doing. Ethanol isn’t “BAD” but it is thought of as a way to solve our fuel problem, which it really isn’t in the long run, or as we are finding out, even in the short run. Another strain ethanol is causing is farmland, and in turn, hunting land. Farmers are planting closer and closer to fence lines, ditches, ect. to squeeze a few extra bushels. You can’t blame them, but this is cutting down on our hunting and habitat land.

    I am a part-time mechanic also and you should see some of the vehicles that come in, and what i find when doing a normal inspection. Air filters that are so clogged they billow dust when just touched, tire pressures 15-20lbs below manufactured specifications.

    When a new car, or any car for that matter is sold, it should be a law that you are instructed on how to check your tire pressures, and you should be given a tire pressure gauge with purchase. It’s SOOOOOOO easy to do, and saves you money along with safety. Too many people take normal driving for granted…. Low tire pressures not only put you and your cars passengers at risk, but also puts everyone else on the road around you at risk.

    We need an alternative source of fuel, but until that comes, we need a major change in actions of drivers in America. Speed driven, car pooling, servicing our vehicles.

    My one word for American drivers is “ignorance”….Whether it be a lack of knowledge to maintain a vehicle, or just not caring to do so.

    darrin_bauer
    Inactive
    Menomonie Wi.
    Posts: 260
    #672256

    Excellent post, another point about ethanol is that it has a lower btu rating than 87 octane gas. As a result you must burn more of it to go the same distance as you could with gasoline. The government subsidizes the cost of producing ethanol to make it affordable. Ethanol uses fuel to create it, much more than it takes to refine gasoline. Ethanol might make us feel good that we are doing the right thing, but it just doesn’t pass the logic or smell test all things considered.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22418
    #672260

    Tire pressure monitoring systems are now mandated on all 2008 models and going forward. The answer to ethanol taking the corn, is take all the acres out of set aside & CRP and plant crops. Then the hunters (me) get mad, because the pheasants have nowhere to live. It is trying times, nowadays, which have happened in the past. Something will have to give, and it eventually will. Meanwhile, we need to do what we can to survive. Screaming and pointing fingers, will get us nowhere. But conserving what each of us can, yes 1 person makes a difference, will help the situation, more than hurt it.

    big G

    oldrat
    Upper Midwest
    Posts: 1531
    #672275

    until your NOSE BLEEDS.

    wholesale price of gas today 2.81

    add 50 cents and there is your price of gas.

    its enough to make you sick. and now the only decent place in La Crosse ( 6th and Cass) to buy gas is going to be sold to this fool from La Crescent.

    its that he buys the end runs of tankers and then tells you its good gas..

    when you put his gas in your truck shakes as bad as when you use kwik Trip gas. I am driving a truck not a bendix washing machine. Plus you lose about 3 miles per gallon with both the above mentioned products.

    its like they flush the toilets right into the gas tanks.

    and thats how you truck runs.. LIKE….. fill in the blank.

    david_scott
    Twin Cities
    Posts: 2946
    #672276

    Quote:


    David, fuel surcharges right now are less than $35 per roundtrip ticket. Lets hope it never gets to $200.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Business/PersonalFinance/story?id=3838837


    Darrin.. that was something I got off the new the other night, I assumed it was accurate.

    Either way, plane tickets arent cheap. Its a quick way to get there, but they arent cheap.

    eronningen
    Rochester, MN
    Posts: 1885
    #672155

    Walleye Wisdom- My only comments to your post is it seems really hard to believe Walmarts have a higher profit, but maybe your right, I wouldn’t know. But…..I have the choice to walk in there and buy something or not to. You can try to say I have the same choice with fuel but not really. I own a business and need the vehicles to run the business, etc.

    eyejacker
    Hudson, Wisconsin
    Posts: 1890
    #672282

    I would speculate that WW may be talking profit margin which is profit expressed as a percent of revenues rather than profit expressed in dollars. In terms of profit dollars, I am fairly certain the Oil companies profits are greater than Walmart, however, in terms of profit margin it may well be that Walmart is higher.

    kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #672296

    I work in the ethanol industry now, so I find it interesting to see the bashing of ethanol. I can tell you I felt much the same recently as most of you, however after educating myself on this subject, it’s very clear. Corn based ethanol is not the culprit for all of America’s high gas prices or the many other issues the national .

    I don’t have time to debate all the points continually brought up against ethanol. However, here is a small snip it of info for you to “chew” on.

    Pilgrim’s Pride Chief Executive Clint Rivers in a statement blamed new costs on “the U.S. government’s ill-advised policy of providing generous federal subsidies to corn-based ethanol blenders.” [Associated Press, 3.12.08]

    Fact Check: What is not included in Mr. Rivers statement is that a host of factors, ranging from record global demand to poor weather conditions around the globe, are driving commodity prices. Moreover, Mr. Rivers conveniently ignores the processing, packaging, and transportation costs associated with oil prices climbing to record highs near $110 a barrel. In addition, no mention is made of the calculations by Global Development and Environment Institute at Tufts University that estimate the broiler chicken industry specifically was able to save more than $11 billion between 1997-2005 by purchasing corn and feed well below the market cost of production.(1)

    Valero Energy Chief Executive Bill Kleese made the claim that, “Corn and ethanol production and the resulting high prices will impact the world in a much more acute negative way than greenhouse gas emissions and climate change ever will.” [“Valero CEO: corn ethanol worse than climate change,” Reuters, 3.12.08]

    Fact Check: Compared to gasoline, ethanol is reducing global warming gas emissions by more than 20 percent.(2) As the world continues to irresponsibly deplete its reserves of traditional petroleum, new sources like tar sands in Canada must be developed. The conversion of the tar sands into a usable petroleum products produce 300 percent more greenhouse gases than traditional oil production.(3)

    Mr. Kleese goes on to complain about unfair treatment by the media, referencing a “serious attack,” and that “mandates for ethanol use are creating an uneven playing field.” ”All of these programs are just a huge transfer of wealth from our industry to the Midwest farms,” Klesse said.

    Fact Check: According to a report in BusinessWeek,(4) the nation’s petroleum industry is spending millions of dollars, together with livestock and food processing interests, to tarnish the public image of ethanol. BusinessWeek’s David Kiley writes, “Efforts range from funding studies that bash the spread of ethanol for driving up the price of corn, and therefore some food, to not supporting E85 pumps at gas stations.”

    Fact Check #2: According to Milton Copulos at the National Defense Council Foundation, America spends nearly $140 billion a year in military protection of the oil shipping channels out of the Middle East.(5)
    The less than $4 billion spent in incentives to companies like Valero to blend ethanol pales in comparison.(6)

    1. “Feeding at the Trough: Industrial Livestock Firms Saved $35 billion From Low Feed Prices,” December 2007. Starmer, E. and Wise, T. of the Global Development and Environment Institute at Tufts University.
    2. “Updated Energy and Greenhouse Gas Emissions Results of Fuel Ethanol,” September 2005. Wang, M. Argonne National Laboratories.
    3. “Canada’s Toxic Tar Sands: The Most Destructive Project on Earth,” February 2008. Environmental Defence: http://www.environmentaldefence.ca/reports/tarsands.htm
    4. “Big Oil’s Big Stall on Ethanol,” BusinessWeek, 10.01.2007. Kiley, D.
    5. “The Hidden Cost of Oil,” January 2007. Copulos, M.
    6. “The Contribution of the Ethanol Industry to the Economy of the United States,” February 2008. Urbanchuk, J. LECG, LLC.

    Bob Bowman
    MN
    Posts: 3544
    #672301

    Reguardless of the price of gas, I wonder how many people are going to leave the boat in the garage all summer. I work hard, and I play hard. It’s funny, I don’t even look at the pump anymore, I just fill it up when it needs it. I know it won’t be pretty when I need to fill the boat this summer, but I sure as heck am not going to sit at home and wait for things to change with the price of gas. They got us by the shorties, and if I can’t afford to pay for gas with one job, then I will get two. My time on the water is my down time, or my time to decompress, and I will not stop because of the price of gas.

    walleye_wisdom
    Big Sky Country Helena, MT (Adel, IA home)
    Posts: 1160
    #672307

    Eyejacker, you are 100%, sorry i did not specify that in my post. The media and other people just use pure profit to get there ideas past.

    The Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems are a great idea, but as a mechanic i hate them, lol! Too many times people will bring a vehicle in thinking they have tires going flat, but they just aren’t monitoring their pressures and they want that “little annoying light” on their dash to go away…

    eyejacker
    Hudson, Wisconsin
    Posts: 1890
    #672310

    Quote:


    Reguardless of the price of gas, I wonder how many people are going to leave the boat in the garage all summer. I work hard, and I play hard. It’s funny, I don’t even look at the pump anymore, I just fill it up when it needs it. I know it won’t be pretty when I need to fill the boat this summer, but I sure as heck am not going to sit at home and wait for things to change with the price of gas. They got us by the shorties, and if I can’t afford to pay for gas with one job, then I will get two. My time on the water is my down time, or my time to decompress, and I will not stop because of the price of gas.


    That is precisely my philosophy except for the second job part or even the first job for that matter. So with no job, I get to fish a whole lot more! Now that is going to be expensive. What a dilemma! Guess I’ll have to get a predatory loan so I can continue to pursue those big predators of the deep on a full time basis!

    Castaway
    Otsego,MN
    Posts: 1573
    #672323

    I wont leave my boat in the garage but I will give more thought to how and where I fish at this price.Even right now I would love to run down to Red Wing for a day but it is just too spendy for a day run.And if I head out to the flats on Mille Lacs Ill be packing a lunch and staying out there for a while and not just running out there for and hour or 2.If it gets over $4 a gallon I will be trolling cranks out there and back with the T8.If it hits $5 a gallon I will be using the bow mount to get out and fish Muskeys and smallies in front of my place

    Bob Bowman
    MN
    Posts: 3544
    #672332

    Quote:


    I wont leave my boat in the garage but I will give more thought to how and where I fish at this price.Even right now I would love to run down to Red Wing for a day but it is just too spendy for a day run.And if I head out to the flats on Mille Lacs Ill be packing a lunch and staying out there for a while and not just running out there for and hour or 2.If it gets over $4 a gallon I will be trolling cranks out there and back with the T8.If it hits $5 a gallon I will be using the bow mount to get out and fish Muskeys and smallies in front of my place


    Hey neighbor, we can just share the cost of gas, and fish together Just as long as you are not the guy I pulled out of the ice this weekend

    matt_grow
    Albertville MN
    Posts: 2019
    #672359

    I have two questions that I’ve consistently pondered:

    Where and what are the fuel cost’s of war? (JJordan?)

    Where/who are the people researching alternative fuels? Is there a leader? Does the government fund/support any research programs?

    The hydrogen carburator has been invented and works. Who is bringing it to industry?

    I guess thats more than 2 questions.

    Castaway
    Otsego,MN
    Posts: 1573
    #672365

    Quote:


    Quote:


    I wont leave my boat in the garage but I will give more thought to how and where I fish at this price.Even right now I would love to run down to Red Wing for a day but it is just too spendy for a day run.And if I head out to the flats on Mille Lacs Ill be packing a lunch and staying out there for a while and not just running out there for and hour or 2.If it gets over $4 a gallon I will be trolling cranks out there and back with the T8.If it hits $5 a gallon I will be using the bow mount to get out and fish Muskeys and smallies in front of my place


    Hey neighbor, we can just share the cost of gas, and fish together Just as long as you are not the guy I pulled out of the ice this weekend


    Nope that wasnt me.Looks like you are a Muskey guy and to tell you the truth I just dont have the patience for them.If I dont at least see one in the first 30 minutes I just figure they arent biting Me,you and Kooty will have to get together over here sometime and BS over a few

    chomps
    Sioux City IA
    Posts: 3974
    #672397

    This topic will present itself over and over again. Last night’s news had a story about a couple of early retirees who had sold the house to purchase an expensive diesel pusher motorhome (6-8 mpg). They had just set camp coming in from California, you think diesel is high here! Anyway, they said they were going to cut the side trips out completely this summer and stay in the campground all summer. This is one way the costs affect the tourism. I’f I had to guess where super unlead w/10% ethanol will end up at, $3.89. I hope I’m wrong. I think the ethanol industry is catching up with more effecient refineries, I know corn may not be the entire future of ethanol, they will have to learn how to use grass, corn stalks, and other waste materials.

    impalapower
    Madison, WI
    Posts: 939
    #672433

    Quote:


    Here is another thought, Wal-Mart turns a bigger profit each year than the oil companies, yet no one is yelling at them.


    I don’t shop there. But aren’t the prices competetive? So if they are charging a fair price and we are willing to buy from them, who cares how much they make.

    Someone stated the war. Yes the war is costing money, but several get paid the same whether at war or not. Tanks get used in war or at practice during peace. Its understandable that war costs money and it is probably costing us more, but many things used during the war are being used anyway. I just think the numbers are not true.

    impalapower
    Madison, WI
    Posts: 939
    #672438

    Quote:


    The Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems are a great idea, but as a mechanic i hate them, lol! Too many times people will bring a vehicle in thinking they have tires going flat, but they just aren’t monitoring their pressures and they want that “little annoying light” on their dash to go away…


    Thats one good way to help keep your job.
    Most everyone needs the service industry. I’m in HVAC service and even annoying things make you money.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22418
    #672453

    Speaking of Tire pressure monitors, I am in the process of researching purchasing a Nitrogen system for my shop. The valve stems on the TPM system are very sensitive, and compressed air, has a high water content in it, which causes corrosion and renders the valves inoperative. Also, Nitrogen is hardly affected by temperature, so in the fall, when it gets cold, you don’t have the warning light coming on, like you do with air. Kind of funny, people used to say summer or winter air in your tires…. they were right !!!

    big G

    walleye_wisdom
    Big Sky Country Helena, MT (Adel, IA home)
    Posts: 1160
    #672457

    Very good point Big G about the Nitrogen, i know several places around here have started that, and i’m sure it will change to the standard within a few years.

    Big G, any need for a mechanic at your shop… I’d love to live in that area and wrench on cars!

    TimJones
    Lake Osakis,MN
    Posts: 241
    #672459

    Gas prices may be high but at least it is still readily available. How many here remember the 1973 Opec oil embargo against the west. Gas went from 25 cents a gallon to $1.00 a gallon in a matter of 2 weeks, that is the gas that you could get. About 20% of the nations gas stations couldn’t even get gas for a week or two. Those that could get gas would only sell to their regular customers and would not be open on Sundays. The government had rationing stamps already printed and ready for distribution but the embargo ended before it got to that point. That’s when congress mandated the 55 MPH national speed limit. They also would regulate the amount of gas each station could sell so sometimes it would take some hunting to find a station that was still selling gas. We had a family relative that owned a Pure 76 station so we always were some of the fortunate ones to get gas but even then it wasn’t always a sure thing. I remember one time he managed to get an extra 10,000 gallons shipped in but then he couldn’t sell it because he had already sold his allotment for the week.

    impalapower
    Madison, WI
    Posts: 939
    #672523

    Quote:


    The valve stems on the TPM system are very sensitive, and compressed air, has a high water content in it, which causes corrosion and renders the valves inoperative.


    Looks like you guys landed some easy work. The average gas station won’t get the improved dry air just to satisfy a few tires.

    impalapower
    Madison, WI
    Posts: 939
    #672525

    Quote:


    That’s when congress mandated the 55 MPH national speed limit.


    I’d like to know if that would go into effect again.
    It makes sense, but I wouldn’t like it.

    b-curtis
    Farmington, MN
    Posts: 1438
    #672604

    Quote:


    Eyejacker, you are 100%, sorry i did not specify that in my post. The media and other people just use pure profit to get there ideas past.


    Wal-mart is not blowing anybody away with their profit margin either. I think maybe what you meant to say is Wal-mart has the highest REVENUES than any other company. Here is a list of the top ten companies based on revenues and their profits. You can do the math to get to the profit margin. As a side note, I got to say those American car companies are some great companies. Makes me want to run right out and buy American!

      Rank Company Rev (millions) profit(millions)
      1 Wal-Mart Stores 351,139.0 11,284.0
      2 Exxon Mobil 347,254.0 39,500.0
      3 General Motors 207,349.0 -1,978.0
      4 Chevron 200,567.0 17,138.0
      5 ConocoPhillips 172,451.0 15,550.0
      6 General Electric 168,307.0 20,829.0
      7 Ford Motor 160,126.0 -12,613.0
      8 Citigroup 146,777.0 21,538.0
      9 Bank of America Corp. 117,017.0 21,133.0
      10 American Intl. Group 113,194.0 14,048.0

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22418
    #672614

    Looks like Bank of America is the place to be, they are at 18 % profit. By comparison, Exxon/Mobil is at 11.3 % and WalMart 3.2 %.

    big G

    Hawg Lbr
    Sartell, MN
    Posts: 71
    #672806

    I’m not blaming the high gas price on ethanol at all… but you can’t honestly say that e85 production hasn’t raised the price of feed thus creating an increased cost to the consumer… The point I was getting at is that that is not the solution to our fuel problems.. and I think efforts need to be focused elsewhere, or like another poster said, make fuel out of other sources than food!!

    kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #672821

    The price of corn has the least amount of impact on food prices, let alone any other goods in this country. The single biggest factor for all goods price increases is the cost to transport.

    Nobody in the ethanol industry believes corn is the end all solution, but it’s a start down the right path. Insert whatever material you want for corn, switch grass, wheat, dandy lions. If the next primary ethanol resource is for example, dandy lions, then the cost of corn and wheat will also go up. Per everyone’s theory, all our acres will be planted dandy lions instead of corn and wheat. Never mind the world had a major drought overall recently that has severly affected crop production, world wide.

    The ethanol industry continues to take pot shots from editorial pieces like in the recent TIME magazine. No facts, just pure editorial opinions. A perfect example of how we as consumers get lead astray by a “reputable” media source.

    Is ethanol the only answer, no, I believe we need several answers. Wind powered cities, H2O based cars etc… Hopefully with all these combinations, we find a way to eliminate most/all of our need for fossil fuels. I’m guessing when I’m old and my great grandchildren are buying cars, the dealerships lot will look very different from today.

    wade
    Cottage Grove, MN
    Posts: 1737
    #672824

    Quote:


    Is ethanol the only answer, no, I believe we need several answers. Wind powered cities, H2O based cars etc… Hopefully with all these combinations, we find a way to eliminate most/all of our need for fossil fuels. I’m guessing when I’m old and my great grandchildren are buying cars, the dealerships lot will look very different from today.


    I hope to get a zoom zoom flying car like on the Jetsons!

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