Minnesota / Fishing tourneys on the hook.

  • jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #1255563

    From today’s Pioneer Press:

    http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_6455134?nclick_check=1

    Minnesota / Fishing tourneys on the hook for DNR permit fees
    Agency’s move upsets contest organizers
    BY BRIAN BAKST
    Associated Press
    Article Last Updated: 07/24/2007 10:42:59 PM CDT

    As director of the Minnetonka Classic Bass Tournament, Larry Krohn loves handing the big checks to the people who reel in the biggest fish. Last month’s prize pool was over $30,000, including the $9,400 snagged by the top-catching twosome.

    Krohn’s mood sours at the thought of another check he’ll have to cut before his next event: a new $400 fee to the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources for a tournament permit. He’s already paying a smaller fee for the Lake Minnetonka Conservation District, the city’s bill for park use and the insurance policy required by the local sheriff’s department.

    “After 15 years of running this, my level of frustration is mounting every year,” Krohn said. “Every year it gets worse and worse in terms of the things you have to do. It’s going to be enough of a hassle for some tournament directors that they aren’t going to do it.”

    Next week, Minnesota’s DNR begins imposing the highest fees in the nation on fishing tournament organizers. They’ll range from $120 to $1,000 depending on the number of participants and whether fish are taken offsite to be weighed – costs almost certain to be passed along to anglers via higher entrance fees. The permits had been free.

    Agency officials say they merely want to recover the cost of issuing event permits, pegged at $108,000 annually. But the move upsets competitive anglers, some of whom see the fees as an assault on their pastime and worry they will be the final straw for small tournaments struggling to stay afloat.
    It’s a debate that’s come to Wisconsin, too.

    Officials there are refining a proposed tournament fee schedule after one sank last year amid concerns it was excessive. Andrew Fayram, a fisheries policy analyst at the Wisconsin DNR, expects the next plan to split regulatory costs between competitive anglers and contest organizers.

    Beneath the fee fight is a deeper dispute over water use.

    The spread of tournaments – traced by some to competitive fishing’s increasing TV presence – has stoked questions about the sport’s possible strain on fisheries.

    Vern Wagner, who has been active in Minnesota tournament fishing for two decades, wonders if the fees are a covert attempt to discourage contests.

    “If this was 30 guys in canoes, there wouldn’t be a problem. It’s the fact that a bass boat cost $35,000, so accordingly somehow we’re economically profiting,” Wagner said.

    Terry Peltier, a member of a DNR citizen panel that recommended the fees, denies trying to curb tournaments.

    But if fewer tournaments is the result, Duluth angler Dave Zentner is all for it. He views fishing as a recreational escape and is bothered by corporate sponsorships attached to many tournaments.

    “I still want to puke when I look at an outdoor channel and see guys grabbing a fish out of a tank and running it across a stage like they’ve just won the Boston Marathon,” said Zentner, a former national president of the Izaak Walton League of America. “It just turns me off.”

    The Minnesota DNR issues roughly 600 tournament permits per year. Broadly speaking, the agency requires permits when there are 30 or more entrants for open-water contests and more than 150 when iced over.

    Al Stevens, a fisheries program consultant for the agency, said permits help the department manage where tournaments are held and make sure popular lakes don’t get overused. The cost of processing permit applications and compiling after-event reports grew more than sixfold in the past decade. The citizen panel recommended a fee to replace dollars currently drawn from a fund fed by regular fishing license fees.

    Under the new system, it will cost tournament organizers $120 for an ice-fishing permit; $400 for open-water events with more than 100 people and an onsite fish weigh-in; $500 for mid-sized contests where fish are taken offsite; and $1,000 for tournaments with 100 or more entrants and offsite weighing.

    Stevens said Minnesota’s rates are unrivaled. For instance, Vermont charges a flat $50 fee, and Washington, New Mexico and South Carolina are in the $25 range. Many other states charge no fees.

    Mickey Goetting, Minnesota BASS Federation conservation director, said the fees will be especially cumbersome to groups that put on multiple-tournament leagues. The federation would rather have seen the DNR establish a “tournament stamp” that anglers could buy at a nominal fee with their license that would get them into any event.

    Stevens has concerns of his own.

    He’s betting some organizers will limit the size of their fields to avoid having to get a permit and others will just try to fly under the radar.

    “I’m afraid of the backlash,” he said. “That’s just bad for fish management. When we lose sight of how many tournaments there are and where they’re at, it could lead to more conflicts at lakes. That’s not what we want.”

    Fee Schedule

    Minnesota’s Department of Natural Resources has established fees for organizers of fishing tournaments in cases where a permit is required. Permits were formerly free. The fee schedule that takes effect Aug. 1:

    $120 for an ice-fishing contest with more than 150 participants.

    $120 for an open-water contest with fewer than 100 participants and an onsite weigh-in.

    $400 for an open-water contest with more than 100 participants and an onsite weigh-in.

    $500 for an open-water contest with fewer than 100 participants and an offsite weigh-in.

    $1,000 for an open-water contest with more than 100 participants and an offsite weigh-in.

    Jeremiah Shaver
    La Crosse, WI
    Posts: 4941
    #593762

    and so it begins for MN

    It’s amazing all the crap we go through up here when the rest of America seems to embrace bass fishing. You sure in heck don’t see this anywhere south of our borders.

    blue-fleck
    Dresbach, MN
    Posts: 7872
    #593765

    Quote:


    and so it begins for MN

    It’s amazing all the crap we go through up here when the rest of America seems to embrace bass fishing. You sure in heck don’t see this anywhere south of our borders.


    Damn Yankees…

    scottsteil
    Central MN
    Posts: 3817
    #593769

    I just got the mailing yesterday stating the same thing. I think anyone who applied for a permit last year got the same mailing. That $400 is pretty darn steep, especially since most tournaments don’t make money.

    col._klink
    St Paul
    Posts: 2542
    #593797

    Quote:


    But if fewer tournaments is the result, Duluth angler Dave Zentner is all for it. He views fishing as a recreational escape and is bothered by corporate sponsorships attached to many tournaments.

    “I still want to puke when I look at an outdoor channel and see guys grabbing a fish out of a tank and running it across a stage like they’ve just won the Boston Marathon,” said Zentner, a former national president of the Izaak Walton League of America. “It just turns me off.”


    I know a whole lot of guys are going to slam me for this but, I could’nt agree more!

    I have never been a big fan. All for the mom and pops kind of stuff but the “Pros” I am just unsure about. There are a lot of pros and cons on both sides…..

    Jack Naylor
    Apple Valley, MN
    Posts: 5668
    #593800

    Will have to keep abreast of this and see what the repercussions will be.
    Jack..

    Jeremiah Shaver
    La Crosse, WI
    Posts: 4941
    #593805

    What’s wrong with getting excited about suceeding at something you are passionate about?

    I’d love to have a civil convo w/you anti’s to try and understand why you care so much about something you care nothing about?

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #593807

    Not caring about tournies does not mean you don’t care about the fish, the fisheries or maintaining the quality of the on the water experience.

    FYI – I’m am NOT anti tournament. I have fished and will likely fish tournaments in the future.

    I am however very aware of a growing sentiment coming from fellow anglers that do not fish tournaments that are DECIDELY anti-tournament.

    If tournaments are turning off non-tournament anglers in the numbers that I’m perceiving… tournaments are in trouble.

    Jeremiah Shaver
    La Crosse, WI
    Posts: 4941
    #593813

    Right – and tournament fisherman don’t?

    I just want to hear the legit reason’s why tournament fishing is so bad, and then try to understand them that’s all.

    Quote:


    If tournaments are turning off non-tournament anglers in the numbers that I’m perceiving… tournaments are in trouble


    I agree James – thus like I said – I’d like to understand why. Secondly Like I said in my 1st post – you don’t see this in other parts of the country – Why is that?

    waterfowler99
    Midwest
    Posts: 1514
    #593817

    Quote:


    Not caring about tournies does not mean you don’t care about the fish, the fisheries or maintaining the quality of the on the water experience.



    couldn’t agree more, however,the guy who care’s about fish, the fisheries, and maintaining the quality of on the water experience—-is a taxidermist not that I have a problem with getting stuff mounted, but some people do. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

    col._klink
    St Paul
    Posts: 2542
    #593818

    Me personally…….I always wanted to grow up and be a “Babe” or a “Hank Parker” or a “Jimmy Houston” most kids have dreams of playing some sort of pro ball…….going to see the earth from a long ways away.

    Well I played so much ball for competion it made me sick and I turned into a huge crab! Playing for all the wrong reasons. I had a very poor attitude. I did and said some things I wish I could take back. I always felt like I not only had to fight against not only the other team but even my teamates to be the best to get noticed. Well I got noticed and I pissed it all away.

    This is how I see fishing tourneys.

    But I just do not know enough about tourneys. I know that sounds bad. But that is how I feel. It is nothing personal against any one person or company. I simply think like many things now a days they are another thing that has out grown its britches in my opinion. The fees being set by the state on MN I would argue is 1 example of that.

    I am not trying to say that guys and gals that fish this things are bad people nor are the companies that support and pay the way for these events.

    Maybe I need to go out with a real pro or a guide to see it through someone elses eyes.

    I think there is absoulutely nothing wrong with being pumped to do anything outside. You can rest assured that when it is time to start tossing decoys I wont be able to sleep for the first week and I will burn all my sick time when the northern birds start making thier way to my area.

    I can feel that passion.

    If there is a pro that is willing to take me out to “Pound” the water I would jump at the chance to see what it is really like.

    Jack Naylor
    Apple Valley, MN
    Posts: 5668
    #593819

    I’d have to say, I know quite a few Tournament fishermen, and overall they DO care about our great resources. They have taken their fishing passion UP a few notches and compete against other highly competitive anglers. There is a lot of enjoyment in the preparation, and the successes.

    what is probably true is, is that there are really only a few people out there that give all us other fisherman a negative rap. whether it is tourney guys or the casual angler. Just about all of us really respect the resource, AND eachother.

    Jack.

    col._klink
    St Paul
    Posts: 2542
    #593820

    Quote:


    Quote:


    Not caring about tournies does not mean you don’t care about the fish, the fisheries or maintaining the quality of the on the water experience.



    couldn’t agree more, however,the guy who care’s about fish, the fisheries, and maintaining the quality of on the water experience—-is a taxidermist not that I have a problem with getting stuff mounted, but some people do. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.


    I can see your point.

    But like anything else it is a part time job. My uncle runs a great shop and I started to help to make a little extra $$$$$$ We both cringe a little when we get a huge ski or eye into the shop. Last week we got a 23″ smallie from a guy. First thing out of my unlces mouth to him was that would have made a pretty replica. This coming also from my thoughts. And a couple years ago I killed a couple pike over 40 to mount. I was ripped hard on this site for that. And it opened my eyes. Its been a long time since I have kept a true trophy. But I have the pictures to prove it. And when I get the money I plan on getting some repicas made……………

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #593821

    Agency officials say they merely want to recover the cost of issuing event permits, pegged at $108,000 annually.

    To me, it’s just a new tax or fee, whatever you want to call it. I have a hard time believing it costs the state that much to review and issue permits. I also have a hard time believing it is more difficult or expensive to issue a permit for a large FLW size tourney compared to a small tourney. It would seem to me that a flat fee regardless of tourney size would make more sense. Something in the area of $15-25 dollars. Either that or just do away with the permit process all together. Problem solved.

    -J.

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #593823

    Quote:


    Right – and tournament fisherman don’t?

    I just want to hear the legit reason’s why tournament fishing is so bad, and then try to understand them that’s all.


    Am I conflicted in my feelings regarding tournaments? Heck yes. I like fishing them. I hate the way a few anglers take what could be a fairly pure experience and turn it inside out and how that paints all participants in a bad light.

    I have said this many times… It is not about sound reasons based on biology or economics. If that was the case there wouldn’t be an issue. It is about winning the battle of public opinion. And tournament advocates are blowing that all to heck by responding with reports stating economic impact or studies that show the vast majority of the fish lived after weighin.

    We need to be winning hearts… instead We’re trying to win arguements with data. Tournament advocates might have the facts to back each and every point you’re trying to make and you’ll still lose. Take a look around… the fight is being lost. And not slowly.

    I’m going to go out and put my neck on the chopping block here. I’ll take my bruises like a man so here goes… tournaments have just enough “bad apples” fishing each event to give everyone in that event a bad reputation with the non-tournament fishing public. The majority of tournament anglers are fantastic people and respectful boaters. However, when I think of all the bad interactions I’ve had on the water over the last decade the vast, and I do mean VAST majority of the bad experiences which ranged from unbelievable rudeness, swearing, bullying, attempts at intimidation to win a spot, unsafe boating, excessive speeds, blowing through no wake zones, etc., nearly every instance was involving a tournament boat. I avoid fishing or guiding during tournament. Trust me, I can hold my own on the water… I don’t let anyone get by with anything if I feel they’re trying to pull some garbage. But in the end I’ve adjusted my behavior and I do whatever I can to fish on non-tournament days.

    So please, send me another economic impact study so I can feel good about that tiny percentage of tournament anglers that have soured my personal perception of the same tournaments I would actually like to fish.

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #593826

    As a side note, I’m kinda surprised that fishing “Contests or Tourneys” are even allowed at all in this state. Let’s face it, pretty much falls into the category of wagering or gambling. (gaming) An activity highly taxed and regulated. You are basically putting your money up, with no guarantee of any return. And then someone or some organization “rakes” a profit in running them.

    -J.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22456
    #593831

    I really do not think it is fair to lump all casual anglers, into one pot and say they do not care about the resources, as much as a tournament fisherman. I for one, have never bounced a bass or walleye off the side of my boat or boat deck, because I flipped it out of the water, so it wouldn’t get off before boated. Just like I know the couple of guys I see on TV doing it, do not represent all tourney anglers. I can see this thread getting ugly in a hurry. Please choose your words carefully….. read it twice before you hit SUBMIT.

    big g

    mille-lacs-guy
    Chaska, MN
    Posts: 313
    #593843

    If it costs $120 for a small tournament with 75 teams that works out to about a $1.60 per team if the tournament director passes the cost through which I’m sure they’ll do.

    I fish tournaments and am willing to pay a few extra bucks to the State in order to do so. With $3.00 a gallon of gas I hardly think a $1.60 is going to break the bank. If is an FLW tournament and it is a $1,000 fee because of off site weight in large field, etc that works out to about $6.67 per team based on a 150 boat field. About the price of a shad rap. Big deal.

    If I have to pay another couple of bucks to do what I enjoy doing it isn’t going to kill me.

    Just my .02.

    mossboss
    La Crescent, MN
    Posts: 2792
    #593844

    Quote:


    I really do not think it is fair to lump all casual anglers, into one pot and say they do not care about the resources, as much as a tournament fisherman.

    big g


    Big G, I agree with you completely.

    Now, what if I said, I really do not think it is fair to lump all tournament fisherman, into one pot and say they do not care about safe boating and courtesy, as much as a casual anglers.

    That, really, is always my biggest issue in these debates. It always seems OK for anti-tourney people to lump everyone in with the few bad apples, but for the casual anglers, the bad apples are always the minority.

    The other thing is, there is so many kinds of tournies. Pro level events, regional events, local events, club events, bunch of guys getting together on a Saturday events, tough to lump them all together.

    The_Bladepuller
    South end
    Posts: 745
    #593849

    James stated it very well. Compare the numbers of tournament anglers vs the number of casual anglers. Iknow from running pointing dog fie;d trials and having served as an officer of the state field trial fed. that the DNR sees the casual user as just as valuable as the hard core person.
    REMEMBER THAT WINNING AN ARGUEMENT ON IDA MEANS SQUAT. IF YOU DO NOT WIN THE ISSUE IN ST. PAUL, YOU LOSE!!!!
    I also feel that it is not the duty of other user groups. that is the phrase you will hear when talking w/ the DNR, to pay the costs of tournaments. The true cost should just be paid. In field trials we deducted the “dog tax” from the purses.

    Brian Hoffies
    Land of 10,000 taxes, potholes & the politically correct.
    Posts: 6843
    #593850

    Want the tournament debate to go away?

    Have no tournnaments at the following lakes……..

    Minnetonka
    White Bear
    Forest Lake
    Vermilion
    Mille Lacs
    Leech

    If you have people who can afford property on those lakes you have people who can afford to complain, and will be heard. It’s not about what is good for the fishery, it’s about what is good for the landowners and the conservation groups. After the demise of tournament fishing the next thing will be to limit the hours of use on the lakes. Once they do that they can say “look hardly anybody uses that ramp” then they will get rid of the accesses.

    If you don’t like what is happening now, you are goona hate it here 15 years from now.

    As long as the DNR is funded by the general fund they are forced to listen to the politicions who are forced to listen to the voters………in a perfect world.

    You will not stop these guys until we get control of the DNR, which won’t happen until we control the money. They lied and twisted their words on the lottery funding to the DNR. We have got to get the dedicated funding bill passed, in a pure form, with the money going to the DNR with private citizens sitting on the board for spending.

    urine, moan and cry all ya want, until you control the money you got nothin’.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22456
    #593871

    Moss, that’s what I am saying. Because you see a tourney guy on TV flipping bass into his rig, does not mean they all do it.That’s why I caution against painting with a broad brush, and not choosing your words carefully.

    big g

    mossboss
    La Crescent, MN
    Posts: 2792
    #593879

    Quote:


    Moss, that’s what I am saying. Because you see a tourney guy on TV flipping bass into his rig, does not mean they all do it.That’s why I caution against painting with a broad brush, and not choosing your words carefully.

    big g


    Just curious, but what’s wrong with flipping a fish in? It makes the fight last a shorter time than netting them, which is probably better for the fish.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22456
    #593888

    I am talking about the 100 mph retrieve, then 8 feet from the boat, flipping it to HOPEFULLY land on the deck. (which, IMHO is not the ideal way to land a bass you plan on returning unharmed) Sometimes they don’t land on the deck. Somtimes they hit the side of the boat, the console or go clean over the boat. That in itself is another discussion.

    big g

    bradg
    Posts: 507
    #593893

    I am just a casual angler, I have fished one small local tournement a few years ago with 50 boats.

    Now, I am with James and a few others on this one, I see nothing wrong with tournements, and I have nothing against tournements. It is the few people that give the entire crowd a bad name that can irritate me. IMO it is the tournements that bring out the worst in these FEW bad apples. Now i am willing to say that 99% of tournement anglers are stand-up sportsmen and sportswomen, but it is that 1% that gives them a bad name.

    Another thing that I don’t understand is that organized tournements are getting people out on the water and enjoying what they like to do, and theses people all have the right to be there by purchasing a fishing license. So if there weren’t tournements, many of these people would still go out and go fishing whenever they get the chance. So whats the big deal? They’d be on the water somewhere anyways.

    One other question. Someone else mentioned winning peoples hearts to get them to believe that tournements are an ok thing, so my question is, DO any of the larger tournements orginizations give to charities? I was just curious, and if so what organizations to they donate to?

    jhalfen
    Posts: 4179
    #593895

    Quote:


    DO any of the larger tournements orginizations give to charities? I was just curious, and if so what organizations to they donate to?


    FLW donates a bunch of $$ every year to the Fish America Foundation. These monies are raised through ticket sales for raffles that are held at our pre-event rules meetings.

    Jeremiah Shaver
    La Crosse, WI
    Posts: 4941
    #593907

    Quote:


    DO any of the larger tournements orginizations give to charities? I was just curious, and if so what organizations to they donate to


    The Local MSBC gives a % to fight Multiple Sclerosis.

    Our small Wednesday night Jerkin’ Lips Club gives a donation to a different food pantry each year and our Federation Nation club adopted a highway which we clean twice a summer.

    Most organizations try to give back in some way, shape, or form.

    docfrigo
    Wisconsin
    Posts: 1564
    #593912

    Ok, here is my neck on the block:
    On the flip side, maybe the tourney guys should imbrace this fee system. 1) It is not a lot of money. 2) By understanding the reasoning for the fee system, it would show cooperation and progression rather than butting heads–in the end working towards your favor. 3) Tourney fishing is a great sport, but seems to be having its share of growing pains and bad apples, like James said, winning the public’s hearts is the real battle. Every tourney guy should realize that just by being a “tourney guy” you have placed yourself in an elevated position in the public eye and now you represent your sport, the good apples have to be extra good to offset the few bad apples. This fee could be a step in the direction of further progressing the sport. From what I know of state fees, it’s not going away and they could have set the dollar figure much higher . I’d accept this offer and further your sport by removing the bad apples and unethical behavior.

    Jeremy

    das_bass
    Mound, MN
    Posts: 332
    #593915

    I have fished Pro/Am tournaments as an amateur for the last 10 years. I have seen a few instances of people in the tournament doing something that made other people upset, but I generally see more non-tournament people doing things like running through no-wake zones WAY to fast. The thing is, those boats don’t have big decals on them that advertise they are a Pro fisherman. Or they see the person that blew threw the No-Wake area was someone they know, so they can forgive them. You definately see a double-standard out there, with the Tournament poeple being held to a higher standard than the people who aren’t in a tournament boat. Every tournament I have been to in the last 5 years has made it a point to tell all the participants to obey all laws, and to show the highest level of sportsmanship, as there are people just waiting for a tournament fisherman to do something wrong so they can complain about it.

    I have also never been almost swamped/tossed from my boat by a tournament fisherman, and most certainly have by pleasure boaters.

    Oh, many tournaments give money to charity too. Some of the tournaments I have fished in, ALL the money goes to charity, except for expenses (like getting a permit would be).

    Pig-hunter
    Southern Minnesota
    Posts: 600
    #593929

    First let me say that I have fished a few tournaments in the past and will continue to fish a few so I am not against them.

    But what I believe sours people with tournament anglers is the attitudes and makeup of some. Like anything, a few bad apples spoil it for everyone. Fishing big tournaments is all about having lots of money and everybody knows it. For many normal people out there it is about impossible to afford to fish tournament trails without either losing their job, or having their wife cut their seeds off.

    Lots of guys like said in the article, see tournament fisherman as a bunch of spoiled rich dudes tearing up the water and pushing and shoving their way around the lake. THAT is what makes people mad.

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