No New Taxes…..But…..

User fees for licenses and permits are going up. From today’s St Paul Pioneer Press. (Minnesota)

New Law Reaches Into Many Pocketbooks

J.

Just think what the economic situation would be in this state if it wasn’t for the outdoorsman/sportsman. It’s too bad we have to grab our ankles everytime the state needs more money.

How true. Well said BF.

Can anybody explain to me the difference between tax and fee? They’re both 3 letter words that mean more of your money is being collected to cover an expense, incurred by us or them. It really makes no difference who’s responsible. Now, that’s the general, emotional consensus. More money!

Question: With the average Americans retainable income approaching 45%, it’s clear that the US can’t continue being the US by incurring more taxation. However, fees are getting tagged on so much that it’s making little difference. The only thing it’s truly heading toward is the limiting of choice. If it means enough, you’ll pay it. If you can’t afford it, you’ll either grumble a lot or find a way to cover the expense.

The solution is simple. As long as the government is controlling the money, 3rd party spending will continue and taxes and fees will have to reflect that. So, if it’s costing more, simply generate more. If your sporting activities are worth it, take off-season time and so something to cover the expense. If you can produce the money needed, the price hike has no impact on you or your enjoyment of the activity.

Reality check: If I offend anyone here, I apologize but I ask for the truism to be recognized.

I tallied it up and if you did everything but pay for your child to go to the MN Zoo, we’re talking $19.00 extra. What’s $19.00?

An extra tank of gas? Slow down. Accelerate more gradually. Can you save a tank of gas over one year?

One less family jaunt to a fast food joint.

One to two less pizzas.

A week’s worth of lunches and vending snacks.

Less than you’d get for clearing out the garage and having a sale on all those “I’ll use them someday” items.

A handful of video rentals.

Did your annual pay increase exceed $19.00?

If $19.00 heats the temper, a little reflection/assessment MIGHT be in order. There’s zillions of things we can do about it…………..but grumbling isn’t going to the problem gone. I don’t like the increases either but in the economic spectrum, my only alternitive is to produce more than my wage limitations would dictate. I’ve been working for 24 years now and if $19.00 is a big deal, I need to stop following my own advice and get some help!

come on there PUP!… your from Wisconsin!… ya gotta calculate money loss in how much beer ya can buy!.. or no longer buy!…. then you can see how serious this IS!!!

BEER Did someone say beer! Now this is getting a little personal.

Kid, you made a U-turn right there after the second paragraph and I completely lost you. Let me see if I can run through your post quick and try this again:

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Can anybody explain to me the difference between tax and fee?

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Yes, I can. A tax is a type of fee. More importantly, a required fee levied on citizens or members of a body to pay for government expenses. Fee is a much broader term that (generally) includes any type of payment.

In the case currently under our microscope, a tax would be levied upon citizens in a general sense (that some are exempted is a matter for a different debate). The user fees proposed are avoidable cost incurrences associated with some privelege.

While that may sound clear-cut, it is obviously not. The reason for this grey area is a result of those priveleges being instituted through government-run monopolies. In what is a uniquely governmental paradox, they are spending money in the interest of ‘public good’ and then extracting repayment from only those individuals who so choose to utilize those assets. Minnesota fish and wildlife programs get money from the state’s general fund, so all are (in theory, once again some are exempted) paying regardless of whether or not they pay a user fee. Note — Iowa does not do this, which is probably why we have no fish.

It would be interesting to see if they are turning a profit on any of these permits and redirecting the money elsewhere – the implication that was previously made. Were that the case, then these user fees are clearly extortionate and are being levied unfairly only to pay for unrelated activities. My guess is this is not the case.

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With the average Americans retainable income approaching 45%, it’s clear that the US can’t continue being the US by incurring more taxation.

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Really, they let you keep that much? I was guessing it to be much lower. I get to bring home about 65% of what I make. Then I also get property taxes (5%), sales taxes (5%), about 2/3 of what every pack of smokes costs, about half of every beer I drink, and around half of what I pay in gasoline. When I total all of that up, I suppose that I’m running right in the range you said, though.

The problem is how we got there, and how that fits with the rest of your post. You go on to say things like

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What’s $19.00? An extra tank of gas? One less family jaunt to a fast food joint. One to two less pizzas. etc

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Well, how do you think they’re getting the 65% they’re taking now? If people had to sit down once a month and write a check for 65% of their income, do you really think taxes would be as high as they are? Do you think we’d tolerate paying ‘fees’ for ‘extras’ or would we just demand that they get by on the meager 120% of what we keep?

Nickel and dime is the best method for extorting money without someone noticing – remember the story about the bank programmer who skimmed the fractional interest off every account in the bank where he worked? He got away with hundreds of thousands of $$ until the system broke down, and nobody ever noticed. Right now where I live, they’re trying to pass a two-year local option sales tax of 1 cent to pay for some huge central planning project (that’s doomed to fail, btw). Guess what their slogan is: You’ll never even notice it!

It’s not the $19 or the 1 cent that’s torqueing everyone off, it’s the first $30K and the sheer nerve to come back for more.

Gianni! I should’ve known I could count on you to step up with some of that mind-boggling detail you’re so talented with! Buddy……..you’re like the detail king! I mean that in a good way!

I’m not going to try and maeasure up to the breakdown but the explainations are simple.

The tax vs. fee question was rather rhetorical in it’s intent. It all means one thing…………money out. The bulk of what I was getting at is I know it’s about the nickel and dime, “where does this end” feeling that we have that gets our dander up. However, understand that it’s only present because of limitations. I have them, you have them, everyone has them but here’s what’s missing. We live in a land of free enterprise and yet we settle for whatever affordability window is given to us. Instead of focusing on how to save a nickel or dime, shouldn’t we be investing at least equal time to the effort of generating that same nickel or dime? If we spent even 10% of our time figuring out how to generate assets, we’d greatly reduce the stress we incurr upon ourselves over little things. Sure, the gov. can always come for more but that’s why political activity has it’s place too. Pinch us, we pinch back…………..in the form of a vote.

No problems in what you were saying Gianni, only clarifying that a state of mind can clearly make the difference and in regard to the decision, money out is money out, no matter what they call it.