a warm 06

I agree with the pollution of our land and waters and it is a damn shame! No arguing that! Furthermore I know for a fact there will be repercussions of our pollution, but I don’t believe that it is the cause of the warming trend. I would just like proof that pollution is the cause, not that it helps any, but it is not the direct reason for the warming trend, Back in 1970 all the tree hugers were saying “oh no it the next ice age!” now its “oh no were melting” In 2020 it will be something different again.

But don’t forget also we as americans have made great strides in cleaning up this pollution!!
I remember as a youngster – living in Rhinelander – when the Wisconsin river was so polluted WEEDs would not even grow in it…..now look at it!!
Still lot to do…yes…. but we – as a nation – keep trying.
And this is a good thing!

All I know is the meteorologists cannot get the weather right for next weekend! How am I supposed to believe they can tell what weather is coming 100 years from now?

Global warming is happening. Yes, the planets temp is on the rise. There is no arguing or debating it. Is it purely a natural trend/cycle, only from greenhouse gases or a combination of both?

There have always been spikes and drops in temp throughout history, even before the industrial revolution. That’s not even in question.

Keep in mind the avg. global temp is higher now than it has been historically. Coincidence or are we a contributing factor?

If we look at what’s been happening since the industrial revolution…co2 and greenhouse gases on a HUGE incline, ice cap depths on a steady decline and avg temp on the rise.

If we were to take all those individual graphs on the pages posted or anywhere on the net, which are science fact and look at them individually, we can without a doubt say that’s not scientific proof that pollution is the cause of global warming. But if take all the same graphs and place them one top of each other, look what happens to all those lines and numbers when we hit the industrial revolution. Fossil fuel consumption jumps and continues to rise, greenhouse gases/co2 go through the roof, ice cap’s are melting and their thickness drops, global temp rises, etc…

So, is that when mothernature just happened to heat up and this is all a natural earth cycle? Or, do all the individual stats when combined tell us something’s happened since the industrial revolution? There sure seems to be a connection between the revolution and temp.

We now have the Kyoto protocol which over 160 countries have joined, we have companies like exxon recanting and cutting ties with the “skeptics”. We have gov’t and big business strong arming or paying it’s scientists into changing their findings, this is ALL over the news, it was on last night, showed several documents and scientific findings that were edited before release to the public to downplay global warming. This says something.

Is the sky falling? No. But there seems to be more to it than just a warming trend/natural cycle.

BIRDDOG

Regardless of what anyone thinks, I think it is better to be safe than sorry. It’s everyone’s duty to be proactive rather than reactive to something like this. Would you pick up your litter after the shorelines are lined with it or take it with you when you leave?

Chris

Aww jeez….now I know this getting too political……

The reason 160 countrys signed Kyoto is because MOST of them are exempt from it’s provisions…..including some of the worst polluters…

There has to be a better way…..

and both ice caps are not melting….see my antartic link.

I seen a program on the science channel about this very subject about a week ago. They core drilled thick glaciers to a couple thousand years in the past and have been doing this at various spots all over the globe and found warm spells occasionally showing up even back then in the core ice samples. We have warm and cold weather records being broken occasionally here from records that have been kept back into the 1800’s. Some of the local warm records that have almost been broken were back in the early 1900’s so there was warm weather back around the turn of the century too in winters past. I think global warming does have an influance but i don’t think its as bad as it may seem but know its a good idea to watch whats going on, only my opinion though.

Here is my theory on Global Warming… This is all a conspiracy started by Hallmark! Plain and simple. Just like Mothers day, fathers day, valentines day, people getting sick for get well cards, etc. In about 10 years, after everybody “accepts” global warming, Hallmark will make their strategic move with an entire line of “Happy Global Warming Day”, or “Hope you are staying cool”, or “excuse me, but your sweat is interfering with my casting” cards. It is a conspiracy, I tell you!!!

Well;
If the neanderthals wouldn’t have lit up that terrible tobacco, all the dinos wouldn’t have died from 2nd hand smoke!!!! That is what really caused the ice-age ya know……..all that smoke blocked out the sun!

I’m sorry, but until “non-biased”, non-extremist, non-politically paid, non-agenda driven, scientist are given the proper media time, I will not believe one word.

Proof of this fact is Al Gore’s movie. Out of curiosity I did my own research on Kilimanjaro because he mentioned global warming is destroying the snow on Kilimanjaro. Because of green-house gases, CO discharge, and fossil fuel burning. NONE of this is true. Therefore he looses TOTAL credibility with any thing he further states. Why? He is on a political agenda! Therefore I choose to do my own research.

It is all about credibility.

There is a direct connection between deforestation and co2 release, if there’s no forest to absorb the co2, where’s it going and what’s it’s consequence?

Like you’ve said, there’s SO much more to it, it’s not just black and white. I also agree on your “non-extremist, non-politically paid, non-agenda driven, scientist are given the proper media time” statement. This is part of the bigger picture that others seem to think isn’t happening, although it’s coming out now. We are going to learn more and more about this entire subject in the near future. We’ll see what it holds.

I can appreciate the statement made by catchnrelease??, proactive not reactive.

We are going to learn a lot about this in our lifetimes, with the way the population is growing as fast as it is. This in turn will mean alot more fuel usage, I guess we’ll find out if it has a effect? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being concerned where our planet is headed, proactive not reactive.

BIRDDOG

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We are going to learn a lot about this in our lifetimes, with the way the population is growing as fast as it is. This in turn will mean alot more fuel usage, I guess we’ll find out if it has a effect? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being concerned where our planet is headed, proactive not reactive.
BIRDDOG

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Gary:
The links you provided to support your arguement are from “the heartland institute”. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heartland_Institute
This is not a science site. The owners of this site are paid by Phillip Morris and GM. You have to realize that it certainly gives the impression that you are not open minded on this issue. Global warming is not a political issue. The science is compelling, if you take the time to study it. AS for Mars ice caps melting, there are no water “ice caps” on Mars. If you really want to discuss “junk science”, an analogy between the Mars CO2 ice cap and earths H2O ice is a good place to start. Isolated Frozen Hydrogen and O on the surface of sand dunes?? Our rovers turned up no direct evidence of water on the planet. Some speculate water may exist. But the jump to Mars climate change being related to Earths? There is absolutely no evidence of that. Maybe on the Heartland site.
Back to the main issue, It’s ok to not believe in science. But to suggest that there is not an objective scientific concensus on Global Warming is disingenuous. We owe our children more.

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Here is an interesting story on Mars too, with it getting hotter. Don’t really know the legitimacey of the site, but it makes a person think.

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Kelly-
That was exactly what he was getting at.

If we can all agree that the smaller “footprints” we all make on earth in terms of pollution and changing the natural course of things, the better off the world will be! Make a big footprint in terms of your legacy, but a small footprint in terms of how you’ve negatively impacted the streams, lakes, oceans, air, and land and we’ll have nothing to worry about.

My thoughts on this issue are that we ought to take a cautious “what if” approach to global warming. “What if” there is something to this science, if we wait until we’ve proven the theory that we are harming the earth with Co2 gases, it may be too late too change the course. If we are cautious, and move to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution, we’ll be in a “win-win” position vs. not doing anything for the forseeable future.

I think that is the question. Do we wait to be conservative, or do we just continue the status quo, which concerns many, many individuals in many different countries?

That’s my $0.02!

Eric

THANK YOU KELLY!!!!!!!!
DING-DING-DING-DING!!!!!!
We got a winner!!!!!

AT LEAST SOMEBODY READ IT!!!!!!!!

THAT is my whole point, a person can do a “quick search” and find anything and everything you want to support your own beliefs and make your own beliefs stronger!

My opinion is this: Search the sites that are government based, not independent, such as those I listed or Al Gore’s movie!!

I’ve stated all along here, find solid, complete facts, not “factual data” that supports a scientist theory.

As originally posted, there is only theories. Nobody knows why the dinosaurs disspeared, nobody knows why we had an ice age, The sea use to cover much of our current land, then it recessed, not it appears to be growing again. Why? Theories are there.

Guys:
Yes, Global warming is a theory, but I think you are ignoring overwhelming evidence that suggests we are the main cause. If i understand, your position is that there is no concrete evidence that man is responsible for Global warming. From a linear perpective, here is the argument for man caused global warming.
Ice cores over the past 400 thousand years suggest a direct correlation between hightened Co2 in the atmosphere and and increase temps. As Co2 diminshes, so does mean temp.
Co2’s in the atmoshere have been increasing at a significant level over the past 30 years.
A mulitiute of world wide studies suggest man is resposible for the increasing amount of CO2 in the atmoshphere(PS) Ice core suggest that CO2’s are much higher than they have been in that 400k year ice sample.
Temps are now rising in conguence with the hightened CO2 levels detected over the last 30-40 years.
Yes it’s just a theory. It seems you are asserting that there is not objective scientific concenus on the causal connection for GW. If that is your assertion, it is incorrect. The global scientific community agrees on these points. What part of the argument/science don’t you buy? It really is difficult to find objective science that contracdicts the theory of man created climate change. If you know of some, please show me. I’m interested. -kw

Kelly;
I’m not denying global warming and I’m not denying the rise in Co2.

If core samples have shown the Co2 to be high, just as high, or higher than today, 100k years ago, I do not think man caused our problems today.

That is the complete dispute amongst all the scientist. It is easy to review that last 100 years on a chart and say the “sky is falling”. However the sky also fell with the diminish of the dinosaurs and also fell with the ice age.

When the day comes where we get “straight” information, that will be the day that I won’t play devil’s advocate.

Today, the “man” is causing global warming…..It’s the end of the world as we know it.
20 years ago, “man” was causing the deminish of the OZONE layer. It WAS the end of the world as we knew it.
30 years ago, “man” was causing the “new ice-age”. It WAS the end of the world as we knew it.

They say the planet has warmed 0.2-0.6 degrees Celcius over the past 100 years.

Can I ask how much did it warm up, over the past 400 years, when earth got out of it’s “mini-ice age”?

What do you think of this link?
National Geographic ice-age coming!!!!!!!!

Point is this:
For every link that you can find that states global warming due to man, I can find one that say ice-age is coming, or the sun is getting hotter!

Mudshark: Looking at your sites listed, RealClimate.Org is a scientific site that supports Global Warming. The specific article listed talks about Aresols potential cooling effect (Global Dimming) and how that might impact Global Warming. Thanks for sharing that and I encourage eveyone interested to read the article and look at the site. John-Daly.Org is a personal site from a self-described Global Warming critic who is a talk show host and writer on many topics including economics, business, and Global Warming (check out his book “Pricing in a Global Economy”). ; not that in itself it makes the information useless, but John Daly has no known scientific peer support, which of course, he says is because scientists don’t know what they are talking about: )

Gary,

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Don’t really know the legitimacy of the site, but it makes a person think.

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How does that site make you think?? If in fact you know/knew it’s garbage? I called that site out the first time you used it, yet you continued to use it. You use this garage site in a few of your posts and talk about it as if were truth?? In your last link, it supports the global warming theory. Which is it?

This is the quote I get the biggest kick out of…

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See, when “movies” and “politicians” try to give us “false” documentations, in my opinion they loose all credibility.

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Anyone for that matter.

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PLEASE do your own research on non-biased, extremist views/websites.

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You ask us to, but won’t do it yourself?? You even stress PLEASE.

Let’s be honest, in this entire thread the only “evidence” that dispute global warming have been junk, either from biased sources(john Daley) and/or sources that are excepting big business payoff(heartland institute). Anyone can Google a subject and pick the the first link that supports their stance, don’t do it yourself then preach truth, proof and credibility.

BIRDDOG

Just got back in town…..

Guys, here is my take on this climate change issue.

As early as ten thousand years ago, (A mere blip on the earth timeline) the state of Minnesota was covered in ice. Many geologists believe the coverage was 1000 feet thick in many areas. So, I would conclude that the earth has been warming in one way or another for a long time.

Go back even further in time. 2-10 million years and Minnesota and the Dakotas were lush rainforests where dinosaurs roamed. So, it has been very warm here for a very long time, then froze up. All long before man had any influence on the weather here.

Ok, we can do all we want to clean the air and reduce pollutants. However, if one asteroid the size of a 2 bedroom house slams into our planet the amount of stuff tossed into the atmosphere would plummet the temps for hundreds of years and likely cause another ice age.

So, I guess I’m just not convinced that man has a whole lot of influence on the eventual outcome. I aint worried about it! This is all just fodder in denial of the real problem. Over population. Let’s have a discussion about not reproducing. OH CRAP!!! The world will just ignore that one and eventually mother nature will take care of it just like every other living creature that over populates it own environment.

-J.

But we could try to put less into the atmosphere. We could also put less mercury into our lakes. It just seems like common sense to do what we can. Unless of course it hurts exxon who just posted the hugest profit in history again. Breaking their own record.

I agree.

In relation to the number of people on this planet, we are probably cleaner now than any time in the past.

Also, any new cost related to clean energy will be paid by the consumer, not the oil companies. Two seperate issues.

Now, let’s split some atoms!

-J.

HOLY COW!
What’s going on!
Looks/sounds like you called my bluff!

Birddog;
I have only seen one or two linkes of factual data here on this thread. Just mostly postings, like you said, from quick google search engines that either support human destruction of the earth or ones that deny it.

I’ll continue to play devil’s advocate until the theories are proven!

Just as my links are paid by Philips and GM, the countering links are paid by “non-profit” organizations that get big kick-backs and free money grants from similarly large corporations. All are being paid by someone or some group with a bunch of money.

It was stated that there is no information posted that disputes humans creating global warming. You are right, and there doesn’t need to be, for the mere reason that it is a “theory”. It is the scientist that is claiming this that has to prove it.

It is a good conversation!!!!

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Mudshark: Looking at your sites listed, RealClimate.Org is a scientific site that supports Global Warming. The specific article listed talks about Aresols potential cooling effect (Global Dimming) and how that might impact Global Warming. Thanks for sharing that and I encourage eveyone interested to read the article and look at the site.

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Whewww….. Finally some one actully toook time to READ it….. – I threw the Daly site in as an example only.

In the past 2 years or so I have check out DOZENS of different sites….goverment,private…for and against… and I’ve come to one (ok 2) conclusions.

1 Yes I believe warming is occuring and SOME of it is man’s fault,how much I don’t know

2- No one -including the pro GW scientists will say it is ALL mans fault.

Should we as a country do as much as we can to reduce our “footprint”…..YES..

But scare tactics and crippling our country’s economy are NOT the way to do it……

We need to do this in a logical way .

(BTW…realclimate is partilly funded by Geoge Soros’s foundation…unbiased???..Maybe…)

If Al Gore would shut his big fat mouth and stop letting out all that hot air the earths temperature would drop 5-10 degrees!!

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I’ll continue to play devil’s advocate until the theories are proven!

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In true science, theories are NEVER proven and there are no facts. Thats the way it works.

You only have hypothesis, theories, and laws.

BTW, gravity is only a theory, but i wouldn’t want to test it by jumping out of a tree.

It is interesting that global warming is the TOP headline on CNN, MSNBC, Yahoo and many other news websites this morning. Below are a few excerpts:

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International scientists and officials hailed a report Friday saying that global warming is “very likely” caused by man, and that hotter temperatures and rises in sea level “would continue for centuries” no matter how much humans control their pollution.

The 21-page summary of the panel’s findings released Friday represents the most authoritative science on global warming. The panel comprises hundreds of scientists and representatives of 113 governments.

The scientists said the changes are “very likely” caused by human activity, a phrase that translates to a more than 90 percent certainty that global warming is caused by man’s burning of fossil fuels. That was the strongest conclusion to date, making it nearly impossible to say natural forces are to blame.

“The point here is to highlight what will happen if we don’t do something and what will happen if we do something,” co-author Jonathan Overpeck at the University of Arizona said. “I can tell if you will decide not to do something the impacts will be much larger than if we do something.”

Global Warming huh???

It’s about -20 here this morning.

I remember deer hunting in weather like this when I was a lad. When’s the last time we saw this in November?

Something to keep in mind when looking at the C02 figures from the ice core samples is that C02 is actually released from the oceans as the water temperature increases. Conversely, as water temperature decreases, the ocean absorbs more C02. Are increased temperatures causing the increase in C02, or is the increase in C02 causing the temperature to rise? Remember that CORRELATION does not mean CAUSATION. I went to gradeschool in the early 70’s. So, that means I’m amazed that “overpopulation” and the “Ice Age” haven’t killed us already. I’m just stoked to still be alive