Very well put!

  • lax79
    La Crosse, WI
    Posts: 124
    #1252038

    This is a letter I came across, I think it was very well written and clearly defines the problems on our waterways.

    Patrick,

    I am a USCG Licensed Master Captain and spend in excess of 100 days on the water during the open water period on waters throughout Wisconsin. Since I do not call the department every time (never have) I am affected by an (rude) unsportsmanlike or just plain unsafe boater you can utilize this email as a formal complaint. As a mater of fact you should record a minimum of 100 such events for this year alone and another 100 per year for the last ten years under my name. You can use any of the items listed below for the heading of those complaints.

    Here is my STRONG objection or testimony to the proposed tournament regulations regarding user conflicts and why you can NOT use this as a basics for adding additional regulation to tournament anglers.

    I have not seen any qualified data regarding these complaints the WDNR says they receive regarding tournament anglers or any other users for that matter. This is especially disturbing when you are hoping to write new legislation against one small user group without the facts and public data to back up your claims.

    You should be mindful that tournament anglers are most likely the most experienced users on the water. Some have Captains licenses, most have had a boaters safety or Coast Guard training course, most spend 3 – 10 times more time on the water than the average boater and all of them could report 100’s of user conflicts they experience on a daily basis, but don’t.

    Please be mindful of the SLIPPERY SLOPE!! When singling out a relatively small group and not dealing directly with root causes or everyone equally you risk alienating that or other groups that feel they also deserve special regulation. Here are a few examples of groups that could be singled out for there perceived misuse or abuse of our waters:

    Jet Skis – This is by far the most dangerous group and by far the least experienced group. 100% of fishermen and other recreational users would support a ban on this group. They are the most rude and create the largest number of complaints and overall threat to everyone’s on the water experience. This group does not follow the basic navigation rules, creating great safety concerns for everyone utilizing our waterways!

    Large yachts, Cigarette boats (go fast) and larger pleasure crafts – Next to jet skis this group is next in line as far as causing conflict or safety concerns to others utilizing the water. This group is largely dominated by well healed citizens that normally keep there crafts tied to docks or rafted up in some harbor drinking and having fun. However when traveling back and forth from these places they do so with little or no regard to other users. It could be said that there view of other users is I have the bigger boat so get the hell out of the way. They are also another group that for the most part do not have the training, experience or time on the water to operate these vessels in a safe manner. The water displacement created by these vessels is dangerous to all users and creates the most damage to shorelines. They as a general rule hold no regard for other users and feel they have the right of way due to the cost and size of there vessels.

    Water Skiers or Tubers – This group can be very rude and unsafe to both users and the people they tow behind there boats. You can find these users pulling people within close proximity of many of the other users on the water. They often pull children in navigation channels, narrow or very busy rivers and have caused me and many others to gasp to catch our breath as these children are flung or tossed into dangerous situations. These users are for the most part very inexperienced and put there children and others they tow and come around in harms way. Their constant motion creates huge wakes that make it unpleasant to relax or fish and cause major damage to shorelines. This group does not follow the basic navigation rules, creating great safety concerns for anyone utilizing our waterways!

    Serious Fishermen/Outdoorsmen – This group has above average boating experience some safety training and generally respect other users as they spend a lot of time on the water. They don’t call the department every time someone is rude to them as they realize it is a part of sharing the water with everyone. They like any group have a few bad eggs.

    Tournament Anglers – This group has by far the most boating experience. It could be reasonably said that the average tournament angler has in excess of 20 years of boating experience. Most have had safety training and generally respect all other users as they spend the most time on the water. They do at times go fast but because of minimal water displacement when traveling at speed they cause little or no wake. Driving fast from place to place while tournament fishng accounts for less than 5% of the total time spent on the water fishing during a tournament day. Again due to there boating experience traveling at higher speeds does not translate to unsafe or rude operation. When possible they give other users a large breath when going around them. When other fishermen are anchored or fishing in navigation channels or limited area travel corridors they should expect closer quarters from all users and not single out one group due to speed or other reasons. Tournament anglers don’t call the department when someone is rude to them as they realize it is a part of sharing the water with everyone. They like any group have a few bad eggs.

    Joe Angler – They have small aluminum boats or canoes and keep every fish they catch because they do not get out often. They are not very experienced and are the most put off by these other user groups when they are amazed at the traffic on our waterways. They use the water the least and expect everyone else to stay the hell away. They illegally anchor in navigation channels and get pissed off when anyone runs past them. They call the department every time anyone comes within a 100 yards of them. They however are also the first to pick up and anchor within 20 feet or less of any fishermen that they see catching fish. They will run past another boat within feet and think nothing about it. This is especially true when they see a tournament fishermen catching fish and most likely the cause of most of the complaints against tournament fishermen. Ask any tournament fisherman and he or she will recount the many times when fishing away from others and catching fish only to have worm soakers as we call them surround us and drive us away from the spot. This group does not follow the basic navigation rules, creating great safety concerns for anyone utilizing our waterways!

    Pontoon Boaters/Lake Home Owners – They are largely made up of out of state, non-resident people. They don’t believe that the general public should be able to use what they deem as “there lake”!!! This is especially true on smaller bodies of water. They are not very experienced boaters yet most have one and a couple of jet skis tied up to there docks. They are the most put off by these other user groups when they are amazed at the traffic on our (Wisconsin Residents) waterways. They are on the water every weekend jet skiing, water skiing, cruising and often drinking in there runabouts or pontoon boats. They are rude and unsportsmanlike like and treat other users with distance. They hate any type of wake not made by them and would like to eliminate these nuisance users. They regard all tournament anglers as rich millionaires when they are standing on the shoreline of there million dollar lake homes with 100 feet of dock, runabout and two jet skis. They get pissed off when they invite there friends from Illinois with there jet skis and other users are utilizing there launch site. They call the DNR and other governmental bodies every chance they get. They have even created a lobby group to try and restrict resident users from utilizing there lakes! As a side note tournament anglers don’t call in when these launch sites are plugged with double parked cars in trailer areas, jet ski or other boat trailers with license plates from the friends of these Illinois lake home owners.

    In Closing:

    The same punitive rules could be pushed or developed for water skiers, mooring buoys for owners of sailboats or yachts or even pontoon boats. Most waterway users don’t like or want excessive development and the huge negative affect it creates on our Public waters. Most all users don’t want to deal with the huge wakes created by yachts or cigarette style go fast boats. There are major safety issues with jet skis, ski or tow boat users. Check your data and statistics and you will find that tournament fishermen are among the safest users of our waters!!!

    I propose that the WDNR adds nothing to the new rules relating to tournaments and tournament fishermen and instead focuses on the education of all users, especially those that create the largest safety hazards to all users. The WDNR should issue citations to unsafe users, utilizing the current regulations on the books.

    Sincerely,

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #496114

    Quote:


    Jet Skis – This is by far the most dangerous group and by far the least experienced group. 100% of fishermen and other recreational users would support a ban on this group.


    I know I would not support such a ban.

    I apologize if I offend you in any way but I find this letter poorly written. It is nothing but stereotype from beginning to end and does the same thing that the author is accusing the DNR of doing to tournament anglers…. passing blanket judgement without considering facts or research and based solely on opinion.

    Statements like these are flat out redicuous:

    Jet Skis – This is by far the most dangerous group and by far the least experienced group. 100% of fishermen and other recreational users would support a ban on this group.

    I like to jetski. I am safe and respectful of others when I do so.

    Tournament Anglers – This group has by far the most boating experience. It could be reasonably said that the average tournament angler has in excess of 20 years of boating experience.

    I know MANY tournament anglers with very few hours on the water to their names. In fact, I’ve often suggested to new anglers that a good way to learn a body of water is to fish local tournaments.

    Joe Angler – They have small aluminum boats or canoes and keep every fish they catch because they do not get out often.

    The size of the boat indicates experience level? So then why doesn’t the author feel that the guys in the big yachts are the MOST experienced group?

    Again, no offense meant to you directly but this letter is an example of the problem and not a voice of reason. This is just one more person that thinks the way they see things is the way ALL people should see things.

    dtro
    Inactive
    Jordan
    Posts: 1501
    #496122

    Quote:


    Joe Angler – They have small aluminum boats or canoes and keep every fish they catch because they do not get out often.


    I have a small aluminum boat, and I can personally guarantee you that I’ve spent more time and kept less fish than the majority of your so called “serious anglers”.

    People need to remember that for the most part, these are public waters and just because you or I are bothered by the jet skiis or cruisers, doesn’t mean that they are in the wrong.
    Yes there are law breakers in every group. The answer is education, not anger.

    davenorton50
    Burlington, WI
    Posts: 1417
    #496125

    I believe the best way for us tournament/derby anglers to affect the outcome of this proposal is to focus and provide SOLUTIONS rather than continue to point the finger and pass blame.

    Do I feel us tournament anglers are being (and have been) targeted…absolutely.

    I plan to provide a few examples of ways us tournament anglers can decrease the already small percentage of post-tournament mortality rates by engineering and practical means. Basically, just by better livewell pump inspections prior to each tournament, education and use of ice, educating and use of livewell additives, faster weigh-ins, etc…

    I believe we can prove that these proposals are not neccessary and that our tournaments have zero effect on our resources. In fact, the DNR already said there is zero effect so I don’t even know why we are debating it???

    amwatson
    Holmen,WI
    Posts: 5130
    #496127

    As much as I am NOT in favor of the tourney regulation proposal, this letter was very poorly written There is way too much finger pointing and blame for the “other” groups as well as a lot of speculation and personal opinions on said groups. What we need is that type of letter with actual facts and figures to back up the statements.
    One statement that was clearly wrong was the average years that a tournament angler has for boating experience. 20 years is clearly stretching the truth. Since there are many young tourney anglers out there now, that figure stuck out for me.
    This is a battle that we ALL need to get involved with and singling out different users to point blame will get us nowhere.

    Mudshark
    LaCrosse WI
    Posts: 2973
    #496128

    Guys..I think your missing the point of his writing….

    He is saying if people want to restrict tourny anglers for the bad actions of a few… restrictions on these people would be ok also………because of the actions of a few.

    A bit sarcasim…….

    Please be mindful of the SLIPPERY SLOPE!! When singling out a relatively small group and not dealing directly with root causes or everyone equally you risk alienating that or other groups that feel they also deserve special regulation. Here are a few examples of groups that could be singled out for there perceived misuse or abuse of our waters:

    eyebuster
    Duluth
    Posts: 1025
    #496129

    Pontoon Boaters/Lake Home Owners – They are largely made up of out of state, non-resident people. They don’t believe that the general public should be able to use what they deem as “there lake”!!! This is especially true on smaller bodies of water. They are not very experienced boaters yet most have one and a couple of jet skis tied up to there docks. They are the most put off by these other user groups when they are amazed at the traffic on our (Wisconsin Residents) waterways. They are on the water every weekend jet skiing, water skiing, cruising and often drinking in there runabouts or pontoon boats. They are rude and unsportsmanlike like and treat other users with distance. They hate any type of wake not made by them and would like to eliminate these nuisance users. They regard all tournament anglers as rich millionaires when they are standing on the shoreline of there million dollar lake homes with 100 feet of dock, runabout and two jet skis. They get pissed off when they invite there friends from Illinois with there jet skis and other users are utilizing there launch site. They call the DNR and other governmental bodies every chance they get. They have even created a lobby group to try and restrict resident users from utilizing there lakes! As a side note tournament anglers don’t call in when these launch sites are plugged with double parked cars in trailer areas, jet ski or other boat trailers with license plates from the friends of these Illinois lake home owners.

    This has been my first year on the river and I feel that this is not true. I have found many owners olong the river to be vary nice and wave and even held a few chats with some of these people! My Fiance’s Dad Owns a place along the river and he is constantly chatting with people as they come by. Maybe I have just got lucky and fished around Nice owners but I feel that this is how the Auther wants to feel not how it truly is!!

    shaley
    Milford IA
    Posts: 2178
    #496138

    I live in an area that describes the Million $$ lake homes owned by non residents and out of towners. 3700 acre lake that on a dead calm day is so rough from pleasure boats, jet skies and go fast, that its nearly unfishable after 9 am on any given weekend. Summer season finds me fishing a 5600 acre lake where even on the 4th of July fishing boats outnumber pleasure users. I think the biggest reason why is the big lake hasnt allowed development like the smaller one has there for less pleasure boats.

    I have only lived in this area 3 years now but theres been 4 deaths and countless unsolved boating accidents on the 3700 lake vers just 1 death and a couple accidents on the bigger lake used mainly by fishermen.

    My biggest complaint AFTER jet skies are ignorant fishermen, guys that blow out of the middle of pod of boats without regard to anyone. ITs not just 1 select group causing the problems its those that are uneducated and unskilled. I myself would like to see a licensing for boats and water craft like a car, where you have to know the rules and have the training before getting on the water.

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #496141

    Quote:


    I myself would like to see a licensing for boats and water craft like a car, where you have to know the rules and have the training before getting on the water.


    Now that I would agree with completely.

    david_scott
    Twin Cities
    Posts: 2946
    #496142

    I think the letter stinks too. I for one dont like the big cruisers either,, and we can all relate to that.. but the * Joe Angler * comments is all the proof right there that many(not all) tournament fishermen have absolutely no respect for anyone on the water but themselves. They could care less if that SS Tinfoil was on the other side of the lake.. as long as it wasnt in their path, or near the next spot they are going to fish.

    The fact is, tournament anglers have heavy, fast boats and they think they are on the audobaun(sp?) moving from A to B, and their biggest concern is not losing fishing time when moving. Any stationary object n the lake is a hazzard when you are going 70.

    My comments might be poorly written, but I really dont care.. just making a point. I have more hours/years/decades on the water on a near daily basis most years and MOST of that was in a tin can… now my tin can is a little bigger, heavier, and the paint is newer, but its still a tin can.

    The best is when you get the $50K ranger tossing spinner baits through your DUCK DECOYS. I dont know if they were tourney anglers in season, or want to be’s.. either way, theres lots of bad apples in every crowd. Joe Angler is usually the least problem because he just wants to go outand catch fish, and live to get to the shoreline without getting swamped or run over.

    I dont like the bill on restricting tournaments either.. but I am not going to sit here and swallow a bunch of bogus statements from an individual degrading everyone else that doesnt do exactly as they do in a expensive tournament boat.

    WHoever wrote that letter… get a set of clubs and take up golf.

    kwkfsh
    Posts: 116
    #496153

    Whether you like it or not touraments and a lot tournament fisherman monetize the resource and to various extents stand to receive monetary gain from it.

    This reason alone sets the tournament angler apart from the recreational user and will and should bring with it additional regulation.

    Fishing guides require additional licensing, commercial insurance, and even carry a different type of PFD on board due to the monetary consideration.

    Tournament organizers for the most part are running them as a business venture with the hope of a monetary gain. And many tournament anglers are also fishing for monetary gain or recognition to enhance thier ability to receive monetary gain.

    Although I am sure that many tournament organizers have the best interests of the resource at heart. I am also sure that many tournament organizers also have their own financial interests as their foremost concern. I personally have had a pro tell me that they put a 27″ walleye in the livewell on Mille lacs so they could go in and put a sponsors shirt on to get a picture before the release. That is a prime example of the monetary reward taking precedence over the best thing for the resource.

    With increased pressure and commercialization will most likely come the inevitable increase in regulation and fees. There are few sporting events that utilize public resources to the extent that fishing tournaments do.

    billybob68
    Austin, MN
    Posts: 108
    #496154

    i agree with Fisher Dave, i myself do not own a boat at this point but i do plan to one day and i am sure that a will not be able to afford a big ol, expensive, flashy bass boat, i plan on getting a “tin can”, when i am able to get out on the water with someone else we most sertainly do not keep every fish. just as other people have stated you cant generalize a group and most groups will have a few rule/law breakers.
    thats just my 2 cents

    pool13_jeff
    NW, IL
    Posts: 884
    #496166

    I understand his point, but many won’t. Many people will read that and say, “Typical tournament angler, full of arrogance.” Very poor representative for this cause, in my opinion.

    2Fishy4U
    Posts: 973
    #496184

    Just a few comments.

    Joe Angler causes literally no problems and I suspect a lot of these guys have been on the river longer then most of us.

    The one stereotype I feel is accurate relates to Cruisers and large yachts. They have no respect for other boats and I suspect Joe Angler has taken water in more then a few times because of these fools. I have no respect for the Cruiser folks and law enforcement has done little or nothing to protect Joe Angler from these guys despite their tendency to throw 4 foot waves.

    matt_grow
    Albertville MN
    Posts: 2019
    #496196

    Quote:


    Please be mindful of the SLIPPERY SLOPE!! When singling out a relatively small group and not dealing directly with root causes or everyone equally you risk alienating that or other groups that feel they also deserve special regulation. Here are a few examples of groups that could be singled out for there perceived misuse or abuse of our waters:




    Mudshark caught it

    This is poorly written, because its unclear if he’s using the examples as accusations he beleives or if he’s writing in a stereotypical sense to prove to his point. The quote above is the problem.

    If he is trying to prove his point with these stereotypical answers, and he is admitedly expressing them as wrongfully stereotypical, then I agree with him, Because his list is all false accusations.

    Again read the quoted paragraph above and decide what is meant by it. It is unclear.

    amwatson
    Holmen,WI
    Posts: 5130
    #496202

    Okay, now that Matt made his post, I had to go back and re-read the letter without an immediate defensive mind set. I am now confused. It now appears that the author is NOT going off on other users of our waterways. Instead he is giving stereotypical examples to prove his point of a “slippery slope”. I think many of us may have jumped to conclusions, including myself

    Mudshark
    LaCrosse WI
    Posts: 2973
    #496207

    Quote:


    Okay, now that Matt made his post, I had to go back and re-read the letter without an immediate defensive mind set. I am now confused. It now appears that the author is NOT going off on other users of our waterways. Instead he is giving stereotypical examples to prove his point of a “slippery slope”. I think many of us may have jumped to conclusions, including myself



    cade-laufenberg
    Winona,MN/La Crosse, WI
    Posts: 3667
    #496211

    I personally consider myself a serious angler, but I fish out of a “joe angler” boat. my boat is only 12 feet long, but i have never taken on water due to the wake of another boat. I have spent hundreds of hours on the river and this has for some reason, never happened to me. Maybe it is because i am a responsible boater and I don’t try to do things that I am not capable of. Face it, you won’t see the cruiser yahts throwing 4 foot wakes in the backwaters…These boats are on the main channel areas, and if you don’t like them, stay off the channel! If you want to fish the channel, then you are going to have to put up with their wake while they put up with you possibly being in their way. Everybody must do their own part for things to work smoothly. Be responsible and respectful on the water, and chances are good that you will only find the same respect and responsibility in return

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #496219

    If that was what the original author intended to say with his piece he did a masterful job of desguising his intent.

    At this point I’m willing to take your word for it.

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