EJ,
First of all Lewinsky wasn’t underage. I hope you understand the difference.
By your definition, resigning makes someone accountable.
Also, “edificate” the other things WK pointed out.
You should know that I punch Republican almost all the time, but it bugs me to no end when someone says one party is corrupt, or unaccountable, blah blah blah. One is no better than the other. Now, I’m done with this discussion.
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Okay Apple jack. It was a poor response at best. I may change my name to Whiskey keg in your honor. I actually have an antique whiskey keg cover hanging in our house. The Republicans need to get off that morality kick because they have been exposed as a bunch of free golf trip taking, money laundering, bribe taking, pedophile hiding, tax cut and spenders on credit fools. Wasn’t it you that decried the dems as the party of entitlement just after they threw that bone to the old folks? You need to read more.
Hey Whiskey Keg, I would albeit reluctantly, hang you in my house also 
! As far as your tirade on Reps, I submit that may be the only common ground with Dems, the distiction is, when confronted, the Reps do the proper thing and resign, the Dems ask what the meaning of is, is! 
My friend, I having been on this Earth, what I would submit is somewhat longer than you and matriculated with a very liberal education, having survived this encumbrance by finding my own independent analytical powers. I submit, with all due respect WK, I have been reading, digesting and concluding somewhat longer than you, assuming, of course, that you are able to do so now, which in all due honesty and respect, steches my boundless imagination! I believe you read, probably copiously, however, you need to be able to be able to recognise propaganda from fact! That is the challenge, probably too much CNN, maybe you should Turner over a new leaf and try some fair and balanced! 
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EJ,
First of all Lewinsky wasn’t underage. I hope you understand the difference.
By your definition, resigning makes someone accountable.
Also, “edificate” the other things WK pointed out.
You should know that I punch Republican almost all the time, but it bugs me to no end when someone says one party is corrupt, or unaccountable, blah blah blah. One is no better than the other. Now, I’m done with this discussion.
The Page was sixteen and the Intern was at least eighteen ! The similarity is both Politicians took advantage of their power, the difference is one was guilty of inappropriate correspondence, the other was guilty of inappropriate physical behavior. I think it was Alakine, a great Russian chess grandmaster that said, ‘It is a common mind that can recognize similarities in chess board positions, it is the discerning mind that recognizes the differences’!
It is true that all politicians are fallible humans, Reps will ultimately accept the accountability when exposed
and do the right thing, while the Dems refuse to be held accountable for something they consider their right, therefore, accounability becomes a non sequitur!
huh… sitting in the middle… i dont see much admirable on either side.. and the farther away from center they get the less I see…. if you try and look at both sides without prejudice you will find admirable people and scumbags on both sides… if you look for accountability its the same.. we need the good people as politicians… the bad ones… well.. we just simply dont need them…. even in prison they just take up space that could be better used…..
I try to look at the issues in the world.. try and think about what might be done to solve them… try to think about the unthinkable too… wish I could come up with answers on my own… I cant.. wish our goverment could come up with answers on their own… but heck take a look at the infighting were doing here and mulitpy it by 100 and its probably what you get in politics… how can you accomplish anything with that kind of polarity? we need to tone down the far left and far right.. get both sides closer to the middle… so there is some common ground that they can agree on… and then something can be done… instead of just coming up with ideas such as “stay the course”…. now THATS ground breaking genius level theory…. and history has certainly born out its effectiveness…. Im only saying that in any endeavor you need to be flexible…. Im not talking being able to turn 180 at the drop of a hat like a certain leftist senator can do…. but being able to consider your stance.. being able to admit that you may have been mistaken and entertain thoughts (from others) as to how to better your position… that seems to be wisdom…. why is it so hard to find today?
For those who aren’t ever worried about losing firearms rights….lets just look to Australia, England, and Canada. I bet the people in Australia who had to turn in their semi-automatic shotguns thought it would “never happen”. I bet the people of England who can’t own a handgun….yes folks…thats everyone, thought that would “never happen”. If you think it could “never happen” here….then go ahead and trust a congress headed by the likes of Kennedy, Schumer, Pelosi, Feinstein, Conyers, Kerry, and Waxman….to name a few. Having the attitude that it could “never happen here” is just down right scary to me.
Having just read this entire thread, I am confident that the party that best represents my values and beliefs is strongly supported and will probably win the majority in both the house and senate after this election. I am however inclined to believe that locally the party that does not best represent me will continue its downhill trip at the reins of the sleigh.
In summation. Nationally the GOP will probably keep control and thankfully keep terrorists at bay, the economy in good shape, interest rates down, home ownership on the increase and not give illegals amnesty and terrorists the same rights as the rest of us.
Locally, Mn and Wi will probably continue to be taxed and “fee’d” to death by the likes of people like Oberstar, Obey, Klobuchar, Feingold because we all know how important it is to pay some of the highest property tax rates so illegals can go to school cheaper than residents, Paying exorbanant fees for trail stickers and licenses ALL goes toward improving habitat and that pot has never been raided to pay for anything but. Its best we keep these liberals in office because god forbid we prevent a handful of homosexuals from collecting on one’s insurance bennefits as their “spouse”.
Oh yeah, and why the hell should anyone need to prove they are a legal resident and citizen when they cast a vote, or be allowed to carry a fire arm? Two issues that a very large percentage of people in Wisconsin supported yet were veto’d. Not once but 3 times for the voter ID and twice for the carry law. Who would do that? Why non other than our wonderful DEMOCRAT Govenor.
Yeah, sign me up….For now, I think I’ll punch the right side of the ticket.
Unfortunately there appears to be no Deus Ex Machina (a person who suddenly appears to solve a seemingly unsolvable problem) among us. I will agree that both parties have their good and their bad, power has a corrupting characteristic especially on weaker men and women! I personally vote to perserve traditional values. As my final post on this subject I would cite this quote by John Underwood:
“In a society where anything goes, everything, eventually, will. A society that stands for nothing will fall for anything—and then, of course, will simply fall.”
The one time omnipotent Roman Empire comes to mind!
the rise and fall of the roman empire was interesting… Id say it might have been spurred along when they went from a democratic republic to a “imperial” dictatorship whos passage of power were as often or not military coups….. of course the famous weakening of moral fabric played a part.. but wasnt that essentially among the rich and powerful?… not the salt of the earth?y… there simply wasnt one factor that did in the roman empire… but the fact that they were imperialistic and were hated and feared by the rest of the world didnt help much either…. to set oneself against the world instead of FOR the world has always been a step towards destruction…..
Democracy, the worst form of Government other than all the rest…… 
I think the GOP will keep the majority but loose some seats. It is scary to think what this country would be like now if Al Gore or John Kerry would have been elected. We probably would have had several more terrorist atacks inside our borders because the Dem’s have a history of reducing the military and doing nothing when the things like the USS Cole was attacked,barracks were blown up, etc by terrorists. Bush is doing the right thing by fighting them on foreign soil, even though it is an unpopular war.
It is estimated that there are 1.2 billion Muslems in the world and 10 % of them want every American dead at any cost! Including blowing themselves up to kill others. They hate the rest of the Free Christian world too. They will stop at nothing to snuff out everyone they call infadels ( those who are not Muslem). You can’t negotiate with them. If they get ahold of a neuclear bomb from North Korea they wouldn’t hesitate to use it on us. Many people believe this holy war is the beginning of world war III. Therefore I support what George Bush is doing. We are called to pray for God’s blessing and protection for our country and for those in authority over us.
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Democracy, the worst form of Government other than all the rest……
A republic…….The best form of goverment!! 
(With a bill of rights attached)
Jon don’t take this wrong as its meant only to be informative for everyone. When the viet nam war was going on and all the previous wars befor that all the contracts were being handled by the war department. All the manufacturers and vendors that wanted to get contracts supplying the needs for those wars were being handled by the war dept. No one company had any say on who got any of those contracts and everyone of those companies had to try to sell thier supplies, with a good reason, why the united states government needed them for supplying those needs for war. There was no one company that handled the whole war contract supplys, they were all furnished by individual companies competeing for those bids. The war dept. wanted it that way so it would be cheaper to fight a war giving competition a chance to keep prices down. I know one thing that alot of people are thinking including myself, is why there is no more war dept. giving contracts. Now its Haliburton, who gave haliburton the power to do this over the war dept. Alot of people can see the corruption being caused by doing business this way, who gave this one company all that power, thats not even a smart thing to do. There were thousands of companies who wanted to supply thier products but haliburton had the say as to who got them and who didn’t, even thought these companies were completely capable and cheaper, thats not good business for america. The American taxpayers could have saved billions if the war dept. were in charge of giving contracts out instead of haliburton. This is why alot of people now are seeing haliburton as corrupt and not involving but the few. I for one would like to see a total federal investigation of Haliburton and all of its investors and stratagies involved. I know its nice too look at haliburton as the whole one big company that handles everything because they had too but thats not the case. Ask the thousands of companys that were totally capable of supplying those needs too and weren’t picked. Giving one company total control over operations is like inviting communism to our doors. It would be much more diversafied to give those contracts to companies throught the war department, a government branch instead of a world wide company. I know some aren’t going to think this way but who gave haliburton more power to control these things than the war department.
Pretty much what I expected as far as responses, and and from the folks I expected them from. Thanks for the replies. Like I have said often, I can listen and process the thoughts and opinions of everyone on both sides. I don’t have to agree with them, but I respect everyone’s thought process. What I don’t like to see is someone telling someone that their thoughts or beliefs are flat out wrong, and not give any reasoning as to why. Or that they are unable or unwilling to at least see both sides. Right, left or riding the middle of the fence, we are all passionate about our beliefs. And the fact that we are, and are able to express them in public is in itself a HUGE pat on the back of the good ol’ USA.
Haliburton. Hmmmm. Is what you are saying is that we need another layer of Govt. to manage something that can be done in the private sector? Any other large company that is well managed has the right to bid those jobs. (The Govt. approves or declines those bids.) Haliburton has those contracts because they are a vary large company that has the proper infrastructure to go in and get major contracts like rebuilding countries.
Imagine this. The Govt. assigning 10000 other smaller companies contracts to go in and get the job done. Can you imagine the logistical nightmare that would ensue? Can you see a portal for fraud and misrepresentation on a large, make that a HUGE scale? The answer to that question would be grid lock in my mind. Haliburton like any other super huge company is living in a fish bowl. Thare are those of us pointing our collective fingers at them and blaming them for cost over runs, and monopolizing their position. But in truth, they have been held accountable for their actions, and have been penalized where and when necessary. There is nothing stopping anyone from going in and challenging them for contracts. Here is another question you can ask yourself. How many union electricians/plumbers/carpenters/iron workers etc. do you think they employ?
Chriss i understand what your saying, that is the way i think too along with many others. Was the government so big and not run correctly befor haliburton was the main contractor, no. Im middle of the road and understand alot of the thoughts the republicans think and they do make sense but seeing a giant like Haliburton run most of everything looks to me like corruption. Im curious why so many comapnies filed lawsuits after they had to go through Haliburtons say so befor they were turned down for those government contracts instead of the government saying no. I see it more diversified and true capitism being givin a better deal by giving contracts to more single companies than one giant, too me the profits from this would be wider spread throughout the United States and thats where they should go . I see the possibility of corruption walking a wider road having one major giant doing most of the walking down it. It use to be in viet nam and world war one and two there were very many more companies distributed more thoroughly thought out the United States putting tens of thousands too work now hardly any and all at the sayso of Haliburton, thats why theres so many lawsuits. There are plenty of big companies that have to offer thier services that were turned down and what about the little ones that want to expand thier doors that were also turned down. I know why your thinking its easier to manage one or a few big companies but who said war is easy and isn’t it a better way for the United States to put more people to work to fight for a country as a whole instead of certain regions here at home. It just isn’t right that a company has the sayso which areas are givin contracts and thats whats happening. Granted that this war isn’t as big as WW 2 and dosen’t employ as many people as a whole but i can see alot of favoritism and along party lines and which side voters are casting thier votes compared to who is givin contracts. You can tell how fair somethings run by how finely tuned and how good it runs. I know republicans want things to be run simpler but what happens to the rest of the companies that are left out and can perform even better than Haliburton and cheaper too delivering the things thy make, that sounds like $100 toilet seats too me. Give a few companies the sayso and they will overcharge for everything they can, they always have. Diversify and if there is a little company overchargeing the damage will be smaller to the tax payer, i think the possibility of taxpayers getting reamed by haliburton are there and is happening. Some people think thats small peanuts but its not. I think the people responsible for giving haliburton most of the control and contacts for the war in iraq should be throughly investigated when there are many more companies capable of doing a better job than Haliburton, maybe not as big but are more capable and would deliver much better. To me and many others giving Haliburton most of the control over contracts was one of the worst things that could happen to our country as a whole. Give out more available contracts to the country as a whole and you’ll see more of the true blood of this country.
Just for informational purposes, not trying to step on your toes Mossy but there is no longer a “war dept.” Its now called the Department of Defense.
And there ARE hundreds if not thousands of companies with gov’t contracts. Mcdonalds, Burger King, Wendy’s, Federal ammunition, Ford Aerospace, General motors. The list goes on and on…
MD, I hear what you are saying. But what those smaller companies are called are subcontractors. (I know you know that, I have seen what you do for a living.) Haliburton hires them like all big contractors do. Housing contractors will hire carpet people, plumbers, electricians, etc. But the sign of the builder out front is one company. Same deal here. But they do not have the GAO (Govt. Accounting Office) looking over their shoulder like Haliburton does. They have had their hand slapped once before that I know of. Maybe more. They are being held accountable.
What happened to Haliburton when Clinton was in office? They found a way to thrive then too. No one ever said anything then. Why? Because Cheney was once at the wheel. That is why. The company was well managed, and our vice pres. proved he could run and manage a HUGE company. In my opinion giving him a lot of credit and experience going into the #2 position of running a country like the US. More so that a lot of Liberal Dems. that are career politicians that like to tell you and me that they know that the best way to manage the Country is through more expensive social programs that were shown do not work.
They (Haliburton) are an easy target like big oil. Easy to spot and point fingers at. Many that like the idea of re-distribution of wealth will target companies like that without regard of looking at the bigger picture. Specifically how many people that these companies employ. Look at how many people enjoy excellent health care coverage! Look at how many of these employees are buying houses, supporting families, and putting their kids through college! Many more than people working for the Govt. working within the contraints of some Govt. social program for $28k per year! I would argue that these bigger companies that were/are ripe for corruption have been sniffed out and exposed during GWB’s administration, and are being held accountable. Look at UHC, Northwest Airlines, a lot of other big companies where VP’s and CEO’s were reaping huge bonuses. These guys are being sniffed out and exposed due to a call for fiscal responsibility.
I am not an expert on this, but I do try to look at the bigger picture, and try not to point a finger at one thing and say “That company is corrupt!” I do believe that if and when the Dem’s are in charge, they will make it very difficult for big companies to expand and prosper due to being charged higher taxes. Fewer people will be hired. Less epansion will be realized. More Govt. will be needed to fill the void at more expense to you and I.
For all those that think we need a centerist, middle of the road candidate, you got him. His name is GW Bush.
He ticked off a LOT of conservatives (including myself) by crossing over and adopting a ton of Dem issues and actually passing them. Some examples are the prescription drug program, Ted Kennedy’s education reform, the imigration issue. He spent a ton of time reaching across the aisle. Remember how his approval rating was 60-80% for the 1st year?
Then some SOBs took out over 3000 people and he had a different philosophy of how to handle things. Dems were on board 100% at first, but have changed their positions.
BTW-I wouldnt be too quick to let the Dems off the hook for the war. They had access to the same intelligence as the President and voted to support the wars in Afghan and Iraq. If you are sending kids off to die, you have a responsibliity to actually read intell report and gather the info and make and informed decision. You are not (IMO) allowed to say after the fact that you were misled when the info was sitting on your desk.
Ya i hear ya kriss, i know where your coming from but i can’t make sense out of it when it should be the governments responsibility to do these things not a company. Im probably old school but i still find it hard for honesty here when it comes to a world wide company. I just couldn’t think of the department of defense, war dept. makes it sound like im 100 years old. I do know it takes both sides of the parties to make this country go round or it would be extreem from one side which wouldn’t suit most of the thoughts this country has. Its takes both sides common medium to make it work. Everybody knows it takes taxes to pay the bills for this war were defending ourselves with and the thing that makes me mad is out kids are going to have to foot the bill too when thier not even working. If somebody dose’nt raise taxes how are we going to pay for it following the steps were taking, i can see raising taxes to pay for it, somebody has to pay those bills. Were borrowing from other countries now just to keep it going and the present tax system isn’t producing enough money by far.
We said the same thing after WW 2.
I would hate to think how we would have written history if Hitler and his cronies would have succeeded in converting people’s mindsets.
Saddam was no different in my opinion. My only regret is that the rest of the world did not jump on board. Even now, when the mission is rebuilding! Where is the world? 
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For all those that think we need a centerist, middle of the road candidate, you got him. His name is GW Bush.
He ticked off a LOT of conservatives (including myself) by crossing over and adopting a ton of Dem issues and actually passing them. Some examples are the prescription drug program, Ted Kennedy’s education reform, the imigration issue. He spent a ton of time reaching across the aisle. Remember how his approval rating was 60-80% for the 1st year?
Then some SOBs took out over 3000 people and he had a different philosophy of how to handle things. Dems were on board 100% at first, but have changed their positions.
BTW-I wouldnt be too quick to let the Dems off the hook for the war. They had access to the same intelligence as the President and voted to support the wars in Afghan and Iraq. If you are sending kids off to die, you have a responsibliity to actually read intell report and gather the info and make and informed decision. You are not (IMO) allowed to say after the fact that you were misled when the info was sitting on your desk.
There is some truth in what you say Dave. Alot of it. Bush was doing an excellent job pre-Iraq, IMO. I think he listened to the wrong people (Rumsfeld et. al), and continues to do so in regards to Iraq. Who was at fault for bad information? I don’t know for sure, don’t have that level of access.
I don’t remember a lack of support for going after terrorists in Afgahn, and I still do not see it today.
Hostile ??? Come on Chris I am proud to say, no party controls me or my vote. I vote on what a person stands for, not what the party stands for. I want to keep my guns, and I want abortion(aka murder) made illegal, when used as birth control. I also want to keep more of my paycheck. I don’t mind paying my share, but only if everybody else does.(no loopholes for the rich or non-working) Any body out there that can help me with these ? Am I asking for too much ? I don’t think so.
big g 
I think its good when people look at each candidate for their own merits… right now it does not matter what bush is or isnt.. unless he declares marshal law and makes himself president for life he is out of the picture as a presidential candidate… and right now we need to look at conressional and senatorial candidates… we need to understand our personal priorities and vote accordingly and HOPE that the candidates are NOT lying to us (which sadly is something they often do)… its funny when I hear people stereoptype a party they do so with the features they find least attractive and usually those are found in the most extreme advocates of each party.. those people generally dont get into places of much power because they are so far off on their own tangent they can find little common ground and therefore little support for their agendas…. while stereotyping does make things easier.. its all black or white then…. it does not give you a realistic picture of the political world…..
I like it best when people support their arguments with facts… Like Tuck; I also hate it when someone tells someone what THEY should think… we are all free to make up our own minds… and we are all free to support our beliefs… dont tell me what I should think… I wont tell you what YOU should think… I find a calm rational fact filled debate to be interesting… I find an angry name calling fight to be counter productive… when its over there is a tendency for hard feelings to endure.. and a tendency to think of each other as “idiots and fools”…. its sad when a group of people like us with such common ground in interests cant at least tolerate each others politics… as far as I can see if simple issues are discussed I bet we would not find many of us in disagreement!….
do we want to go broke paying taxes?
Do we want the government to control us?
Do we believe in life, liberty and the pursuite of happiness?
just read the declaration of independence.. its one heck of an amazing bit of writing… America has produced some of the proudest momments of freedom and civil rights this world has ever seen…
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness (or walleyes.. I think they might have used that if they had thought about it.. dont you?)
go ahead and research quotes of liberty… or just follow this link I spose…
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quotes/liberty
read about the statue of liberty….
these are things we all “know”.. and yet perhaps forget.. or maybe in our minds they evolve into something thats not quite what the original was stated as… for me it was refreshing to read these things… like taking a cleansing shower…. and afterward its hard to not feel pride in being an american.. we all need that…. and if we see things that happen in our goverment that makes us not proud… then we do need to speak up…. its all about liberty….
I leave you with this quote from the brilliance of John Adams….
“Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have… a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge, I mean the characters and conduct of their rulers.”
no way I could have said it better myself….
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Everybody knows it takes taxes to pay the bills for this war were defending ourselves with and the thing that makes me mad is out kids are going to have to foot the bill too when thier not even working. If somebody dose’nt raise taxes how are we going to pay for it following the steps were taking, i can see raising taxes to pay for it, somebody has to pay those bills. Were borrowing from other countries now just to keep it going and the present tax system isn’t producing enough money by far.
Well Mossy We all know there is a need for taxes…And I’m more than willing to pay my share,
BUT..
I see WAY too much waste of our hard earned money..even now…money spent on foolish programs and handouts.
Agreed the goverment does do SOME good but that does’nt happen very often..
As far as tax cuts working…. If you missed it on the news our goverment tax reciepts rose dramatically last year..(couple of trillion??)…beating even the whitehouse’s own projection.
I’m by no means a hardcore conservitive.
But I am pro low taxes…. 
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Everybody knows it takes taxes to pay the bills for this war were defending ourselves with and the thing that makes me mad is out kids are going to have to foot the bill too when thier not even working. If somebody dose’nt raise taxes how are we going to pay for it following the steps were taking, i can see raising taxes to pay for it, somebody has to pay those bills. Were borrowing from other countries now just to keep it going and the present tax system isn’t producing enough money by far.
I’d like to know where you got that info, Mossy. First I have heard of the US borrowing to pay for the war.
Fact is the war is costing less than 3% GDP and the GWB tax cuts have generated enough money to pay for the war several times over. Face it. We CAN AFFORD to pay for our freedom.
-J.
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who gave haliburton the power to do this over the war dept.
No one. Haliburton has several contract with the US government. The top 2 are providing gas and food to the troops. Please, just tell me the name of one US company that could do the job? Please. Anyone?
-J.
John, some of these folks are so mired in the hate Bush attitudes there is no reasoning or changing their minds. He isn’t tops on my list of good presidents but I am certain he has done better than the alternative would have.
I would preffer a more conservative President who “walks softly but carries a big stick” But also must not be afraid to use it.
N Korea and Iran may be the place where we may have to use a nuclear weapon. Our Nuclear arsenal is only a detterent if others think we are willing to use them if need be. Lord help us if either of them sells a nuke to a terrorist group. Apeasement and/or surrender is not a viable option to winning the war against terror or the one in Iraq.
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N Korea and Iran may be the place where we may have to use a nuclear weapon. Our Nuclear arsenal is only a detterent if others think we are willing to use them if need be.
Just to see if I am reading the this right, you support pre-emtively using a nuclear weapon in Iran or N. Korea?
I didn’t say “pre-emptive” but it is or could be a possibility. Depends on the circumstances. Lets say for example Iran tests one, then tests the second one in Haifa Isreal…do we stand idly by wait for the thrid one to go off in say….hmmm….Boston or Miami and pound on the podum at the UN and say…stop that now or we’ll place MORE sanctions against you.
Don’t mean to hijack the thread…just answering what was asked.
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