To Cull or not to Cull?

Just thought I’d throw this out there.
As an avid tournament Fisherman (competition junkie) I was wondering what any of you thought about culling fish or High Grading as they refered to it in an Outdoor News article I just finished?
Do you think Tournament fishermen do all the damage to the resource we get the rap for?
Do that many weekend fishermen catch that many fish on average that this is even an issue?
I bet Jon J. can even find a link to this article, he’s soooo good at that!

Hey Hooks, If you are referring to what the DNR wanting a no cull law due to the dead fish floating around on Mille Lacs this past year then my comment would have to be that those fish were not floating around due to fisherman culling fish. They were floating around due to a very tight less than 2 inch slot limit [ 14” “under” 16”] as about 95% of the fish had to be returned to the water no matter how badly they were gut hooked. I do believe that tournament fisherman learn how to take care of their fish as they need those fish to be alive and healthy at the end of the day for the weigh in. Just my 2 cents worth. Thanks for the question Bud. Bill

Hooks, I did not find the story on the Outdoor News website. Could not find it on the DNR site either…??? I have seen it popping up all over this evening. I don’t doubt it’s real, just can’t find it anywhere… I made the following post on FTR…

First off, I searched the Minnesota DNR website and found no mention of this subject what so ever. I would like to know the source of this information…… I do have a big problem with the opening statements blaming hook and release mortality on Culling laws. I doubt very much any 14-16 inch walleyes were tossed back into Mille Lacs for a bigger 14-16 inch fish this last year!

Second, I support the change 100%. In fact I thought it was already law! It is the Right Thing To Do!! It is currently illegal to Cull on border waters like the St Croix and Mississippi River. Make it easy to remember the law and keep it consistent everywhere.

Most reputable Walleye Tournaments have gone to no cull even if allowed by law. Why do bass tournaments need to cull? Make that decision to keep the fish or not! It’s part of the game, part of the strategy, keeps it interesting!

My 2 cents worth.

Jon J.

Sorry, have to disagree with you on this one. I can’t speak for competitive walleye fishing, but as a bass tournament angler I absolutely hate the no-cull rule! While it might be some sort of strategy to some, it’s also a form of torture! Why punish an angler with such an absurd rule? In my opinion, it does nothing but create a way for some anglers to cheat by culling and others to be punished by obeying the rules. As professional bass anglers, we do a great job of catch-and-release, so where’s the problem of doing it in the boat? I baby my fish, just to make sure they stay alive! Why should I have to stop fishing during a tournament, when I’m on fish? It’s a stupid rule. The whole point of competitive fishing is who can catch the most and the biggest, not who can guess which fish to keep in the livewell.
No other state institutes such a rule for bass fishing and there’s a reason. Get rid of the no-cull for bass fishing altogether, PLEASE!

Good point Jon, as walleye guys, we’ve been held to this rule for so long that I fogot it was even an issue. There’s no doubt in my mind that tournament anglers in general do a great job of caring for their fish… it would be stupid not to. Most studies I’ve seen on survival rates for bass released after tournaments to be very high… but not so good for the walleyes.

You really can’t make this a flat no cull rule across the board. It is a well known fact that the survival rate for bass released during/after tounaments is in the high 90 percentile. For walleyes, the no cull rule is probably a good idea. Dead/unhealthy fish are a disaster at weigh-in for the bass guys so they really do their utmost to take care of the fish. Seems the majority of walleye tournament guys dont think twice anymore about no cull??
Chris Beeksma

This is a great discussion topic! I’m all for no cull at certain times of the year, say from mid May until October 1. Specifically to your question, do I think tourney fisherman do more damage to a fishery, heck no. I’m betting the average weekend fisherman doesn’t have nearly as sophisticated equipment as most tourney anglers. High speed fresh water pickup, dual pumps on the live wells, etc…. I do believe that tourney fishing may be required to put money back into the fishery in the near future due to some negative attitudes towards tournaments in general.

Do weekend fisherman catch that many fish, some do. I’ve watched spots get raped by locals at certain times of the year. I used to be in that crowd. Education from sites like this and maybe a little maturity have since changed my ways.

As for the bass fisherman, I would have to see some hard data proving these fish are more tolerant to the stress caused from livewells/catching. I say do whatever is best for the fish.

As a tourney fisherman, the no cull rule makes for a very strategic tournament. Some guys are gamblers, some are not. It stinks to catch that 27″ fish if you already have your two over, believe me, I know. I look at it as just another part of the competition that must be factored into your strategy. A little luck doesn’t hurt either.

Couple thoughts…

1) if you are allowed to cull-and already have your limit, arent you over your limit every time you catch a fish and are evaluating it versus others?

2) I realize that this is pretty rare, but say you are fishing a bass tourney and culling is allowed and you are punished for dead fish. Then a fish dies in your possession-wouldnt you toss it back and replace it with fish that may be smaller but doesnt carry a penalty?

3) Have you ever been fishing with someone who catches a fish early in the day or the night before and then they have it die. Then fish for 6-8 hours and the bite gets hot at the end of the night so they replace their dead fish w/ a live fresh one?

4) have you ever NEEDED to cull? How bad is it if you take home 6 15-18″ eyes and have to release a 20-28″ fish. Do you really need that extra 4 lbs of fillets if you are already taking home 8-12 lbs?

I guess that I think that fishing laws should be based on what is best for the fishery and not what tournament anglers prefer. However, this seems like a non issue. There isnt a problem now, so what are they trying to fix? Political correctness or “feel good” laws are no way to run a state.

As I said, I believe it’s the right thing to do. Not only for the weekend fisherman, but tourney guys too. In fact, if anything, the tournament fishermen should be held to a higher standard. Meaning, if the DNR choose not to change the law for everyone, they should look at issuing all tourny permits as no-cull.

I don’t buy the argument that “Guys will do it anyway”. If you have problems with cheaters, deal with the cheating problem. Don’t blame it on laws you don’t agree with !

And DaveB, great post. We are not just talking bass, but all fish. I agree with the scenarios you tossed out there. No cull laws eliminate all those gray areas for everyone!

J.

I really think we’re comparing apples to oranges. During my tournament career, I’ve rarely seen bass die from being caught. We’re not gut-hooking with minnows and nightcrawlers! However, if they do die during the tournament you are NOT allowed to cull that particular fish. Secondly, where are the numbers to support a no-cull for bass fishing? The mortality of bass during tournaments has got to be close 99%. I really believe the reason the Upper Mississippi River doesn’t get as many big-time bass tournaments (FLW, Bassmasters) is because of the stupid no-cull rule. It’s a shame, because it’s a fantastic fishery and the communities are missing out on a gold mine! Take away the tournament fishermen, watch your hotels, restaurants, etc take a huge hit. Why do I, or any other bass angler, want to spend thousands of dollars each year by conforming to a stupid “strategy.” The moment they allow live bait for bass tournaments, then I’ll be all for a no-cull rule!

One other quick note. If you think weekend meat-eating anglers would adhere to a no-cull rule for bass fishing, I think you’re being overly optimistic. The only time this rule could really be enforced would be with tournament anglers, who ironically, are the ones REALLY keeping the fish alive!

I don’t think you’ll get an arguement from me or anyone else on the difference in survival rates between walleyes and bass. Water temps hit 65 degrees and you even look sideways at a walleye and it croaks. I’ve caught released bass with hooks imbedded in their gullets, fishing line coming out of their anus, major damage done to the lips and face, caused by treble hooks on crankbaits most likely, and these fish seem strong and healthy.

Has anyone seen an official stance on this from the DNR? JOn, is it on the website yet?

This is a issue of what is best for the Fishery not the fisherman. I’m reading posts saying Tournament anglers are the ones who bring all this money and economic support to communities as well as are the ones Really keeping their fish alive? While calling reqgular fisherman Weekend Meat eating anglers. We need to be on the side of the fishery which in the light of modern fishing is put under a great deal of strain. We need to restrain ourselves from what WE feel is best and what truely is best for the fishery and fisherman as a whole. Culling is a idea I’m against for the simple fact of its hard on the resource. I am a avid angler who as I think all of us here are and want great opportunities for me and fellow fisherman when there out and future generations. There is many laws we see changing in this area each year size restrictions, slots, reduced harvest, etc, which again is due to more strain being put on the resources we have. It is not a matter of 99% or 70% or 60% its about being responsible. As far as tourneys go I have read articles of new technology of Cameras in boats where at the begining of the day each angler is giving a unique ruler to measure their fish and this is recorded and a witness is in the boat to attest allowing for immediate return of these fish to the water now that is a idea anglers could work on implementing more into tourneys. I do love to eat fish but only what I eat immediately the rest always go back and the majority of the time all I do is catch and release. I stress to everyone to be on the side of the resource and help the state sustain our great fishery….Have a great weekend……..

Sports Anchor,

On your behalf I’d like to state a clarification. I think you meant to say the survival rate is close to 99%, not the mortality rate. That’s the death toll……………just in case anyone might misunderstand your point.

Carry on!

This is a great subject to mull over! James, I have not found anything on the DNR website related to this regulation change. However, there are several changes we should all be aware of. Here is a link to the Mn DNR. This link will take you to the “News Release” page. I check this page often.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/news/releases/index.html

I have to be honest here and say that even if survival rates in Bass tourneys were consistently 100%, culling don’t sit right with me. I don’t like it!

Come on Bass guys, educate me, change my mind. Why should not only bass tourney guys, but everyone be able to cull? Do you guy really feel culling everything from bluegills to bass is right? Do you want special treatment above the regular guy? I truly am cunfused as to why this is even an issue!

J.

Stillakid2,

Thanks for the correction, I misspoke (mis-emailed).

Let me just clarify for everyone who’s posted thus far… My opinion about the no-cull rule is strictly regarding bass only! As far as walleyes, bluegills, whatever…. I’m just simply not familiar with the rest of the fish, so I have no opinion. You want to limit your fishing time with those species, go ahead.
In all of the no-cull tournaments I’ve been a part of, never once, not one single time, did I ever hear from angler how much he liked the “strategy” nor did anyone just sing the praises about how its helps save the fish. Give me a break! Perhaps we should all join PETA and pour paint on fur coats and help free Willy as well! Every bass tournament angler I’ve ever talked to HATES the no-cull, in part I believe, because its unneccesary. For any bass tournament angler who disagrees, please chime in!
In response to CRB’s post…. I am for the fishery, but I’m also for the fisherman (because I am one). As I said earlier, show me the evidence that without a no-cull rule the bass fishery goes to hell in a handbasket. Tournament anglers are all about keeping the fishery great, because its where we try to make our money and thrive on competition.
The thing I can’t stand is the weekend meat-eating angler who sits anchored up with a bobber gut-hooking every fish (including bass) and stringing them over the side of the boat with a complete disregard for size or quantity. If you think it doesn’t happen a lot, you’re naive.
Bass anglers, especially tournament fishermen, are all about keeping the fish alive to catch another day. The no-cull isn’t necessary and it isn’t pleasant, so WHY DO IT?
Please chime in fellow bass tournament anglers! LONG LIVE CULLING!!!!!!!!!

I think the best tournament scenario is to allow anglers for example to weigh 5 fish but be allowed to keep say 7 or 8.This gives a guy a couple of fish to upgrade his bag.I have never agreed with a case of weigh 5 and only allowed to keep 5.I think if you at least have a few fish to upgrade with that is a pretty fair deal.I have also fished some tourneys that you could cull all you want and I must say it was fun to have all your options as long as you know the fish going back are in great shape.I do have to say though if you put a no cull on a team event it will not matter cause most will cull anyways it is just the human nature unfortunatly.This is an interesting topic no dought and their is many different angles to look at for sure.I think another difference between a bass survival and a walleye survival is the waters we fish and travel.Alot of bass fishing is done in bays,coves, and marinas in calmer water.For the most part walleyes are chased in heavy seas alot of times and that can really affect how a fish fairs in a well.

Let’s keep in mind that this is a law that affects all fishermen all species!

Ok, Minnesota just dropped the crappie limits from 15 to 10, sunfish from 30 to 20. If I’m out there fishing a lake in the spring and see someone limit out on crappie and start upgrading, I’m going to have a ca-niption! You limit out and you are done fishing! Simple. Fair. The best thing for the resource. I don not see how Minnesota can go to these new regs without implementing a no cull law.

Now, I know you are talking about Bass and tournaments. But why should bass guys be treated any different than a “Meat Eating” weekender who keeps a legal limit for the table? I think tourney guys (or guys who are like minded) need to re-think the “US” vs “Them” mentality. Bad all around in my book. How would you feel if Mr. “Meat Eater” started tossing back gut hooked, bleeding 15 inch bass for 4-pounders? Just a thought.

You are not posting anything that has changed my mind, and may well be putting a sour taste on many peoples tongues. In order to get along, we all need to play the game by the same rules.

The Devils Advocate here,

J.

I thought this was an arena to post opinions, even if they are different than some others. From now on I guess I’ll just bide my sour-tasted tongue. But know this… there are many, many anglers, in particular bass fisherman, out there opposed to a no-cull, and for good reason.
To me, it sounds like an awful lot like some are worried the sky is falling. From what I understand, this no-cull idea stems from dead walleyes popping up on the shores of Milles Lacs, which come as a direct or indirect cause of another DNR regulation.
Once again, show me the evidence that culling is a threat to the population of largemouth and smallmouth bass. I am a bass angler and I only know what’s best for me, and that’s the freedom to cull. If we are really concerned for all the fish, perhaps we should just limit the catch to one fish per person, or better yet, abolish fishing altogether in the state. I can guarantee you the fishery will thrive and I’ll head for the border!

Happy New Year, God Bless and most important, practice catch and release!

This is definetly the place to post opinions! What I meant about the sour taste comment is there are a lot of people who think like myself. If you truly believe in your position, calling people “meat eater” and dividing fishermen into two classes, is doing nothing to promote your cause!

If you truly think bass should be excluded from a cull law in Minnesota, you have to “Sell” that idea a lot better than you have so far!

Jon J.

Sports_anchor, Jon and anyone else who want to post your opinions are welcome here.
I love your conviction, but now we should share them with the DNR. In the article is a link to let them know your thoughts and opinions. Tell your friends to give theirs too. They are asking for input let give them some and see where it goes.
The link or address to write is
Linda Erickson-Eastwood
Fisheries Program Manager
Minnesota DNR – Section of Fisheries
500 Lafayette, Box 12
St Paul, MN 55155-4012
email = [email protected]
phone = 651-296-0791
fax = 651-297-4916

Thanks Hooks… Hoggie

From the posts that I have seen on FTR, here and other sites, the only ones that seem to be bothered by this rule are bass tourney fisherman. We have 2 million fishermen in MN. The idea that we should have no cull for 1000 tourney bass fisherman is outrageous.

But as I have stated previously-how often are you in a circumstance where you want to cull, even if it is allowed. The only logical case I can think of where the other 1,999,000 regular MN anglers would want to cull is if they have their limit and then catch a trophy and want to mount it.

This seems like a non issue to me. If you feel so strongly about preserving your current tourney rules why werent you equally outspoken about how all the slot limits being implemented on all of the premier walleye tournament lakes??? Lets try not to be hypocritical.

Great idea hooks! Could you post a link to the article?

Hey all,

This is definitely the place to share your opinions and present arguements in an effort to state a position… maybe even sway a few people over to a different way of thinking. This topic is a heated one. Most fishing sites had this topic pop up around the same time that we did and I followed the discussion on these other sites. Most had their discussions go so out of control that the threads ended up being deleted. I applaud everyone’s ability to let their convictions shine through while maintaining a level of civility so hard to find on the web these days.

I agree with sports anchor on the subject, that its foolish to establish a “blanket rule” without knowing/having evidence of what its going to accomplish. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see walleyes and bass are just plain different fish in terms of “survivablity”. For instance the comments about mortality due to catching fish out of 25ft + of water is much more applicable to walleyes – look at the bass tournaments out west the majority of the fish most of the year are caught from depths anywhere from 30ft to 70ft and there has been no report of noticably higher mortality on those tournaments. All species have different “durability” qualities I’m pretty sure you could throw a carp out on the shore for half an hour and it would swim away when you threw it back . Another example of blanket rules that don’t make sense is the closed season here in wisconsin to protect “spawning” fish by the first week in may most of the walleyes & muskies have spawned most years in most parts of the state, but I can pretty much guarantee that no bass are ever finished spawning anywhere in the state by the first of may.

However I will also make the comment that the primary goal making regulations should not be to “make tournaments more fun” it should be to maintain/improve the quality of the fishing. If they have reasonable evidence to prove/suggest that having a no cull rule FOR BASS will improve the fishing FOR BASS, then I’m all for it. If not institute the rule for species for which it will be beneficial.

One last comment I will make on the subject of “tournament guys” blaming the “meat hunters” is this (as much as we don’t neccesarily want to admit it). Bass tournaments are a big part of the reason “meat hunters” can take so many fish. It makes most any tournament angler scowl to somebody keeping a 5 bass limit for the table, but if you wanted to reduce limits to 2 fish or something the same guy would also probably cry about it. I know that in the sturgeon bay area there has been a movement to try and get a 1 fish 22″ trophy rule (like Chequamegon bay) to keep people from overharvesting shallow spawning fish in the spring, but there are a couple of big tournaments there one in the spring and one in the fall that draw big crowds and that is a lot of the opposition to the change.

To close I want to say its the DNR’s job to establish laws for the protection/betterment of our fisheries, but as anglers its our job to bring to their attention need for changes etc. to their rules so DO take an active role in protecting & improving the quality of fishing.

I had actually heard that this was brought up initially a couple months ago. We discussed it at our last bass club meeting and there definitely was some flared tempers. I fish both bass and walleye tourneys and would have to say I don’t have a problem if a no-cull rule is enacted. It also would be fine with me if things are left status quo. As Brett alluded to, if it does go no-cull, a tourney director could legally allow up to 12 bass in the boat for a team event and the best 6, 8, 10 or whatever could be weighed. We’ve done the same thing in recent years in various walleye circuits in Mn, i.e. 7 in the boat and weigh 5. You could keep your first 5 and still be able to upgrade 2. I believe there are states around us that are all ready no-cull. It would be nice to hear from someone there.

I completely understand Sports Anchor’s side. If someone was upgrading the size of there fish they plan to take home to eat, I would be 100% against that. A combination of the survival rates, the fact that tournament anglers are fishing catch and release, and the fact that current fish size and populations seem to be getting better make me believe culling isn’t very harmful to the overall fishery.

To daveb
1)When culling in tournaments, an angler would never be over his limit. If the legal limit is 6 fish, the tournament limit would be 5. That way the angler can keep his first 5 fish and when he gets his 6th he could release the smallest in his bag.
2)Tournament rules usually always state that it is illegal to release a dead fish.
3)I have never witnessed that.
4)I have never culled while guiding or fishing for fun. I will always cull in a tournament if legal.

I agree as Sports Anchor does I’m sure that laws should be based on what is best for the fishery and not for tournament anglers, but if numbers show fish populations are not being hurt, why should laws be changed? I agree that this seems like a feel good law or something as simple as it’s been this way for so long, it should be changed, much like limits.

Jon, I do not agree that tournament anglers should be held to any different standards. I believe everyone has the same right to use the resource. Also, if it doesn’t sit right with you or anyone else, that is no reason to limit someone else. I do agree that the “Guys will do it anyway” line just doesn’t jive. If I as a tournament angler was worried about competitors cheating, I would not be fishing that event.

Mike-in case I was a little unclear, I dont think that they should have enacted the law. It is a “feel good” law that will have zero actual effect. I was trying to through out some ideas about why culling is bad. You probably have never thrown out a dead fish-nor anyone you fish with (it has always been illegal to release a harmed fish). However-remember tail clipping on Mille Lacs this summer??? Several tourney anglers knowingly broke the law because there was enough money at stake. I realize that these guys were the exceptions, but they are out there.

Here’s a link to a typed copy from FTR. This is a commentary from the Outdoor New’s Paper.

http://www.fishtheriver.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tourneys&Number=26357&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

I wasn’t going to get involved with this. I don’t have an opinion or even care either way. It looks like what has been said against no-cull can be summarized as:

1. It turns keeping fish into a gamble.
2. Fishing should be about who can catch the most and largest fish.
3. Riding in the livewell has no detectable deleterious effect on (certain types of) fish.
4. Anglers should not be punished for the randomness of the order of their catch.

But – If those are the arguments for it, then this baffles me:

In reply to:

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If someone was upgrading the size of there fish they plan to take home to eat, I would be 100% against that.

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Aren’t all the arguments that have been put forth just as valid when used by the dreaded weekend meat-hunters? Do the pro-cullers on this site get to sit in a padded chair and decide who is worthy of the practice?