Who’s 
did you pull that info from? Real wages are not up, housing starts are down 20%, the housing market is down and considered to be on the verge of a real bust,Low vehicle sales are preciselly why Ford and GM are having problems. When was the last time you read a newspaper?
I am a bond trader and manage 10 billion. I am getting this US Govt.
Housing starts have slowed, but still red hot.
Car sales are strong, car makers are struggling do to costly employee benefits. Car makers dont make any money selling cars anymore, they are finance companies. It has been that way for years.
I dont read papers, I dont care for a reporter’s filter. I choose to go directly to the source.
The real truth…….
Unemployment:
http://www.thinkandask.com/news/jobs.html
Wage growth:
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_10292004
Home sales:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAFuT8YFNJQk&refer=home
Housing starts:
http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/newresconst.pdf
Durable goods orders
http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/m3/
http://www.wdetfm.org/article.php?id=1301
I disagree with your rationaled examples.
Do you want to re-word that yellowdog?
Keep it civil!
TBO,
Don’t have a lot of time right now, but your first link is bogus. To compare the US unemployment rate to Europe is not correct. Not to mentiopn 5.5 % is lower than all of the Clinton years. Here is something a little more relevant.
US Unemployment.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=2385429
I’m sure when I have time I can counter the other links too. Just busy today…
-J.
I am sure you can dance around all the links, Jon. That makes for a good republican….doing the dance I mean.
Yah your right Jon. Sometimes my passion gets the better of my mouth. I apoligize to Dave and the others on this thread. I think I’ll lay off for awhile. 
ahhh.. truth… such a tender subject… I think we can all find our won truth… if you lost your job and cant find a new job the economy is bad.. if you have a great job.. then its good… I have a great job now… but on the horizon it looks very possible we could be outsourced over seas.. then I would be in a very bad spot… 50+ years old.. unemployed, with a specialty in mainframe IS…. chances of a replacing my job would be VERY slim…. and Im not ready for retirement.. on top of that I have a serious health condition.. though the good news there….. is maybe I wont live long enough to be unemployed!.. 
but the bad news is if I do.. I wont be able to afford health care and that will be that no doubt…. so I wont join the ranks of the unemployed… more like the ranks of the deceased…. not that Im complaining…. life is what it is… and hopefully it wont be that bleak….
SOrry to hear about all that Ken. If you are unemployed, don’t worry, they only count you unemployed for a short time, then they don’t count you any longer…that’s how they keep those numbers looking so good. After your unemployment runs out, instantaniously you are no longer unemployed. 
Wow,
jobs are plentiful in my area and not just minimum wage jobs. I drive by employers every day with “help Wanted” signs posted. The younger folks with a decent work ethic and education can easily find employment. As for us over 50 guys it is tougher. But at least in the counties north of Milwaukee there are plenty of jobs available.
Regarding the housing market it has cycles and can’t be great consistently. However, it is hanging in there and I remember the Jimmy Carter days when interest rates were well into double digits and literally no one could afford a home.
TBO,
Your comments are quite amuzing. Why do I have a sneaky suspicion that you are a die-hard republican, just trolling to get feathers ruffled?
Quote:
I am sure you can dance around all the links, Jon. That makes for a good republican….doing the dance I mean.
If anyone cares to check the above link, it is the direct source of the US unemployment numbers. No other way to tilt the facts.
-J.
Well, hang on to your hat, because those “sign in the window” jobs that pay $6.00 an hour, and this failing economy will bring back those Jimmy Carter days…just in time for the democrates to have to deal with it.
Quote:
Well, hang on to your hat, because those “sign in the window” jobs that pay $6.00 an hour, and this failing economy will bring back those Jimmy Carter days…just in time for the democrates to have to deal with it.
The US Economy was on the skids 2 years before Clinton left office. Bush had his own mess to clean up and has done an outstanding job considering 9/11. (Liberals like to forget about that one.)
Gary you sly dog………quiet, these guys think I actually care about this crap.
Yes he has Jon………
TBO:
What is failing in our government, other than the education???
That seems to be the only mess on our hands right now (the education) because of the special interest groups skewing politcal spin on our children.
You maybe right because the economy does run in cycles. With the exeption of Jimmy Carter, I often wonder if the Administration, be it Democrat or Republican has much impact on the economy.
As for the $6.00 an hour jobs, once you get out of Milwaukee County, there are few minimum wage jobs.
Quote:
Well, hang on to your hat, because those “sign in the window” jobs that pay $6.00 an hour, and this failing economy will bring back those Jimmy Carter days…just in time for the democrates to have to deal with it.
TBO;
being that we both are from the “metro” area of Minneapolis/St.Paul……..who is paying $6.00/hr???? Even McDonalds is paying more than that! AND that job you don’t even need a highschool education.
Simple factory work in Hastings at entry level, no experience, again……no highschool education, is paying $10/hr PLUS health/dental as a start wage. Again, this is the starting wage, with wage increases quite often the first 12 months, giving the employee opportunity to make $12/hr if they work hard and deserve it. English isn’t even required to work at this factory, so it is a huge benefit for our new, legal immigrants to this county, trying to get a new start on life.
You are right Gary, I should have said $10.00 per hour. So lets break down that $10.00 per hour. A 40 hour a week gives the wage earner $400 per week/$1200 per month. The state and federal taxes/FICA (alone)is 34%…we now have $792. If you have a one bedroom/studio apartment, you pay (conservatively..I hate that word) $600. per month…now we have $192. If you have any utilities at all they will be (again conservatively)$50. per month…now we are at $142…If you are able to ride the bus to this job, don’t own a car, it will cost you $2.00 per day + 20 days per month…$40. transportation…we now have $100. Food for a month @ 3.00 per day(not getting fat on that)will be $90….now we are at $10. If you can save that $10. per month for 6 months, you will have $60. to buy a shirt, and pair of pants so you can look appropriate at work…….come on, do you think anyone can actually live on $10.00 per hour…the answer is no…but you can get all those $10. per hour jobs you want…..the only problem with that is that there are only 24 hours in a day, and you can only work so many hours before your can’t work….then you are unemployed, for a short time, then instantaniously, after your unemployment runs out, you are employed again…according to the department of labor…right Jon!
But TBO, thanks to GWB, you wont pay any income taxes until you make $12-16/hour depending on if you have kids or not!
Your comments do get to the silliness of the minumum wage arguement. Why shoot for $7.15 if that isnt even close to a living wage? We either should have any at all, or make it $14 or so.
The dirty little secret is that very few people actually spend their entire lives on one income bracket. Most start out dirt poor and through hard work and promotions work their way up to middle to upper middle class. It is not a lottery, it is long marathon of acquiring skills and experience that makes you more valuable in the marketplace.
Quote:
Your comments do get to the silliness of the minumum wage arguement. Why shoot for $7.15 if that isnt even close to a living wage? We either should have any at all, or make it $14 or so.
Also, every single person in the US who earned a taxable income paid less federal taxes than they did under the Clinton administration.
-J.
$12/hr breaks down to a take home of $754 every 2 weeks. That is $19604 a year. TIMES 2!!!! Husband/Wife. Work opposite shifts, so they don’t need day-care (nobody said life was easy, did they!!!!!!)
That is $39206 a year, TAKE HOME!!!!! If you want, I can give you a little higher number due to overtime, both of my clients work on weekends, overtime when given the opportunity.
See Joe, I have 2 clients (husband and wife) who both make actually $12/hr and between the two of them, they are taking home over $40k a year because of tax relief due to the amount of children they have. They don’t have day care, because one works 7-3 and the other works 3-11. The kids are in school during the “shift change” so no day care is needed.
I’m helping these people today, qualify for a nice home to purchase in Hastings. They will purchase a very nice home.
Point is, IF you are willing to make sacrifices and IF you are willing to “work”, you can make it through this world on $10 to $12 hr. THAT is the average wage that people without highschool diploma or the ability to speak English “fluently” can do. By the way, they don’t have a brand new car, but they both have cars and they are reliable.
Any more questions as to how bad our economy is for the “below average” income earner? It appears that IF they work hard, they can buy a house!!!! What is wrong with that?
If a “weak” economy means not having 3 cell phones, restricted to brewing your own coffee instead of running to Caribou, having to make your own lunch from left-overs instead of running to Panera Bread shop, avoiding the internet and cable and READING a newspaper or “God-forbid” going to the LIBRARY to use the internet for FREE!, then I guess our ecomony sucks.
To briefly respond to TBOs links:
1) Jobs, if more just arent working, why are payrolls and jobs created still growing. Again, you can try and write off the employment picture piece by piece, but as a whole, you cant explain all the goods news without acknowledging that the economy is strong
2) Home sales decline, if you dip from an all time high but are still well above the 5, 10 and 20 year average, are you doing well or in recession?
3) Wage GROWTH decreasing, not wages decreasing. Wage growth adjusted to inflation dipped negative 2 quarters ago, why? Inflation increased-much because of energy costs of $60-75/barrel of oil. Wages still growing, no denying that (even in the face of higher benefit costs/employee that is not included in the number but is obvious in the employment cost index).
4) Housing starts-see #2, still very strong, just lower than all time highs
5) Manufacture orders down-just READ your article, AFTER two consecutive monthly INCREASES, these numbers (like many) are volitile based on a few large orders month to month. The trend and recent data is all very strong.
6&7) Auto sales, 14.9 million units/month during Clinton era, 16.8 million during Bush years. Last month 16.1, July 17.2. Just because people are buying more Toyotas/Hondas and less GM/Fords doesnt mean the economy is bad.
you know, spin is alright, but …oh well, you get the last word, that means you win………… 
me
I am not getting into this one. 
But you know where I stand. 
I’m no expert or even a novice when it comes to politics, but I know this is incorrect. TBO, I thought you were a teacher???? The rest of the US is employed for 52 weeks a year not 36. 
Quote:
$400 per week/$1200 per month.
I come up with $1,733.33 per month using 4.333 weeks per month on the average. 52 weeks / 12 months = 4.333 weeks per month.
$400 * 4.333 = $1,733.33. That is and additional $533.33 to add per month for stuff like 
.
A thoughful and accurate response. Anyone with a decent education, high school and above can easily make $25K to $30K per year, and some much higher.
My daughters both have college degrees and one has her masters from Marquette. I won’t quote their salaries, but the one with just the college degree will probably be making six figures in a few years.
My son went to tech school and his income is around $50K as an auto mechanic. He does a bit of work on the side, both boats and cars, so his income is even higher. His wife started a house cleaning service early this year and will easily contribute another $25K. As for TBO’s comment about taxes he is dead wrong. At the income level he quoted Federal Taxes would not be that high.
Simply put, if you are willing to work you can do well.
gentlemen! gentlemen!… please… please!… all of this means nothing if your not happy…. rich, poor, employed, unemployed, left, right,… up, down… all means nothing if you dont live your life fully…..
today is a beautiful day.. the fall color is coming on pretty fast here…. enjoy everyday like it could be your last….. its the best way to truly live….
these debates… do they make you happy? I hope so…. for your sakes… but it seems to cause dissent and tension…. even perhaps anger at times… its just not worth it…. agree to disagree…. America is a great and wonderful place to live… Im sure we all agree on that…. is it perfect? what is? but life here is good… surely its tougher for some than others… sometimes its their fault its tough.. sometimes its not…. but we all live in the same beautiful world… we all draw each breath and hope to draw another…. we all have dreams and we live in a place where we are free to strive for them….. I wish only the best for you all… Ive always considered everyone here to be part of my “family”… and yeah.. my family does fight from time to time… but they also know they are family and in the end thats what matters most…..
I myself have been occasionally drawn into these things… and have always regretted it… I prefer to think good things about people… and it can be hard to do if you find yourself in heavy disagreement… but all the people are good people.. Ive met many of you personally and have not met a bad one yet….
well.. anyway.. for sure thats my 2 cents worth.. I spose its not worth much more than that… but I just wanted to be the peacemaker if I could… lets all take a deep breath.. look at the fall color…. and dream of fishing…..(or better yet lets go do it!)…..
and if Ive angered anyone with this.. or in the past… please forgive me… I knew not what I was doing/saying….
Easy for you to say, I don’t have the luxury of a Digital SLR Camera like you.. ..but I do have a couple of #7 FireTiger Raps that will be trolling on the River in about 10 minutes……
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