Ethanol use in outboard motors…whadya think?

I recently read an article in the Wall Street Journal that just scared the hell out of me. They were talking about ethanol use in boats, and the really bad things it does to outboard motors. Their reasons were these: boat fuel tanks are vented, unlike vehicle fuel tanks. Apparently, ethanol will absorb the moisture out of the air, and in turn this is turning fuel in the tanks into globs of gel, and you know where it goes from there. With our humidity here in NE, I can imagine how this could be real bad.

I’ve been using it recently, but think that might come to an abrupt halt. We have ethanol plants going up EVERYwhere here in NE, and sometimes I wonder why. It doesn’t seem like the price is any different. Seems like it’s just a bonus to farmers, that’s it.

So, with that info….what do you guys think about all this? Should be scared as boat owners? Or is this all just a bunch of hooey?

I don’t worry too much because I put a can of Sea Foam in every tank of gas. I don’t know if it has any merit. I guess my Dealer said to avoid ethanol in my Yamaha…but they didn’t say I couldn’t use it either. I guess I don’t run it in mine. I think in my owner’s manuel it says something about it too.

Yes, Krisko is right. You are not suppossed to run ethanol in boat engines. I was told by two different boat dealers not to run it. Make a few calls around town and I am sure you will find a ethanol-free station. I am lucky, and have one very close. Just my .02! Good luck

Yes, it will absorb water. However, I never heard of gelling before, just “weak” fuel or “bad gas”.

The biggest problem with ethynol is the heat, dryness, and that ethynol eats most gasket material used in carbs. I “assume” that today’s motors are running a different type of gasket/seal material that is friendly to ethynol, but that is a guess.

Yes, that was something I forgot to mention. I had seen in other places where they didn’t recommend any type of alcohol in outboards because it would not be good in the long run on the fuel lines and such. Usually, I run the boat enough that I don’t have to worry about it sitting around too long. But I don’t know…I might try to stay ethanol/alcohol free in the future.

I don’t, and won’t ever…

I think a couple things….

First of all, I know this has been discussed, and I fairly certain in my Owners manual it talks about ethanol, it said you could run up to 10% no problem. Yup just checked said you can run 10% no problem.

Here in mn I’ll suspect 90% of the boats on the lakes are running atleast the 10% ethanol that MN decided to put in our gas for us, big deal, you don’t see people blowing up motors and such and blaming it on ethanol, it been here for a good 10 years or so.

There is also the side that when you can find the non ethanol gas it is, 1 more expensive and it’s also 92+ Octane, and I always run the rated octane in all my motors higher octane is not better gas, nor any better for you engine, it’s just higher octane, which most modern engines do not need on a daily basis. I will run high octane on my truck when towing, because I seem to get some pinging, atleast when it’s really hot out, that’s all “preimum” gas is good for, resistance to detenation.

Yeah there is issues with gas absorbing water, in my current research (new boat and motor, so I do a lot of reading up on it) It’s best suggested people run water seperators (rancor) filter, which most boat don’t have, I think this will help ensure any issues stay out of the motor. Seafoam probably won’t hurt ya either, though I’m mostly running yamaha’s ringfree.

All that being said ethanol is not perfect or flawless, the biggest two issues I’ve seen ethanol related is first off, ethanol tends to deteriate certain types of rubber/fuel hoses and Gaskets, I once had a problem with an old boat that the mechanic said was related to ethanol, said the ethanol ate the gaskets, new carb kit and it ran as good as it ever did (when It chose to run ) So yeah you should probably be careful if your motor is pre 90’s atleast IMHO to be on the safer side, given that I’d try to not run an ethanol blend myself. Secondly ethanol does not have the same energy as gas, it takes more to get the same power in any stock motor out there I’m sure 10% ethanol is not close enough to ever pose an issue, the car will probably use a tad more gas, and you’ll never see the difference anywhere. Now in my case, my car is fairly modified, up around 65 hp from stock, with stock injectors and fuel pump, I know because I have the ability to watch it, my injector duty cycle is running very high under high engine load, so I’m pretty much out of fuel for my car, and say I went to run something higher in ethanol in my car, I would be inserious danger of running my car too lean. Though I haven’t done it others have, but again my car is pretty far from stock (30% or so up in power).

The more I learn about ethanol, the more I actually like it, right now it’s “cheaper” (there is some questionable math in teh price of ethanol cost…) and it’s high octane, in my world with a modified car, that needs to run high octane, it’s certainly possible to make the changes needed to run ethanol (e85 even) safely on a daily basis for around $500 or so(for my car anyway), do able, it’s been done and people are doing it.

It’s not all bad, but it will require some changes, probably no different than taking lead out of gas.

Anyways this is just how I see it.

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Yes, that was something I forgot to mention. I had seen in other places where they didn’t recommend any type of alcohol in outboards because it would not be good in the long run on the fuel lines and such. Usually, I run the boat enough that I don’t have to worry about it sitting around too long. But I don’t know…I might try to stay ethanol/alcohol free in the future.

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Gasahol is actually mentioned too (atleast that what they call it) Talking about a blend of gasoline and methonal in that case they reccomend you do not use it at all, it mentions ethanol seperatly and specfically.

Never use ethanol in boat engines where it does not explicitly state in the manual you may use it. This means a lot if not all boat motors before 1990. I’d stay away from it if at all possible.

Ethanol is crap. Using 10% ethanol gas in a ’96 vehicle produces a consistent 30% drop in gas mileage. Even if 91 octane is move expensive than the 10% ethanol, it’s no-where close to 30% more expensive.

In WI you can still find unleaded without 10% ethanol.

A thought to ponder: When ethanol at 10% reduces a car’s gas mileage by 30%, that means the polution being output by the car is more than if using non-ethanol gas!

If you are losing more than 11% fuel economy with 10% ethanol, it is detrimental in terms of cost and environmental friendliness since you are burning more gas to get where you want to go.

Each make/model has a different reduction in gas mileage when using ethanol. Perhaps someone will create an engine that can produce the same mileage as non-ethanol, but I’m not sure it’s possible with the chemical makeup and energy potential of ethanol.

Don’t sue me yamaha. I could maybe dig up my 97 Johnson 40 hourse manual too

I use 87 octane fuel that has 10% ethanol in it. No fuel related problems… ever.

Overall I think mileage loss in older cars is a tuning issue that may or may not be able to be changed, I’ll never believe 30%, I’d have to run some numbers, but adding 10% of something and lowering overall btu’s by 30% would have to be a really significant differnce in btu, between gas and ethanol, which I’m fairly certain does not exsist to that extent. The claims of 30% are common though for people running e85 (85% ethanol), but not just the regular 10% I bought gas all over the couple states near by, I’ve never seen a 30% increase in changing gas, not even on easy freeway miles, Heck I’d say I’ve never seen more than a 10% change in mileage, I’d attribute that to other factors much easier than gas quailty. Not to mention I rarely see people use the non oxygas, and I’ve had more expirences of bad gas with nonoxy non fresh gas, than regular ole gas + 10% ethanol.

As of now you don’t really have much of a choice in MN, I’m saying just it’s not all bad, and I deal with it.

FYI for you guy’s who are looking for non-oxy fuel. The Minnesota Street Rod Association has a list of stations in Mn.
msra.com

I’m using only non-oxy from now until storage. I also put in Sta-Bil when storing just in case and I use SeaFoam regularly. Better safe than sorry!

Ferny

Oh, I forgot to mention there was a article in Boats US that sounds very similar…very scary since it reacts with fiberglass and eats it away in older cruisers and yaghts (many tank tops were glass) causing fuel in the bilge…KABOOM! The result is you have to spend big $$ to hack up your deck since there glassed over the tanks and retrofit with a plastic tank if possible.

Ferny

I would not recommend using it. I have heard that it will soften anything rubber, like gas lines, diaphrams in carburetors, etc. It will also do what is called phase seperation, which is the ethanol will break down and seperate from the gas in as little as 2 months if not treated with stabil, sea foam, etc. For the little extra money for non-oxygenated premium fuel(non ethynol) it isn’t worth it to not spend the money for the peace of mind that you will have. Spending a little more each time you fill up may save you a major fuel related repair down the road too.

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Ethanol is crap. Using 10% ethanol gas in a ’96 vehicle produces a consistent 30% drop in gas mileage. Even if 91 octane is move expensive than the 10% ethanol, it’s no-where close to 30% more expensive.

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Not trying to hijack the thread,, but can you point me in the direction of some scientific studies that show that much of a decrease using ethanol vs non.

I know in my car (94 Olds Cutlass) I can get 27mpg highway using 10% ethanol. If you’re statement is correct, I should be getting 35+ mpg highway (provided i did my math right) if I used non-ethanol gas. I just do not see that happening.

I’ve always gas with ethanol in it in all my outboards with no problem. All of the outboards I have owned have been pre 1980 and I have not had a problem with a single one. With that said, every fall I mke sure to drain the carbs and make sure to give the motor a complete winterization. I have also talked to a number of people at work who are running ethonal blended gas is their newer outboards and they haven’t had a problem either. Just my experiene.

Ah!!!!
Just run some Nitro-Methane in that motor!!!!!!! Then she will be all good to go!!!!!

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Not trying to hijack the thread,, but can you point me in the direction of some scientific studies that show that much of a decrease using ethanol vs non.

I know in my car (94 Olds Cutlass) I can get 27mpg highway using 10% ethanol. If you’re statement is correct, I should be getting 35+ mpg highway (provided i did my math right) if I used non-ethanol gas. I just do not see that happening.

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I find very little difference in gas mileage using 10% in my truck. I’ve checked this with others who find the same. I’d be interested in seeing the study that reports a 30 percent decrease as well.

I run 10 percent in my boat, no problems.

The 30% figure comes from my personal and friends’ experiences with 10% ethanol gas in the E.C., WI area. Additional factors may be due to poor quality 87 octane gas from the biggest suppliers around here.

It is dependent on the engine of the vehicle along with how much tuning has been done beyond stock to increase gas mileage. A 15% mileage improvement obtained over stock with non-ethanol gas is good, but ethanol gas eliminates that benefit along with another 10-15% below stock. For instance, 18 mpg with non-ethanol 87 octane was reduced to 14 mpg with 87 octane 10% ethanol gas from the same supplier. (Three tanks of each gas averaged. Same style of driving. Similar weather conditions and temperatures.) We thought it was an anomaly, so we tried the ethanol again from a different supplier. Same outcome.

If you’ve done your own gas mileage study in your vehicle over more than a single tank, use that data. Studies frequently don’t apply to everyone’s situation due to extraneous factors (not even taking into account the political and business money factors). Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. However, I’ll stick with the facts I have gathered.

In looking at owners manuals of snowmobiles, boats and wheelers, I have seen in all cases that these motors were designed to meet performance criteria with fuels containing 10% ethanol blends. Yamaha 4 strokes (And other engine manufacturers) in their bigger blocks have water separators that eliiminate or greatly reduce water in the fuel lines. From all the mechanics I have talked to, the main concern is the freshness of the gas. Also, I was told that for gas to “Gel” because of water is nearly impossible. It would have to be darn near kerosene for that to happen, and that would be from old gas again.
The boat mechanic I talked to said “If that is the case, then there must be a heck of a lot of motors in the junk yard!” Which there really aren’t.
Fill them up and run them! Don’ worry about the ethanol. If you are worried about gas going stale, or if it is going to sit for a long period, use fuel stabilizers. NOT SEAFOAM! Seafoam is only recommended if there is a fuel line issue or suspected “Gunk” in the fuel system. Seafoam is an oil and detergent that does nothing to stabilize sitting fuel. It is designed to be ren through the system as a cleaning measure.
I am sure there will be more information coming out on this. If you are concerned about it, call your marine mechanic, and he will give you the straight poop.

I dunno, My RP was always very cool blooded on the 1st start of the day, sometimes would take a good 5 minns to get it running if it sat on the drive way over a week. I spoke to Kevin Turner (River Pro Boats) about it, he recommended finding some non oxy fuel and filling it up and should be better, he stated common problem with the boats in MN because of the 10% mix in our gas. I figured it to be a carb problem or something else, couldnt imagine fuel being that big of a factor. Well Long story short, it made a world of difference for me. my boat starts right away now and runs better without even washing it all because I run non-oxy fuel now. thanks for the advise KT.

CA

Catten;
You are talking a RP with an I/O, correct???

Would that be a v6 or inline motor? Either or, that motor is technically like an auto motor with accessories to make it compatable with a boat. If I’m correct with my assumptions above, your motor should be more than compatible with any fuel purchased at the pump (besided E-85).

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FYI for you guy’s who are looking for non-oxy fuel. The Minnesota Street Rod Association has a list of stations in Mn.
msra.com

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It’s kinda hard to find and I know I use this site when going to a new town, so I wanted to add a link.

Click Here

Sully

Hey Gary, yes I have the V6 175 IO on my river pro, I understand it should run the same on either except the E85, but it doesnt. After my 1st full tank of the non oxy fuel the engine starts faster and runs better, It was a cold blooded pig to start, cranking several minns, just to do it again and again to finally get it started. I have been running the non oxy fuel for a couple months now its like i have different boat, starts right up and runs great.
I would almost think someone but one of the blue moters in my boat

CA

Gary, I’ll let you know after my trip with him tonight.

Had to bump this I came across this page I thought was pretty informative.

http://www.mercurymarine.com/ethanol

Excellent link, thanks for posting that one.

I’m currently in the process of burning all the fuel out of my tank right now, but I still haven’t had any problems. Yet. The worst part is, “all it takes is once”.

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If you are worried about gas going stale, or if it is going to sit for a long period, use fuel stabilizers. NOT SEAFOAM! Seafoam is only recommended if there is a fuel line issue or suspected “Gunk” in the fuel system. Seafoam is an oil and detergent that does nothing to stabilize sitting fuel. It is designed to be ren through the system as a cleaning measure.

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Not according to their website!

http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUpConsumer.htm

Their saying its both.