Twins Stadium

Jon,

Being that you are not a resident of Hennipen county, and not subject to funding the Twins proposed stadium, why don’t you stay out of business that doesn’t concern you!

This funding measure was passed by the Hennipen County officials the county residents voted into office. Thats the way the government is supposed to work. Officials….re-presenting…. the wishes of their constintuients. Those who didn’t get what they wanted, and others such as yourself who deserve absolutely no say in what Hennipen County does are the only reason this measure got forced into the Legislature to begin with.

If you want the right to have a say in Hennipen county politics, become a resident of Hennipen County, till then stay out of areas you have no business being in to begin with.

I would suggest you invest your efforts in getting the state to quit collecting taxes for things that are paid for, such as the dome. If you could do that, we all could fund the proposed Twins stadium and still put money in our pockets.

So it is a sales tax and not an income tax right?

I can tell you this. I won’t EVER come to the Twin Cities to watch a Twins game in the Dome. I will without a doubt come up to see some Twins games if they have a new outdoor stadium. That’s bringing my family’s money into the area that wouldn’t otherwise be. I’m sure I’m not the only one.

The NFL is a little different. They already sell out every game. So the revenue isn’t gained, but it is lost if the team moves. The NFL is a limited resource that would easily be scooped up by another metro area if the Twin Cities decides against building a new facitlity. Sucks, but that’s the reality. Many people care, many people don’t. There is also a level of civic, oh I don’t know the term, pride, panache, with having pro sports teams. No real way IMO to put a on it. All I know is every Monday the office is filled with men and women alike talking about the Vikings. Tough to put a price on it. Minnesota can either be the one to make a stand and say no and lose the team, or not. Not for me to decide as I am not a resident, but I supported teh Packer stadium even though I am not a fan. WI just would lose something about WI to lose the Pack. As I feel MN would to lose the Vikings.

Cleveland went through the same thing, the team moved, then they paid over twice as much for a new team some years later. Letting the team move would be short sighted IMO.

Just my opinions.

I realize I’m treading on dangerous ground here as I attempt to speak for Jon and others that are dead-set against this move to build stadiums with public monies without those monies first being approved by the tax payers themselves. If I overstep, swat me hard and I’ll shut up.

The objection isn’t so much about wanting or not wanting these teams to stay. It is about the way our elected officals are trying to circumvent the clearly and often stated objections of the voters that got them elected to get it done. My understanding is that there can be no tax increase unless the tax payers themselves vote it into law. But our elected officials are trying to get around the required referendum that would allow voters to make the choice to be taxed to pay for something they believe in. Instead these politicians are trying to pass a bill, without voter consent, actually AGAINST voter consent, to get it done because they know voters would NOT vote in favor of a tax increase for these stadiums, regardless of which counties it would or wouldn’t effect.

If our elected officials continue to ignore the voters to get a tax increase passed without voter approval for a “pet project” show me a citizen of this state that isn’t affected.

I love the twins and vikings and would be sad to see them go. To boldly ignore state law to get it done is just flat out wrong. If they do this, we might as well have a king calling all the shots because our representatives are clearly showing a willingness to work around the wants and desires of the majority to achieve their goals when voters have repeatedly voted against their proposals.

My 2 cents.

That is were I have to disagree with you, the house & senate can exept the county if the county board aproves it first. Then all the legislature has to do is sign of on it.

James:

I have no idea what the law is and you may be completely right.

Minnesota public law is so convoluted I would believe anything. Don’t get me stated on the “State” thinking they should run everything at the Coutny level.

If every state expendature required public approval, nothing would ever get approved.

Well stated James.

JD, Jons opinion is just as valid as when you chime in about Yar-Craft when people are asking about Ranger & Warrior.

Lets not loose sight that the proposed tax of one county is now being discussed as a seven county tax. If this is not stopped what will stop them from doing a 1/2% sales tax raise state wide?

Very few have argued the value of the Twins or Vikings. It’s the “ram it down their throats and they will like it” attitude of the politicians and owners that is ticking people off.

As I stated earlier, smilin’ Carl will NEVER get one penny of mine.

XM radio solves the problem of no Twins games on the radio. St. Paul Saints solve the problem of an outdoor stadium.

Jack,

I have been silent on this topic as Hennepin County went ahead and approved the tax without HC voter approval. No problem, I won’t be going to MPLS anytime soon and will never move there.

Now that the bill has hit the Mn legislature, they wised up and tossed it out because no voter approver. Now these geniuses want to bundle all three stadiums into one bill. The opponents said they will agree to the new bill and ½ cent tax increase METRO WIDE if they get their light rail built. We went from a Hennepin county spending bill of $520 million to a $$$$ Milti BILLION $$$$ 3 stadium/light rail spending proposal. A spending proposal that directly affects me! (And every taxpayer in the 7 county metro area.) My personal opinion is this thing will go state wide in no time as I predicted a month ago. (See post above)

Look. Put it up to a voter approval. If it passes, fine. But it will fail as it has in the past.

-J.

As usual, well put James. I’m not against Viking/Twins/Gophers, I’m against taxes! And where the heck did our priorities go? Seems to me this stuff should be at the bottom of a long list of things this state needs.

All you guys who are on the other side of the fence. Go look at the profits the NFL and MLB are making each year and their cash on hand at the end of 2005. These companies can well afford to build their own stadiums or loan the money to the individual franchise owners.

-J.

I must apologize!!!!!!!!!
Some debate somewhere I stated the three stadiums would cost taxpayers 1.5 billion dollars. My bad, I forgot to factor in light rail.

Remember the photo’s of the Pied Piper when you were kids?
Picture the owners as the Pied Piper and the taxpayers (you & I)as the mice.

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As usual, well put James. I’m not against Viking/Twins/Gophers, I’m against taxes! And where the heck did our priorities go? Seems to me this stuff should be at the bottom of a long list of things this state needs.

All you guys who are on the other side of the fence. Go look at the profits the NFL and MLB are making each year and their cash on hand at the end of 2005. These companies can well afford to build their own stadiums or loan the money to the individual franchise owners.

-J.

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It’s not that I don’t agree with much of what you say Jon. But, it is more a matter of reality than priority. Other places in the Country will pay for a very limited resource that they desire to have in their community (the NFL). The state can take a stand, and if they do fine, but unless every metro area in the Country takes a stand, the team will leave, and a certain quality of life will be lost to the area. I guess it is up to each person to decide how much they care about that. Some will care alot, some won’t care at all.

This is just a general statement and not directed at your message Jon. As far as not paying a rich guy, please. How many companies, corporations, etc. get money from government, get incentives to relocate somewhere, get tax breaks (that’s taxes they don’t pay that we then make up for to some degree). This good (average guy) vs. evil (rich sports owner) is a nice story to rally some rara against a sports stadium, but if you TRULY want to eliminate goverment giving money and breaks to the rich, get to work on a whole bunch of other stuff besides the stadiums too. At least average person gets to use the stadiums for enjoyment.

Jon,

Just to clarify, I was opposed to you speaking out against these measures while at the county level. Now that it has expanded beyond Hennipen county, I have no issue with you or anyone else speaking their minds, or calling their elected officials about it.

Brian,

Speaking ones mind is fine, as you pointed out, I do it often. Boats are individual decisions, and have little if any bearing on other individuals, but stadiums and the possible loss of a pro franchise effects millions of people, and the state economy as well. Big difference especially if the matter was still a Hennipen county issue only.

Well said James I could not agree more!

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I realize I’m treading on dangerous ground here as I attempt to speak for Jon and others that are dead-set against this move to build stadiums with public monies without those monies first being approved by the tax payers themselves. If I overstep, swat me hard and I’ll shut up.

The objection isn’t so much about wanting or not wanting these teams to stay. It is about the way our elected officals are trying to circumvent the clearly and often stated objections of the voters that got them elected to get it done. My understanding is that there can be no tax increase unless the tax payers themselves vote it into law. But our elected officials are trying to get around the required referendum that would allow voters to make the choice to be taxed to pay for something they believe in. Instead these politicians are trying to pass a bill, without voter consent, actually AGAINST voter consent, to get it done because they know voters would NOT vote in favor of a tax increase for these stadiums, regardless of which counties it would or wouldn’t effect.

If our elected officials continue to ignore the voters to get a tax increase passed without voter approval for a “pet project” show me a citizen of this state that isn’t affected.

I love the twins and vikings and would be sad to see them go. To boldly ignore state law to get it done is just flat out wrong. If they do this, we might as well have a king calling all the shots because our representatives are clearly showing a willingness to work around the wants and desires of the majority to achieve their goals when voters have repeatedly voted against their proposals.

My 2 cents.

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I know that this is a political thread, and most of the time get my “teet” in the wringer on these, but “actually” I agree with Jon on this one. They start talking about Henn. county and then metro wide, then 7 county metro….sheesh where does it stop?? I have been quiet about this Anoka county deal with the the Vikings..I live in Anoka county…and I now feel like this Twins thing is only a beginning to a whole raft of things that are going to cost us a bunch of money. Next year I will be retired and have planned for my retirement so that I know where my money has to go, how much I have, and most importantly, how much I have to spend foolishly (fishing stuff ) None of this money is planned to go towards any stadiums. This whole business concerns me, and I think they are valid concerns. I will just have to sit back and wait like the rest of you, yet to have a say…I would say “no public money for stadiums” because some of that money will be mine.

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You mean this is a political thread and I haven’t got into trouble yet……me I think I am getting soft.

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If we break the law then we get into trouble. When our elected officials break the law to get what they want when the voters don’t want it that way then they should be in trouble – voted out of office. Thats how voters can get the message across.
Thanks, Bill

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I know that this is a political thread, and most of the time get my “teet” in the wringer on these, but “actually” I agree with Jon on this one.

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TBO, I didn’t think I would ever hear something like this out of your mouth OK Sorry had to stir the pot a little bit.

I have to agree with you though. I vote no for any referendum that has a tax increase along with it. This includes stadiums, schools, roads, FD, Police etc (and I am a fireman), as I feel we are taxed enough, and the state does not need any more money from me. The only problem with that is my wife normally cancels out my vote !

We will lose something if the Twins/Vikes/Wild/Gophers go elsewhere. I often put the Twins game on the radio at nights (even when they are getting killed) and enjoy having this type of entertainment.

So I guess you could say I am pro stadium, anti taxes. I think that must make me a demoican

I say if you don’t want to pay for stadiums or have pro sports, there are 3 or 4 nearby options. North Dakota, Iowa, Nebraska and tax free South Dakota. (Semi tongue-in-cheek, so simmer down.)

If we get to vote on this tax increase, then I think we should also get the right to vote on ALL TAX INCREASES. I don’t know all the benefits or negatives of a ball park. I have not heard all the arguements for or against sports stadium funding and neither do about 80% of the people in the state, but lets all vote on our ignorance.

A new Vikings owner comes in and says he’s going to spend $1 billion dollars in MN. That’s a billion dollar investment in Minnesota. 1 billion dollars into our economy. Yes, he wants some public money, but you telling me the state wouldn’t give Microsoft money to move it’s headquarters here? I live in Anoka county and if we don’t get a park out here, it will be a big blunder, big dissappointment and big missed opportunity. It becomes a state/county investment too. I can see having issues with the Twins who want us to front twice what they are, but Wilf wants us to front 1/2 of what he is investing. I don’t know if any other owner in any other sport has made that good of an investment in a city/metro area.

What’s the difference in say some social program and ball parks? Oh yeah, I get use out of the ballparks.

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We will lose something if the Twins/Vikes/Wild/Gophers go elsewhere.

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Are the Gophers talking about moving if they don’t get a stadium?

After about 10 years of playing in the music city bowl, maybe they should consider it.

Won’t argue about that! It is their home away from home!

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Are the Gophers talking about moving if they don’t get a stadium?

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I see the developers behind the mall of america want a couple hundred million of public money now or they threaten to scale back their expansion.

I feel their pain. So far they’ve only received 108 million in tax breaks and incentives since the mall opened. How will they feed their kids?

What quality of life do i reap from a new stadium?(taxed to build them then pay to use the facility(see them play)).

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I see the developers behind the mall of america want a couple hundred million of public money now or they threaten to scale back their expansion.

I feel their pain. So far they’ve only received 108 million in tax breaks and incentives since the mall opened. How will they feed their kids?

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Yes, but they have also been able to create millions in revenue from sales tax, income tax, and others. Not too mention the economic impact that happens to come as a result of all of the tourism dollars that it helps to create.

You save on the cost of plane tickets to LA to see them play.

Are you a Vikings/Twins fan? How much do you enjoy the teams? If alot, you get alot, if not much, you don’t get much.

I am a fan of both.It would be a little easier to take if the owners put up some more of the money.My quality of life does not revolve around professional sports teams.(I’d rather be hunting or fishing anyway )

Yup, they’ve been wildly successful. So they planned a massive development. And now after announcing the development they want public funds to make it happen or they threaten to scale it back.

The bulk of jobs created and tax dollars paid are by companies that are just too small and “insignificant” to qualify for tax breaks like the one in question here. Without public funds or tax breaks the developers would have to face the same economic risks that all other businesses face when they make a business descision. I am strongly against this type of use of public funds. There was a supreme court case pending a couple years back that was going to rule on the constitutionality of such tax breaks as it creates an unfair business environment with one business getting special treatment while others across the street or across the state get nothing. For the life of me I can’t find any info on the status of that case although I think I remember reading that the supreme court had agreed to hear arguments on this point.

What’s the difference between companies that get tax breaks and public funds and companies that don’t? Companies that get taxt breaks have a lot of money to spend on lobbyists and lawyers.

BINGO!!!!!!!! Mo money, gets mo money..(oil companies)

Never said it was fair. It’s the way of the business world now. A governing official’s job is basically to keep their job. Not what it’s supposed to be, but what it is. They need to make sure that we have jobs. They are willing to give big companies, developers, etc a break tax wise in order to attract them to help create more jobs. If they say no and that development goes somewhere else, then they are going to be out of a job themselves before too long. Once again, not that this is how it should be, but I think most people vote based on the economics. The economy will suffer without these tax breaks.
I’m not a huge fan of these tax breaks, but the bottom line is that if we don’t give them a break, someone else will, and that would make our economy suffer. IMO.