Wow! Economy must be great! Or Bad?

Hey Fish not an insult to you and this is what i heard a professor from M.I.T. say, that even with very good insight on investments that only a very few would benefit from any social security investment to hold him through thier retirement when investing in stocks and bonds given the ups and downs of the market. Also a person would have to be almost brain surgeon quailty to make those investments from the everday pay that most of us make in our country. Even with devoted investments he said that that market wouldn’t pay enough dividends. What about everybody else in society that hasen’t the insight or time because of lifes ups and downs to do this, it just wouldn’t work. We need an all invested by everybody with a law saying that no one under any circumstances can take this money out for any reason what so ever that this is the money that people are going to need to retire on. Thats the money thats there for everyones retirement and its staying there. Too much borrowing now and passing the dept on to our younger generation to try to keep things stable in our society, if we can’t make it ourselves why count on our kids to spend thier money on us, they hardly even work yet plus thier going to need it themselves. If there wasen’t as much money to be made in war and in other areas such as federaly funded companies when it comes to bidding for any government contracts, pharmacuticals, health insurance, the people who supply education with thier materials and bogus rules you’d see prices fall like a rock then people could afford them. If theres enough money to be made in any organization its going to make it hard for the ones that can’t afford it and theres always going to be the ones that have jobs where they don’t make as much as the ones who can afford it. Its not a case of just finding another job , someone has to do thier jobs too, digging ditches and cleaning outhouses are a few, these people can’t afford health insurance, how do we make it possible for them to take care of themselves, lower the prices so they can and everybody can afford insurance rich and poor. I could care less about how much money the insurance companies are making for thier investors because thier high prices that pay these profits to everbody are making it impossible for the poor to afford health insurance. Cut those big profits and bring the prices down so everbody can afford them. The rich pay out less for health insurance and the poorer can afford those prices. Inflation is the no.1 enemy in our culture based on profit driven greed and its justified by saying its for the investors who are trying to keep ahead themselves. Instead of trying to make 30 billion in one year and putting prices so out of the ballpark for almost everyone, almost 65% of the people in america are eigther underinsured or not insured at all why not set that for a 10 year goal instead of a one year goal. If they don’t it makes inflation rampant in our society and then it becomes a society that only a few can afford and its expecting our kids to pay for it. Cut all this hidden porkbarrel over spending and make it affordable for everone to pay thier taxes and make sure it stays out of the hands of the porkbarrel spenders. If the drive to make hundreds of billions of dollars tomorrow was toned down youd see the prices drop for everbody to a point where alot more could afford alot of things instead of people having to support these people like it is now. Make the people on welfare work if its possible for them to work, less incentive to stay on welfare if they have to work for it. I, like you could make alot of improvements but when theres as much money involved like there is, theres too much money for the few to be made so whos going to listen to us. They get paid not to listen and get paid to make as much money as they can, our tax system says so, just ask the big companies. The whole damned tax systemm falls on the working class and none of it falls on the big companies or very very little who should pay thier share.

Gez, go fishing for half a day and 42 posts to catch up on…in ONE THREAD!

I find this pretty educational…

Did I mention the cat’s are biting!

My point is Dan, that I should be able to decide were MY money goes. As it is right now, too many people look as Social security as tgheir retirement fund. That IS NOT what it was designed for. Same as welfare, it was not designed as a way of life, but was meant to be a crutch for hard times. SS was meant to SUPLIMENT ones retirement. Now too many people see it as thier nest egg and all be damned who wanna mess with it.
Oh, and as far as I am concerned, most “proffessors” lean way to far left for my liking. Besides, I thought
was a technology college, not a buisness school. Kinda like asking the folks at Oral Roberts University about Space flight.

I understand what your saying fish. It does make sense to invest thier social security if people can invest it right.

WhiskerKev-regarding the prescription drug program. I find it funny that you are critical of this. Clinton said he was going to do it for 8 years and Gore campained on it too. Clinton was the master of saying how he was fighting to do something, but not getting anything done. But he could keep saying how hard he was fighting for it and keep it as an issue in the public debate.

Bush comes in, says what he wants to do, then does it and people complain. I am not pro Bush. I dont argee w/ all the spending. I agree with the war. I like him better than Clinton, but I think he could be doing better.

Were you so strongly opposed to a prescription drug program when it was Bill and Hillary’s idea?

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How dare you put Bass in the middle of this. If you do not like them than do not fish for them.

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Slider first of all , Secondly, just to be politically correct. Actually Bass was not in the “middle” of the other two, it was on the end of the list. The reason it was on the end, because Bass and Bass fishing is not important

Gall darnit BK, we need that stirring the pot graemlin

YEEEE HAAAAA!

Wrong one!

What kind of return are we getting on social security?

2% return?

Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to invest that money in relatively safe bonds and get 5%?

Dave B, you’re the bond guy, what do you think?

I think the actual point being, how many people would really do that? I can see that it would be a great thing to be able to do that(did you guys hear that, I agreed on something you said )but in the end, would we end up paying for those that chose not to invest it, and now are a burden on society, with welfare, and other social services? Just a thought….

Back to the subject of unemployment. The total for the number of employed people by its self does not seem to be a very good indicator of economy. Wouldnt you need to throw in with that the earnings of these employed. If you say things are well because we are all working that might not be so. If we are all working fast food or at Walmart for reduced wages its not so good.

TBO did you relize you included bass fisher people in the list that you would welcome in your boat.

I know I did, Mike…I was trying not to offend anyone, no matter the social status(in that case, fishing status) I know, call me an abolitionist, but we must abolish those class barriers……

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Numbers are used to support ones view point, and no matter what view point you take, you can always find numbers to support it.

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Ok TBO,

If my numbers are somehow skewed, let’s take a look at yours!

You make the assumption that I think we spend too much on education. Not true. The numbers are there and they are real and accurate. My deal with education spending in Minnesota and in particular, the metro area is this. We are only graduating roughly 50% of the students. That is unacceptable!

J-ERICKS hit the nail on the head. We have kids at school who don’t want to be there. So, in essence we are paying the schools for babysitting duties at $6500 a head.

I’m for the voucher system. And private schools who actually get the job done. Private schools in the metro graduate close to 90% of students. Under the voucher system, parents get the $6500 at the beginning of the year and choose where to send the kid. Bad schools go out of business and good schools flourish. Parents with kids that have their head up their rear end don’t get any money unless the kid shows up for school and passes. Private schools run buy private companies that compete for those dollars will be efficient and competitive. Isn’t that the American way?

Edit >>> And here’s the other deal I like with private schools. Parents give teachers permission to smack any kid who smarts off or get’s into trouble. Just like when a lot of us older folks went to school. And if you want your kid to pray or say the pledge of allegiance, (or not) there would be a school you could send your kid to that would offer or ban that activity.

Edit #2 >> Also, under the Vouvher system, parents could choose to keep kids at home for home schooling. Mom or dad would effectively get paid $XXX for each kid.

Clearly, what we have now is a broken system that need fixing ASAP!

-J.

That was my point Mike, unemployment is low AND incomes have been growing.

Personal income has grow at 4.2% annually during the Bush administration-source is the US Dept of Commerce.

So the idea that we are losing “good” jobs and adding lower paying jobs simply does not follow the data.

Yes, we are losing a lot of good jobs. But there are a lot of good jobs being created too. We are losing manufacturing but gaining in healthcare. We are losing big 3 union auto jobs in Detroit and gaining $50k average foreign auto jobs in the south.

The public opinion and the press on the economy has been skewed way too far to the negative. What makes news, 100 companies adding 50 workers each or a big company laying off 5,000? Labor markets are getting very tight in many fields right now.

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If you say things are well because we are all working that might not be so. If we are all working fast food or at Walmart for reduced wages its not so good.

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That is true, but you won’t see either of the 2 major political parties do anything about that. See, many of those minimum wage jobs are held by immigrants to this country. The Democrates need those illegal votes, and the Republicans need those minimum wage workers!

What we need is to quit electing politicians to office, and elect qualified business professionals instead. Running this country is a business, and few politicians are qualified to do that job.

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this is what i heard a professor from M.I.T. say, that even with very good insight on investments that only a very few would benefit from any social security investment to hold him through thier retirement when investing in stocks and bonds given the ups and downs of the market.

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I’d be interested in the name of the Prof. That statement is not true. Do you believe everything your “hear”?

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Inflation is the no.1 enemy in our culture based on profit driven greed and its justified by saying its for the investors who are trying to keep ahead themselves.

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Huh? Come on, where did you get that?

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If the drive to make hundreds of billions of dollars tomorrow was toned down youd see the prices drop for everbody to a point where alot more could afford alot of things instead of people having to support these people like it is now.

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Conservative believe the opposite to be true. Do you have any basis to support that opinion?

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Make the people on welfare work if its possible for them to work, less incentive to stay on welfare if they have to work for it.

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I agree!

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The whole damned tax systemm falls on the working class and none of it falls on the big companies or very very little who should pay thier share.

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Wouldn’t it make sense then to simply not tax corporations? That way they would be more profitable, be able to offer heath care, retirement and other benfits to the employees instead of the government taking it and re-distributing it back to the people who earned it?

-J.

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What we need is to quit electing politicians to office, and elect qualified business professionals instead. Running this country is a business, and few politicians are qualified to do that job.

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Ross Perot for Pres!

-J.

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That IS NOT what it was designed for. Same as welfare, it was not designed as a way of life, but was meant to be a crutch for hard times. SS was meant to SUPLIMENT ones retirement. Now too many people see it as thier nest egg and all be damned who wanna mess with it.

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Amen to that!

-J.

I want to work in the Dept. of the Interior, namely…..

INDIAN AFFAIRS!

ALSO JUST BECAUSE BUSH SAY’S IT,

DOESN’T MAKE IT SO.

I am so glad that you brought up the education system in Minnesota…..Now for the shocker…I agree with you on all of your ideas…..but they will not work. First, what happens to the idea of equal education for all…I know, we don’t have it now..Here are a couple things, I have no numbers, but I think you will agree with them anyway. The problems that we have in public education does not come from the students/parents that want an education. The problems come from the students/parents that don’t care. Now, the arguement that you are going to get from those that don’t care is, “What about my kid” “My kid can’t learn in the traditional ways”, “My kid has a special learning disability”, ect, ect, ect……..There is where the problems lie. Our society would never accept anything less than “Everybody gets the same”. The numbers you provide as an average cost per pupil is around $6000., do you think that is the cost for every student in public schools in Minnesota?? I don’t think this is the case. Example: I have 27 students in my class. Here is the breakdown: 9 regular ed. students, 5 ESL, 6 EBD(3 level three), 4 LD, and 3 speech/language disabled. Of the 27, 18 of them are on IEP’s, 4 of them have one constant para, and 1 has two constant paras. Now do you think the cost for a regular ed. student is the same as, say as the 1 that has 2 constant paras?? I don’t think so. The next question is this; with the voucher system, is there going to be a place for the 18 of 27 students that don’t fit into a regular ed. classroom??…. My mentor teacher years ago told me this, “No matter who or what they are, when they grace your doorstep, you have to try to teach them”. I think that is what public education has been saddled with, and I think it will continue to be that way. If it doesn’t, we will create an educational class(pardon the pun) system that our society will never accept.

BTW: I am not a democrat, or a liberal…I am a fiscal conservative, and a social “middle of the road”…….My job as an American is to question, stir the pot, if you will..

This is going to be along one but here goes then i’ll shut up. Jon first i want to say you look like you know what your doing and you try to think accurate and find the right answers, i say this because i don’t want you to think im off in left field some place and don’t respect your opinion or answers, i just don’t like to hassel anyone. It was a public radio station that i listened too last fall about the statement from M.I.T., the broadcast had the whole breakdown on the possabilities and it showed that a person would have to be very skilled to earn enough for his retirement and i don’t remember who the professor was. It would be a whole lot better to invest in a few apratments for retirement instaed of the volatile market. This is meant not to offend anyone here on the site but i’ve seen enough greed in my life to drive prices up in alot of situations, its always the biggest desire to make the most in the shortest amount of time. Im sure that no one can prove to me that when in the postition where a huge company can make billions they won’t do it. I work formyself and i price jobs and i’ve found the margine that alot of people will hire me at. I’ve also found the margine where people would hire me at for higher prices just because they need it done and i can do it. Im not going to charge those people more money just because i can, thats why i bid a job at my hourly wage multiplied by the hours it will take, this is fair to everybody and favoring no one, everyone gets an even deal. I know smaller independents that charge the same and thier always busy too with the bigger companies having fluctuations in thier profits and hiring and layoffs. I wish the bigger companies could do this but they hire experienced people at top wages to find the max that the economy will absorb and tolerate for maximum profit, it happens everywhere. Why not give a guy a deal on the prices hes expected to pay and leave him with some money so he can save it for whatever he wants. The banking industry has been saying for years that people need to save more money to keep inflation down because of excess buying but it dosen’t help with the big corporations chargeing the max that the economy will absorb, maybe thats why i don’t have to advertise and still make a good living because im fair with my pricing and don’t look to make a killing on the backs of my customers, some people just can’t afford it but they need and have to have the work done so i give them a decent break, i wish the bigger companies could do that. I’d bet my next months checks that 98% of the bigger companies charge the maximum that the market will bear, sounds liked thier over inflating a tire to me. I was told a story about why the jewish are such good businessmen. They will find a shop close by where they want to open a shop and they will sell the same exact item for cheaper and make more money and the customers are happier plus the shop owners happy because hes making money too. Its easy, they sell twice the amounts of what thier competetion is selling because they are cheaper. Are any of the really big companies competeting for each others business or do they all have thier own areas they fix pricing in. Wall-mart and the other chain stores are good examples of competing businesses, the oil and pharmaceutal companies aren’t when you can go to tractor supply and buy the same cancer treating medicine for a 10th of the price for sheep as humans are supposed to be taking and its the same thing. I’ll eat my words if someone can prove to me that these bigger companies that have the ability to control the prices on the things we need in our everyday lives give us a good deal and instead are more concerned with making huge prifits on the back of Americans, its kinda funny Donald Trump thinks so too. If they’ve got it so bad then how come they make bigger profits every year and always have a poor excuse that hardly anyone believes. Im not talking million dollar a year companies, they are the over taxed too. Im talking about all the bigger companies that pay no or very little income tax on the items they’ve sold here in the United States. If we have to pay taxes on what we sell why can’t they, to me and millions of others theres no excuse. If thier reasoning is because they can keep people working, thats no excuse because if they were made to pay taxes they still would make enough to keep everybody working like they had befor and still make huge profits besides and still be in fortune 500 standings. Laying off people is a poor excuse because if they did that they wouldn’t have the skilled work force to keep the company running and making money and they don’t like that because they would loose business and they would looses skilled help, its no wonder the jewish own 7 out of 10 banks in America, thier good businesmen and i can afford their prices and they sell excellent quality items. Theres fluctuations and various margines with all of this but this is the way i see it as a main rule of thumb and i know the bigger companies don’t like me because i give people a reasonable deal. Im not trying to pis- anyone off and i really don’t want to but this is the way i see it, as do others to and i don’t care what the bigger companies say but they could give us all a better deal when we need thier services. Our education system here is in really bad shape and the people who supply its needs are way over priced too, no wonder its running into trouble where some in some districts the teaching body buys the class paper they need or the kids go without. I can’t understand why the people in control of the excepting of the bids for supplies etc. just don’t say to those companies if you don’t bring your prices down well hire someone to buy the things we need for our schools ourselves because we can’t get along very well without them when it comes to getting our kids a good education, they need these things. Another thing that causes rediculous red tape and is a waist is non needed activities. When my son went to high school one of his requirements was he had to buy a $100 dollar cauculator that could be plugged into a main system there in the classroom. This cauclulator was just full of bells and whistles. I went to school and asked why it had to be this one for $100 bucks when a $20 one could do anything they taught there and she said because it can give the immediate math from a golfball swinging from a string in the center of the room. All the elipses, triangulation, trig etc. I asked what good is that going to do these 9th graders and she just said its part of the circuleum and couldn’t give a decent answer. I could see it if it could be carried over to college but, no, they have to take it over again there too, what a waist for a person whos going to work as mechanic, but it was required so took him out of that school and put him in another local school. I can put up with a little overkill but not rocket science in the 9th grade. I see quite a few rediculous rules in our school system, no wonder thier going private. Again i don’t want to make anyone mad, i really don’t, but why can’t big business pay thier fair share of taxes like we do and give us a decent break on thier prices, maybe i could afford that cauculator then for ninth grade rocket science. Maybe if some of these companies brought thier profit prices down they could afford to have things made here in the United States but with the huge untaxed profits they make anyone that goes to work for them or does business with them is going to charge thier max too.

My did this thread draw a lot of interest and emotion.

If you haven’t read the book The World is Flat by Thomas Friedman, you really need to if you have any interest at all in the US and our existence in a global economy. Very good read that will open your eyes no matter if you follow the donkey or the elephant.

I agree with everything in your last post Dan. The big oil companies are a prime example of charging the maximum the economy will allow. Its funny, people like you and I need to inherit Texaco or BP, charge 2 cents per gallon over what it costs to get it to the pump and see how fast the others either conform, or go under. Actually, we would probably have a tragic “accident” and someone else would inherit it who would follow the herd.

All I am saying is I don’t care who is in office, from City council to President. Be fair, be honest and quit trying to “take care” of everyone with my money. Let people take care of themselves. Many have never been forced too, thats why we have so many social programs. I don’t give a rip if your addicted to Meth or Crack and can’t get a job. You chose to do it, now choose to stop and clean up your act, or crawl into a corner, shrivel up and die. Either way, I no longer care to support you.

My 15 yo son used to always whine about it not being “fair” if I made him do soemthing he didn’t feel he should have to. You know the drill.Dad says “Son, I want you to clean all the leaves out of the yard today, bag them up and put them out on the curb for pick up.” Son replys “But Dad, its not fair, my freinds don;t have to pick up their leaves.”
My reply is always, “Who ever told you life was fair?” “Life is hard, play rough”

HEY GUYS

CRAPPIES ARE BITING ON WBL!!!!!!

I know what your saying Fish, hungry stomachs do funny things. Heres an example of how much money the oil companies are making and this probably works the same with companies that go to china and get things made. I was sent an e-mail from an oil investing firm that said now is a good time to buy oil from certain eastern countries. I read further and they said theres opportunities to buy out small oil drilling companies in the mid east for $7 a barrel. If they can do that how much does it cost to buy the oil thats still in the ground, $2 a barrel. Pumping it out of the ground takes no more than a couple of dollars a barrel at the most. So if i have an opportunity to buy oil for $7 a barrel and sell it to the world for $65 a barrel with refining it going for who knows $20 a barrel thats now $31 a barrel, big diffrence from $65 a barrel see now why oil prices are so high and its not called for, give me a break. My math im sure isn’t right here but its got to be something like that or the oil companies wouldn’t be making huge profits like they are. Im sure the profits being made in china and selling to the economy here are probably close the same. I know with automation most things can be made here, maybe not as cheap as over there but they can still be made here at a nice profit. Is this the only reason thier having thing made over there, could it be thier also trying to help the chinese population realize that capitalism when done right isn’t so bad because the harder you work the mone you can make, its probably one of the reasons. This is good but what about the inferior products thier sending over here thats taking our jobs over there. I know its business and theres nothing wrong with making a good living, i’ve got things i want to get patented and have made. The thing that makes me mad is im having to pay prices for items and comodities that that should be half that price, i want and need to save some money too. Average joes are having a hard time doing this and the wives are having to work too to make ends meet instead of being able to stay home and be with the kids. A guy whos retired stoped over last night to give me some tires he took off his truck because it put new ones on, the tires were still in really nice shape. I got to talking to him about what he thought about all these high prices and asked what he thought there was for a reason, he said greed and only greed. Theres nothing wrong with making a darned good living but if $10 million a year won’t satisfy them what will and i understand theres room to make even bigger profits and still not take it from the ones who need it. A million dollars is alot of money but it isn’t so much anymore because things cost so much. How come my old man could save some money and its hard for me too unless i start charging more and forget about the people who can’t afford to pay to have thier walls fixed. I refuse to settle for its because that the way thing are. I know theres things like charity but do people that have worked all thier life and because of inflation now have inflated prices to pay to get thier roof fixed because they don’t want or will take charity. Wheres a persons pride come into play here. Whats happening to these older folks is going to happen to us when we get old if we can’t keep high prices down where almost everyone can afford to get thing done. Who cares about making hundereds of millions of dollars when it comes to making the world an affordable place to live when we retire. We have got to keep greed and stupid ideas out of our money market.

Greed is good.

Whisk, Here is a small quote from your statement: “I have yet to see a headline with a new place opening looking for 500 new people with good wages and health insurance.” From here on out this isn’t directed at you, just my simple minded observation.

While you may not see these jobs in WI, look to your not so distant neighbor to the west, SD. Most cities in SD are flourishing right now. Why, because big business is trying to run more efficiently. Just recently in the Mitchell paper there were two companies announcing openings for 150 people each.

The company I work for employees over 400 people in SD with the plans to add another 150 this year. Why SD vs. MN or WI, the taxes in these two states is ridiculous. The workforce is more loyal(due to less competition), the wages are fair relative to geography and we offer a moderate health plan. Big business is seeing these things and moving to areas where they can operate with a greater margin of profit. I know I would if it were my company. Didn’t a major automaker just move from Detroit, to somewhere down south for some of these very reasons??

My point, then I’m done, because Jon and Joe would light me up in a factual conversation. Jobs are going away in WI and MN, but it doesn’t necessarily mean they are all going overseas!

Also in my opinion, until we force politicians to put term lengths on themselves, most of these problems will continue.

Sorry Skindog-missed your post.

Yes, 2% wont even keep up with inflation. Social Security isnt a retirement plan, it is a ponzi scheme that was destined to fail from the start.

Bonds have returned 6-7% over time, stocks 7-8%. US Treasuries have returned about 5-6%.

If you invest today at 7%, in 10 years your money will double!

Thats alot more return than anything you will get from SS.