Home – No Heat.

Furnace took a dump yesterday. The exhaust fan would kick on and you could hear the clicking of the electronic ignition, but it just did not fire up. Had a guy from Standard Heating here in town stop over for a look this afternoon. He pulled apart the area around heat exchanger and revealed a lot of crud, rust and soot. The exchangers were basically crumbling. This furnace was manufactured in 1986 and likely installed about that time.

So, the tech (Who is not a sales guy) gave me a ball park estimate of 1200-1500 to repair the existing furnace and probably somewhere in the 2000-2400 for a new install. Sales guy will be stopping over tonight to go though the different models available.

To be honest, I don’t feel like I’m getting screwed around here. However, I don’t know squat about furnaces and if someone said they cost 5000, I’d say ship it! So, what do I need to know. Anyone do business with Standard? Should I shop around? Any brand you like or dislike? Any advice appreciated. Man, there are like 200 heating companies in the cities here….

By the way, I can go a few days without a heater. I have a wood stove in the basement and a “Cozy Heat” gas fireplace in the living room to keep the house warm for now.

-J.

I left you a message on your cell phone.

Your lucky to be alive.. Have you been having any headaches or nausea lately?

Unless you plan to stay in your house for 10 years or more I would stay from the real “High Efficancy” furnace. Probably takes that long to break even. Unless there are rebates from your Gas co.

Bought a new Bryant 90 today and it was 1500 with the plenum and thermostat. If you are replacing it should only be around 1400. Then you have to add on the labor. I am putting this one in myself, (with the help of my heating and plumbing brother ) by the way 2,000 sounds about right for an install. Good luck.

Replaced one last winter from Centerpoint (Minnegasco) after they shut mine down from an inspection. It was ~$2200 for a high effeciency. With the cost of that fuel, I would seriously consider anything that’s more efficent – it’s not like the cost will be going down. The high effeciency also can vent out the side of your house so if you remodel you can get the (old existing) stack out of the way. That was our intention and the we moved 10 months later… (story for another time)

By the way I feel like the whole inspection thing was a racket – took the inspector all of 10 minutes to take my furnace apart and then red flag me and leave. On his way out he called a salesman who was there in 2 hours to sell me a new one. Sham if I have ever felt one, but there I sat with a disassembled furnace in -10 below at 4 PM. Not exactly the time to price shop or compare.

Hi Jon,

Like Derek said, you’re really lucky you didn’t get carbon monoxide poisoning.

As to the furnace, there are probably a lot of good brands out there. I’d go with a brand you are comfortable with and a dealer that will give you good service. I would probably shy away from any brand’s top efficiency model because the complexity required to squeeze out that extra 1-2% of efficiency can lead to dependability issues. We installed a mid-range Amana about 4 years ago and have been very happy with it.

The price the tech gave you sounds about right, and this would be a good time to add a whole house humidifier (like an AprilAire) if needed and a high efficiency filter if anyone in the house has allergies.

Good luck.

Dan

P.S. If you don’t already have one, installing a carbon monoxide alarm wouldn’t hurt!

I had a Carrier 45000 btu installed in a rental unit in Eau Claire. We don’t have a chimney so I had to go with the 94% high efficiency unit, last weekend I was up sorting thru my junk and I noticed that unit ran non stop and the other units never kicked on. I really wanted the best warranty on the market but after seeing ones at Menards for a third of the price I am rethinking my decision.

I would shop around. It is clear inventory season. You might also contact your local gas company. Many of them offer assistance in replacing older furnaces with newer more fuel efficient models. A lot of these companies also do cooling and they hate to store stuff over summer.

If the heat exchanger is shot so goes the whole furnace as I am always told. I just replaced a furnace that was installed in 99 with a high efficiency I love it so far. Any item in the home today that is 12 years or older and burnes gas needs to be replaced. Use should go down even tho the costs of the therms keeps going up and up. But soon we will worry about the cost of the electric to cool the house. I never complain about the cost of putting gas in the boat or my poor milage with the boat in toe.

Give Nate a call at Aero Star heating+cooling. (763) 684-0136

I had him replace our old fuel oil furnace last fall. He did good work at a very fair price!! Give him a hollar!!

BIRDDOG

20 year old furnace is old I cant believe they even suggested a new heat exchanger.Replace the furnace and spend a little money and buy a o2 dectecter.It could save your life,and it sounds like you are lucky you didnt already die.

Jon,
I would also recommend replacing, and I am assuming that what you were quoted was high efficiency. I had to replace one from ’83 a few years back and the pricing sounds about right. Be sure to check with your utility company for rebates. I can say I really appreciate the lower monthly heating bills.

dave

Jon, When I built my house, I wanted everything as energy efficent as possilble. I talked to buddies and they told me the 90 plus units werent worth the money, they all had 85% units in there homes. Well I’m not a good listener so I put in a 96% furnance. Bad idea 4 years later needed a new heat exchanger, new upper blower motor, big $ for repairs. When I told the repair guy this is bulls**t,he told me they are having tons of them go bad, since then I’ve asked all HVAC guys about it and they all say there having problems with the high eff. units. Ask the installer what he thinks, maybe it will save you both money and greif.
Ron Lamar

Alot depends on the brand and warranty. You can factor about 12 cents on the dollar for savings with the 92 + furnace v.s a 80% . I have a 92% Ruud with a 5 year warranty on all electrical and 20 year on heat exchanger. What I like most about the 90+ furnaces is the blower stays on after the burners shut down. Same with the A/C, blower uses all the cool air in the plenum after the outside condensor shuts off. Get a good warranty and good brand and the 90+ are excellent furnaces. Not to mention the rebates too.

So what is your guys take on 2 stage gas valves and variable speed motors. I would think this is what the salesman will be talking to you about.
Prices on a standard 80000 btu 80% efi runs around $550.
Throw in a 2 stage gas valve and it goes to $675
Add on variable speed motors and it jumps to $1100.
Keep in mind these are my whole sale prices on a 80% EFI. My salesman gave the thumbs up to the 2 stage gas valve and a thumbs down to the variable speed motor. Being a plumber and not a tim bender I dont know much more than this.

My brother inlaw was just quoted about the same prices you where for a change out. He was looking at the variable speed motor and gas valve.

I know how long it takes for a plumber to change out a furnace. How long does it take a tin bender?

Much of my education has been based on thermodynamics, some of which is concentrated on HVAC. A high eff. system is pointless unless you’re in it for the long run. I noticed someone metioned earlier that they noticed they’re unit running nonstop. Beleive it or not that is exactly what a well fit unit will do. You want to have a unit that will replace the amount of heat at the same rate your home is losing it. Thats where the correct size comes in to play. If your furnace is excessively large you can be paying much more than you need to while the large unit runs for a short period and then shuts off. Now this is where they multi stage gas valves come into play. They are well worth the extra cash, the variable speed blowers are not that significant. A multistage gas valve allows a different amounts of gas to flow into burning. Beleive when I say this is very important(I can prove mathematically). Varying outdoor temps common to MN require varying amounts of output in order to maintain efficient use of gas. Hence the importance of a multistage valve. Your best set up is to have the smallest system possible and have it running constantly throughout winter. I know for a fact this is true although hard for some to beleive. But because of varying outdoor temps, a system needs to be able to adjust accordingly and that is the reason for variable gas valves. They are well worth the money in terms of savings/efficiency.
Last year I designed three different heating and cooling systems for a typical home and of course Geo-thermal heat pumps were on top for performance and savings. Then a boiler system with floor board heating. Then a forced air gas furnace. I know they’re the most common and cheapest to install but in the long run are obsolete in comparison with other systems. If you ever build a new house seriously consider in ground loops and a heat pump for heating and cooling. They take around 12 years to pay off, but greatly increase the value of your home. I’m off the soap box…

wow!!!!! and I thought Matt could only catch fish and drink beer.

Matt. All that knowledge and lay cement. Wow. Had to say it.

Very interisting about the 2 stage valves and blowers. Just picked up a furnace with the 2 stage valve for my house and had someone tell me I will need a certian thermostat for it. Is that right?

I have to respectfully disagree with the theory on two-stage gas valves. They do not regulate flow, they regulate output. You basically have a low and high output on a two stage gas valve. The high stage only kicks in when the low stage cant satisfy the thermostat. This usually happens on extremely cold days or nights. When the high output does kick in, your gas consumption increases significantly. You will save more and heat the home better with a multi-speed blower IMO.

If your furnace is running and not shutting off, there could be two dozen reasons for that.. And when you say the furnace is running non-stop, is that both the burners and blower? Or just the blower?

I agree on a proper size installation. There are calculations for this. I would not however recommend getting the smallest furnace for your house. You also have to remember about cooling, an improper sized blower will not remove the humidity in the summer and satisfy the T-stat, another plus for the multi-speed blower.

Lastly,. Heat Pumps are chronic service problems and a service tech’s nightmare. If you decide to go with a heat pump, make sure the contractor will service it for the life of the unit..

I have a HVAC degree and 10 years field experience from service to sales..

Off my soapbox..

No disrespect intended Matt,, Just my two cents..

Yes Mike, you will need a two-stage thermostat.

Call Fisher18, he does alot of side work

put in a new lennox this fall, nice and quiet.

I hear ya Derek,
You’re making the same statements of two stage gas valves, only in different context. I agree with you %100 on that. The thing that is hard to realize here is that your blower isn’t giving you any heat. Instead, its just moving the warm air/energy around the home. The regulated amount of gas burned is the only way you’ll get that extra heat and save on efficiency. However, previously I said that variable blowers weren’t that important. I meant that in comparison with the multi gas valves. They do help move heat in systematic way to maintain high efficiency.

I’m sure others and Derek know that engineers think everything is easily spoken and “looks good on paper”. There are lots of things I’ve found that work mathematically and on paper,but in the real word just don’t cut. Many people can appreciate that statement. I’ve been in the concrete business for 8 years only to pay for school. I live by those lines.

Jon, heres something you might want to think about. My sons friend worked at a heating and ac place that installed new units and serviced older ones. His friend came over one day and said they pulled out a 2 year old high effiency unit from a house because they were adding on to thier home and this unit would be too small for the new floor space. I asked him how much and he said $500 takes everything including the compressor and A coil for the ac. I bought the whole unit which was an 85 percent for $500 and just hooked it up to the old furnace trunk myself. Maybe it would pay to call around and see if theres any newer used units around if your not in a hurry because your heating with wood. Last summer a heating and ac repairman told me that anything within the last 10 years is ok too install if used if its in good shape, might save you a couple thousand if you could find one.

Jon,

We had the furnace go out 2 years ago. Did some checking and ended up with a Ruud Achiever 90 Plus high efficiency unit. It’s been great so far.

Thanks for all the replies. I will be going for a new install. I will also be getting back to everyone who left me a voice mail or PM. I appreciate all the help! The guy from Standard had a lot of good info. Of course, he was pushing for the high efficiency York Also recommended a few other options and upgrades I need to consider.

Luckily, I’m in no big rush as the wood burner is keeping the house toasty warm. So, I have the time to consider all of my options.

Thanks again.
-J.

Jon, what did you end up with?