Conceal/Carry

A few weeks ago this was a hot topic when Governor Jim Doyle veteod the conceal/carry bill in Wisconsin. When I read all the responses I wondered if there were any examples when concel/carry was beneficial. On the other hand I was kinda in the middle regarding my opinion because I felt anyone with a gun could overreact to things like their car broken into, an argument that got out of hand, etc.

Well, on Monday 2/13/2006 I took my dad to the Gunderson Clinic in LaCrosse because of serious medical problems (he is 87). We are from Winona. Upon leaving the clinic someone walked in screaming that a woman had been stabbed in the parking lot. It turned out she was lying behind the back of my truck and had been stabbed once in the stomach and twice in the lungs. This happened on a nice sunny day at 9:45 AM. My first reaction was if I had been there a few minutes earlier and saw it happen I would have at least fired a warning shot assuming I had a gun. If he didn’t stop hopefully I would have shot him.

I was shocked at how some lady could be stabbed in the parking at a clinic in the morning. so perhaps conceal/carry may save some lives.

The other thing I cannot understand is why this has not been reported. I checked the news and bought the paper, but could find absolutely nothing about this stabbing.

The police did say the lot is filmed. Anyway, if anyone from Gunderson, LaCrosse folks or a police officer can provide additional info it would be appreciated.

2fishy… I hear what your saying…however this is not a case for CC…except if the lady was a card holder.

In most states including MN, that is a situation for the police. (please don’t shoot the messanger…me!) Unless you are in immedieate life threatening danger (generally described as “no other alternative i.e. run away ect) you are in violation of the law, just as any gun packing criminal.

I don’t make ’em, just obey them.

PS IMO most of the population believes the same as you…that a person could help someone in distress…just not the case.

Could it possibly be that this could be a situation where a card carying gun toting good sam could confront the knife weilding doosh bag who did the stabbing, then upon being confronted, he would probably turn on you, who then could legally feel threatened and cornered without the ability to run and given the fact if you also witnessed the stabbing could legally shoot them in self defense as well as trying to protect an already injured victim?

I think if I had witnessed it and confronted him, I’d take my chances and shoot the looser with the knife.

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you are in violation of the law, just as any gun packing criminal.

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Sorry Brian, That is not true. You can certainly intervene to save the life of anyone. There is no law against a legally licensed gun carrying individual to un-holster their handgun in that situation.

I tend to agree with the subsequent answers — how could you ignore someone being stabbed to death if you had the means to help them? Ignoring the incident is something I got never do and live with myself.

Sorry Briank, but your way off base on this one.

And let me further explain my position. I am legally licensed to carry a handgun. I can carry my handgun in my “hand” all freaking day long if I chose to. (edit…Of course, you would have to do it in a way that was not considered threatening or brandishing, just being animated here…) So, if a guy like me, who is legally carrying a handgun calmly walked up to the guy with a knife and said something like…… Well, you get the idea. Guy with knife is more than likely going to > 1. Stop stabbing woman. 2. Turn and run like hell. Hopefully both!

J.

But you would be the first one iniate the contact, so there for there is another way than to shoot him. Stay away observe what has happened and call the police. The best you can be in this situation is a good witness. I think if you shot the guy you could end up in hot water. These are two people you never meet before and are taking a chance at defending one of them not knowing the situation.

Interjecting yourself into an altercation you may come upon requires even more judgment than does the situation where you are under a life threatening assault. Take the scenario of coming upon a struggle between a burly male with a knife and a hysterical female. You shout at the man to drop the knife, he hesitates, you, as a CC good Sam, shoot! After you take out the male “attacker” you discover it was an undercover cop attempting to disarm an enraged knife welding prostitute. I submit it will be a whole lot easier to measure a threat against your own life in most situations, than to gauge that degree of threat to another you come across while they are being assailed! Beware of getting involved as a third party; it requires the judgment of Solomon!

I can verify where you’re coming from with that scenario. In 1983 i was a security guard at the Fremont casino in vegas, third shift, one night we had an altercation next to the poker room, as myself and another guard came on scene ther was an middle age white man holding a young black man against the wall, pointing a 9MM in his face, as the other guar d and myself went for ouir weapons the white male identified himself as an under cover agent, and had apprehended the black male who was wanted. If he had not indentified himself I’m not sure what would have happened, but it probably would’nt have been good. At the time I was there you only had to register your weapon with local law enforcement and you could carry any where alcohol wasn’t served. I can see both sides , but I personally think I would only use a weapon in my own home.

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I think if you shot the guy you could end up in hot water.

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No question. You shoot someone and you will be arrested. Probably sued… lots of problems. (I don’t see a jury putting you in jail if you did blast the stabber, but off topic) The point is there is no LAW that says you can’t intervene. With or without a gun in your hand.

Look. We are not talking TV land here. Where in the movies the guy with the knife karate kicks the gun out of the other guys hand…blah, blah, blah… In real life, you have a gun pointed at your chest, you turn and run 99% of the time.

-J.

Another actual case in point. Recently the news carried a story of an off duty cop being beaten by a group of young thugs at a convenience store in NY. After most of the hoodlums ran, the cop managed to draw his weapon and detain one of the gang members. Shortly thereafter, the uniformed cops arrived and shouted at the man to drop his gun. He failed to convince them he was a cop and one of them shot him dead! The point I am trying to make Krisko clear is that regardless of how extensive the training, it takes a cool head and keen judgment!

Good point Jon…as I have never actually read that law myself.

However in CC class, that is what was taught with many of the same examples that EJ gave as reasons not to involve yourself. Stick boy point was brought up in class too.

Now I have to do some digging in 609. use of deadly force…

I could be “way off base with the law”, but CC was meant to be used for PERSONAL defense against a PERSONAL ATTACK…placing yourself in that situation…would put me on the offensive.

Personally, (gulp, here goes!) if the person that was being attacked…chose not to become a permit holder…why would I feel like I should be their savior? (I know, we are talking about WI here…but let’s keep it simple).

I think you have to ask yourself how you could stand by and watch somebody die?

I couldn’t do it…If I could help in anyway, I would.

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Personally, (gulp, here goes!) if the person that was being attacked…chose not to become a permit holder…why would I feel like I should be their savior? (I know, we are talking about WI here…but let’s keep it simple).

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Brian, I’ve known you for years. If your brain worked this way, I assume you know I would lower my opinion of you a few thousand notches. The police are not super-citizen saviors. Community is the responsibility of each and every one of us.

If he’s an undercover cop disarming an old lady (huh?), he can put the knife down just like anyone else, and would be wise to do so. One who intervenes is not exacting retribution, they’re just defusing the situation. (By the way, cops may also commit crimes).

Hi Gianni!

I find it funny being on the opposite side here…

I think this is where the confusing comes in. A CC card holder is not a police officer. CC classes don’t teach us what to do if an attacker stops…well yes they do sort of…

What is taught is if the attacker stops, lays down there weapon…command them on to the ground…facing away from you…then run like ‘ell and call the police.

What is taught in class is don’t jump into a fight/aid someone that you happened across. Because of haveing a weapon it changes the situation.

I haven’t had time to look up the law for MN…and Jon could be totally right about the LAW. I’m backpeddaling here as stating what’s taught in the CC class.

Thanks EyeJacker I like it “Krisko Clear” that could maybe catch on.

As for this discussion I have an opinion and will not comment. You do what you think is right and a jury or judge will decide if you were right or not. I’m having problems finding case law on this right now….maybe I will maybe I won’t.

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…..a jury or judge will decide if you were right or not.

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Krisko, On this point we are in complete agreement! They will make the final determination of whether it was a “Good Shoot” or not!

Wow, I never thought anyone would say you should watch some guy kill a woman and then call the cops. Sorry, I would take my chances.

Just came back from Bills gun range. A 25 year veteran of the Blaine police department was teaching “tactical rifle” and a CC class.

I asked him what is the MN law reguarding a CC permit holder using deadly force when coming across two people fighting an one (a felmale) being stabbed to death…

His response was “you have a right to use deadly force to protect yourself and others”.

He then added that in MN case law would be against the card holder.
When I started asking for places of referance, he couldn’t give me any…

He also added that in the CC classes that IS what is taught. Protect yourself and your family. Leave the others to the police.

It might not be popular…but that is what is taught.

I sent an E Mail to the LaCrosse Police Dept asking what happened to the woman that was stabbed. If thety respond I will let you all know.

Stop! Halt! Alto! Hold It!
This is the “Holy Grail” of CC. Right here. You are put into a position where you lay it on the line. JJ, Krisko, Gianni, Brian K , and me. We are all on the sidelines on this. This is where it is at. On one hand, you are bringing your wife/kid/husband/daughter to a doctors appt., and you see this. Let me ask you… Do you stop this situation in any way possible? If you are a licensed CC individual, do you play this trump card to SAVE A LIFE?
There is no right or wrong answer to this question. Or is there? (There may be a legal question, but I am not wanting to debate that here…) But…Krisko/Gianni or whomever, if that was a loved one of yours being stabbed, how would you want my licensed CC body to act? Please do not say “Well, this will never happen to me… because it DID here.
Look. I do not want a fight. It is not a game for me to MAKE you think my way. But rather to make you think.
Tuck

Thanks Chris,

I’m thinking there’s a little confusion here..maybe on my part.

Morally and ethicly speaking, there is no doubt that a person should help. The problem comes in when a legally carrying person uses a weapon to help.
It was said that a warning shot should be fired. It’s taught in class that there is no warning shot, if you pull your weapon be prepaired to use it…and take no prisioners. No shooting for the leg or arm.

Please don’t pass judgement on me until you’ve taken the class or unless you are in law enforcement. I don’t claim to be an expert in this field. I’m going by what is taught in classes.

IMO, if you are planning to carry to save others…get into law enforcement. Not only do they get paid for this (although not enough), have training for this, they have the lawyers to get you out of trouble when you happen on a situation like the above…and shoot the wrong person.

As an LEO you might lose your job..but you’ll still be around to support your family and the many thousands of dollars spend on legal fees won’t be coming out of your pocket.

The bottom line is, a person would be much better off stopping a “stumbled on” attacker without a gun.

Brian, I totally agree! When you are under attack you know who the bad guy is, when you come upon an assualt involving others you may not know who the villian is. Situations are not always what they first appear to be. Shooting the right guy is going to be a night mare, shooting the wrong guy is going to make that seem like a stroll in the park!

Thanks EJ! I don’t feel quite as low as the little toe of a worm now!

As a retired State Trooper I say ( Don’t take a knife to a gun fight ). If my family were secure I would intervene.

This case seems pretty clear, unless someone knows of little old ladies who go around attacking knife-wielding perps to get their jollies.

Next we’ll be hearing, “Maybe it was God’s will that he stab her for crack money” or some equally worthwhile argument. I have a responsibility to societies weakest & most fragile members that cannot be revoked or overruled by legislative action nor legal precedent. I’d happily take a chance at being mis-judged by twelve jurors than being judged unworthy at the end of my days. I believe (strongly) in hell, and that there’s a special place reserved for people who watch old ladies get murdered and do nothing, though they posess the power to intervene.

Gianni, thanks. An umarmed woman being stabbed 3X at 9:45 AM in the parking lot of the Gunderson Clinic was pretty clear to me. I realize there are numerous situations where it would not be wise to intervene, but this was not one of them.

P.S. I E Mailed the LaCrosse Police regarding this incident but haven’t heard back yet. If I do I will let evryone know.

I’m not sure where the “old” came in with the lady…but I guess it works.

Before you guys jump off the deep end with your guns a blazing. (do I sound anti gun????)

Please read about a couple heros…

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/ccw/tacoma_tyler.htm

Gianni, just curious, where did this little old lady limp in from? It isn’t that knife wielding crack whore I spared when mistakenly shooting the undercover cop is it? Could it be she was conveniently aged for purposes of your ‘it’s clear to me’ argument? Exaggeration for purposes of making a point, I like it!

I actually do not know any crack whores, knife wielding or otherwise, but I believe they are out there. On the other hand I do know a knife wielding little old lady. In defense of Grandma, I must add she usually only wields the knife when eating a steak dinner! Now if you want to see an enraged, knife wielding little old lady, just try and take her plate before she is done. You do not have to worry about me though, she may be wielding a knife, but she knows the wife and I are both packing heat! It is amazing how much better her judgment is since she quit using meth and gave up the street a couple of years back.

Now at 94, she is possession of all her faculties once again, well most of them anyway.

2 Fishy 4U, with all due respect, you can not know all the details, not having witnessed this violent act. Even eye witnesses are notoriously inaccurate in recounting what they think they saw. You assume she was not armed; however, it is not beyond the realm of possibility the assailant took her weapon.

Lets see, this skinny 30 year old or so lady tried to stab some guy; he took the knife stabbed her 3X and then ran away; please.