Conceal/Carry Bill VETOED!

So Dolt (Doyle) veto’d it? Or the senate let it slip away after he did? If its a dead issue, its one more check on the Pro side of getting a new place in Duluth Vice Superior/Lake Nabagomon area.

Doyle vetoed it, then 2 dems who had previously voted for the bill switched sides on party pressue and failed to sustain an override. (Which was a lock)

Look, the house and senate have had a majority yes vote on this bill twice. Doyle ignored the will of the people both times.

November>>>>>

-J.

news story Channel 3

Jon et al,

It is my opinion that alcohol and firearms don’t mix very well. That .02 thing used to be the same threshold as driving .08. That was changed to .02 to try and get the dems on board. I am not against carry at all. I pay taxes here in Wisconsin unlike most of you. However, I really don’t think anyone should be handling a loaded weapon after consuming alcohol. Just ask that bouncer you had to set his story straight. I also don’t like secrecy. Law enforcment should be able to know and use that information to protect themselves and the community. These are my opinions. I know many of you disagree with me. Also, I do not appreciate to Chris or Eyequide or whomever commenting on my mentality. You do not know me or my mentality. I have an open mind. I feel honored that Jon wasted a whole hour.

Quote:

---

I too have the right to speak my mind and attempt to influence the political process just as you do.

---

And people have the right to bear arms.

“You do not know me or my mentality.”

Oh, but your postings are a window to your mindset, your mentality and to a significant degree, you!

Some punk may eventually come up and rattle this old dog’s cage. It will change my life forever. But he won’t be around to see the grief he’s wrought. and that’s a promise.

---

Here! Here! Don’t show up at my house late at night uninvited!

Whisker, thank you for posting the link. Interesting story.

Never been threatened for my life standing in my own house. Must be a horrible experience. I would prefer to be armed in that situation.

-J.

Quote:

---

news story Channel 3 I know many of you disagree with me. Also, I do not appreciate to Chris or Eyequide or whomever commenting on my mentality. You do not know me or my mentality. I have an open mind. I feel honored that Jon wasted a whole hour.

---

Mine was a generalization with the liberal argument, not (You) the person. I am careful not to attack the individual, but I will the argument. If you lump yourself with that mindset, well then that would be your own doing.

This comment taken from your link:

“Opponents said that the bill will only encourage gun violence and will leave people unsure of whether others around them are carrying hidden weapons.”

This has not happened anywhere CC has been legalized. Think about this:
How many criminals care about this? Are they going to put all of their guns away now?

The only people carrying concealed weapons in WI right now are criminals. So anyone should be able to walk the streets of downtown Milwaukee without fear, because no criminal has a weapon in their pocket.

That person breaking into your house in WI is not armed with a weapon, because no one in WI has concealed weapons.

Do you agree with any of the above? You may be lucky enough to never have to need a gun or protection device in your life to protect you or your family. But chances are, if you need one, you would be begging and pleading “If I only had a gun!” The difference between you and I is that if and when that time would come, I would have a say in the outcome. You will not.

I have been keeping up on this thread/s since it was started. Like I had stated, I am fairly nuetral. I am from MN and have chosen not to CC. I did really consider for a bit but decided against it. I figured by doing so I may be putting myself in a postion that would be hard to get myself out of. (without using the weapon)
I just want your opinions on what some of my reason not to were. Remember, these are things I thought of that made me think I beter not carry, and I am wondering what you guys that do carry would do if put in this position.
Say you are at (anyplace) and end up having a problem with someone and they start trying to assault you. They present no weapon, just bare fists. Do you whip out the pistol or buck up and fight em’ the way they are fighting you? I figure it may be to tempting to whip out the piece and think it will end it all. But are you going to shoot someone over a scuffle? Cause we all agree I’m sure, if someone put a gun in our faces and they didn’t pull the trigger, they better be ready to face the wrath of being disarmed and possibly using it on them. So in a situation like that I felt I did not want to even have the option of making a terrible mistake when I could have just used my god given talents to do my best. Do you agree?
Now I also know theres the outside chance of having a situation where a weapon is presented to you first and I am not debating what to do in those situations. So save it.
And in closing, like I said before, I am nuetral, you don’t need to drill me. Believe me, if I go somewhere that I think I will need a piece, I’ll grab one from the house and have it me, permit or not.

I’d say if I were out CC the chances that I’d be in a environment that supports the likelyhood of a fistfight would be non existant. Going into a tavern would be illegal and, really, where else do people fight? If I were standing in line at a gas station and some drunk came in slobbering trying to push me into a fight I can’t imagine needing to “use” a gun to try to scare him off. For one there is a teller that can easily call the cops. Second it would be far easier to simply remove myself from the situation. Third, it take two to tango!

Now, if I’m in line at the same gas station and some meth head comes in waving a pistol around making threats a guy certainly can’t just reach for a gun either. A person needs to play it cool and take advantage of the possibility that the scumbag may leave w/o incedent allowing someone to call the cops. If things did escalate the person carrying concealed still has to (in my line of thinking, correct my if I’m wrong) play cool and hope not to have to draw the weapon. If the situation goes way south, and your forced to draw the weapon you have to pick the very best time to do so. Suprise is a much more effective “tool” than a weapon alone is. Example. Said scumbag fires a shot into the air or someones body, possibly the guy CC. In an instant one needs to be able to draw and advance on the shooter and incapacitate them quickly. If the shooter is showing they are going to again shoot a person I think the person CC has the responsibility to protect themselves and family by any means necessary. If that means a shot into the drug scum so be it. In a situation like that I doubt anyone can accuratly predict who the next victim would be.

Thankfully it is rare to never that anyone here would ever be in such situation. But, like wearing seatbelts, carrying spare tires, or having insurance, at least if you need it, you have it.

I was once robbed by an armed gunman. The dude had the drop on me and had I been carrying he would have had two guns instead of just my wallet. It is alarming in Wisconsin how many law abiding people go out and get absolutely blasted and drive. Many of these people have never been caught. This is a much larger threat to your personal well being than anything related to gun protection. Even so, Wisconsin is still a very safe place to live. Having concealed weapons by good folks wouldn’t change that either way. I do think 100,000 people handling loaded pistols each day, there would be accidents and incidents. I don’t believe any of the studies. whomever paid for them got back what they paid for. There are not enough permit holders out there to impact crime rates. OK, I am done. Freeking ice conditions are making me crazy.

Very good question.
If a situation like that presents itself, run.

If that is not an option, yell at the top of your lungs “Stop!” “I do not want trouble!”

If that does not stop the situation, prepare to deliver or get a whooping.

A handgun may not be the only weapon I carry. You won’t know. I will use whatever means necessary to end the conflict to my likings. I will take responsibility for the fallout if need be.

A handgun is a tool of last resort. You best be able to prove that in a cout of law in front of 12 people.

You have to accept that responsibility everytime you leave the house and CC.

It may not be for everyone. No one is telling you that you HAVE to carry, but the liberal left want to tell you that you CAN’T! And that is against your constitutional rights. I don’t know how I can make that point any clearer. I don necessarily want to convert anyone over to my way of thinking that CC is for them. That is not what I am trying to say to ANYONE! For most people, it is not something that they would do. I respect that. I would like to hear the liberal left or uninformed tell me that “Yes, you do have the constitutional right to keep and bear arms.” If I chose to, it is my business. If you don’t, that’s yours. It doesn’t make you a bad person! I don’t feel carrying a handgun makes me superior to anyone in any way! That is not what this is about! This conversation keeps getting turned around to that type of talk. And it is flat out wrong.

Quote:

---

I was once robbed by an armed gunman. The dude had the drop on me and had I been carrying he would have had two guns instead of just my wallet.

---

Kev,
What are some of the details behind this robbery? Were you alone? Where was it? What time of day? Thinking back on it now, what would you have done different? That is the kind of thing people can learn from.
Thanks!

Eron, this is the stuff i think about and i agree wth you. If i were caught in a situation where the guy wanted to beat my as- good i’d be looking for any door or window to get out of and run. Not because im chicken or don’t want to stay and watch him get his as–beat with a lamp or something. If im carrying and he does get a good shot on me and i go down am i going to end up dead because he knocked my butt out and then took my gun and shot me. Thats why i would run, don’t care how big or small he is and how it would look in court to the jury. If im threated by a guy coming at me with a ball bat and i have no way out im going to use my gun warning him first if theres time, if not im going to try to get a shot off in the right place. Im all for owning a handgun for my and my familes protection and in some other situation if with extreem need, extreem need is the key word here. The way the laws are written is very good, this extreem way would border a jury decesion in alot of instances im sure. The little old lady or anyone in a parking lot etc. that is in very serious danger of loosing thier life, then i’d use it. No one wants to take a serious beating but if it were me taking one and the other guy wants to shoot the one thats beating my butt to the point where he thinks i might or theres a good chance im going to die, put a bullet in his arm or leg, i’d do the same and take my chances with a jury. Here in Iowa when it comes to situations like this the guy who took the beating is in court defending the guy who was protecting him through testamony and the jury finds him innocent because theres good evidence that he may have saved my life, or i in the reverse saved his. A reasonable jury will find the defendant innocent, ive seen it happen. One of my sons friends was being followed by a car with 3 guys in it as he was going home. When they got thier one of the guys got out and followed his friend to the door, his friend seen this guy following him and went inside his house and got his shotgun, loaded it and steped out on the porch and pointed the shotgun at the guy and told him to leave. He didn’t let his draw down and by then the police were on thier way because of a call that was made by a neighbor. The police came arrested the guy who was following my sons friend. After he told the police what was happening and his wife and son were in the house and he said he didn’t want to see them get hurt the police arrested my sons friend also for not being inside the house with the gun drawn but on the outside on the porch, the law says not on the outside. Well after he went to court it came up infront of a jury and the jury found him innocent of any crime because he was protecting his family, even though it was on the outside of the house. They put themselves in his place and found him innocent of any crime because he was protecting his family. If a person has a permit to carry and finds that he is needed in an extreem situation i think that almost any jury would find the defendent innocent, but it has to be extreem, this is why i would run and try to find an exit if someone was going to try to give me a serious butt kicking. I can avoid everthing by leaving, even if its through a window but in another situation(s) i’d use it but only for good reason and only if i think a jury would agree with me too, part of owning a handgun. I’ll bet the test and the instructors situation statements in the clasroom that they give for a handgun is full of these types of questions to find out the persons frame of mind befor its issued. One thing is forsure the permits go to the competent only.

Quote:

---

It may not be for everyone. No one is telling you that you HAVE to carry, but the liberal left want to tell you that you CAN’T! And that is against your constitutional rights. I don’t know how I can make that point any clearer. I don necessarily want to convert anyone over to my way of thinking that CC is for them. That is not what I am trying to say to ANYONE! For most people, it is not something that they would do. I respect that. I would like to hear the liberal left or uninformed tell me that “Yes, you do have the constitutional right to keep and bear arms.” If I chose to, it is my business. If you don’t, that’s yours. It doesn’t make you a bad person! I don’t feel carrying a handgun makes me superior to anyone in any way! That is not what this is about! This conversation keeps getting turned around to that type of talk. And it is flat out wrong.

---

Very well said Chris

Ron

Quote:

---

In Wisconsin we are having problems funding our schools and many have no health care or have had their jobs sent over seas. We have many more important things to work on that have been ignored. Next session we get to hear them fight about Gays marrying which is already illegal here. I am sick and tired of this two step. Incumbants of either party are awash in dirty campaign cash, people have been indicted for bribery and corruption. We are in a war to stamp out weapons of mass destruction that never existed. Huge oil companies are squeezing the life out of our economy. We should certainly stay the course.

---

WK,

I couldn’t agree more. I’ve read the studies on concealed carry and most say that it does not significantly increase or decrease crime and that it has little effect on the number of gun accidents. If the purpose of the law is to reduce crime, then it seems like a waste of time and a distraction from the real problems we are facing. I think the real purpose of the bill has been accomplished during this gubernatorial election year. Our name-calling and chest-beating are evidence of that.

Am I going to be a lot safer now that the veto has been overridden? I doubt it. Would I have been a lot safer if the law would have been enacted? I doubt that as well.

Curt
gun owner, non-carrier, daily listener of left-wing commie pinko public radio

“Can’t we all just get along?” Rodney King

“Am I going to be a lot safer now that the veto has been overridden? I doubt it. Would I have been a lot safer if the law would have been enacted? I doubt that as well.”

Is Doyle going to give up his armed body guards now? He does not have to worry about all those law abiding citizens who will not be carrying a handgun.

What about Constitutional rights?

I am still waiting for anyone to answer that question. Or show me where I am wrong. I will put my gun away tomorrow if you can convince me.

The Right to keep and bear…
Not keep only.

The Right to free speech…
Not Free until you disagree with me…

Freedom of Religion…
Not Freedom of Religion, only if it is the same as mine.

Does anybody see my point here? I say this rhetorically, but that is my whole premise for making these posts.

Like I said, I am not trying to convert anyone over to the CC side. But at least acknowledge my rights as an American to do so.

Quote:

---

What about Constitutional rights?

I am still waiting for anyone to answer that question. Or show me where I am wrong. I will put my gun away tomorrow if you can convince me.

---

Tuck,

I don’t want you to put your gun away since you can legally carry it according to the laws of your home state of Minnesota.

As far as Constitutional rights…

The “right to bear arms” is the second amendment of the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution. The purpose of the Bill of Rights was to limit the power of the federal government, not state or local governments.

The fourteenth amendment was later added to the Constitution to, among other issues, make sure that certain fundamental parts of the original Constitution were not limited by state and local governments. The Constitutional rights considered fundamental (by the Supreme Court) are considered “incorporated.” The second amendment is not among those protected amendments and is considered “unincorporated.” It is possible for the second amendment to become protected by the fourteenth if the Supreme Court were to hear an appeal dealing with local or state gun control. The court seems reluctant to do this and is relying on gun control cases from the 1800’s.

Since the second amendment applies only to federal law, states can rightfully write their own laws on issues like gun rights. So loathe them or love them, state lawmakers are not being unconstitutional when they limit the rights of individuals to bear arms.

Quote:

---

I would like to hear the liberal left or uninformed tell me that “Yes, you do have the constitutional right to keep and bear arms.”

---

I’m not really a liberal or uninformed, but probably am more left than right. Since you live in Minnesota and your state has chosen to allow concealed carry, you absolutely have the legal right to carry if you choose.

Respectfully,

Curt

14th Amendment to the Constitution.

Section. 1. “All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

I respectfully disagree with you. My point is that I disagree with the premise that a “State” could take away my rights as a citizen of the United States to “Bear” arms.

The black States are the minority that hopefully see that someday.

Wow! Past my bed time…but….

Quote:

---

Since the right to life implies a right to the means to protect that life, the individual’s right to his own life necessarily implies a right to keep and bear arms suitable for self-defense. In this place and time, that means a handgun, small enough to be carried at almost all times. The presumption, therefore, of a government that respects its citizens’ right to life and self-defense must be that they are permitted to carry arms to protect themselves.

---

And to the poster a few pages back about being in the middle of a robbery or scuffle. Chris spelled it out exactly…run away if you can…do whatever can be done to remove yourself and your loved ones.

Night all!

Just some interesting reading on States’s rights vs. Second Amendments and other gun rights sites.

NRA article on 2nd Amendment

Public Law Research Institute

Keep and Bear Arms site

Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (I’m not making this one up!)

Pink Pistols (a pro-gun organization for homosexuals. Not making this one up either.)

In light of all of our disagreements and individual thoughts and interpretations on this topic, I’m grateful to live in a country and culture where we can openly debate this.

Can’t wait for the weather to get better. I need to get out of the house and away from the computer.

CR

Thanks for posting. I find it making my points even clearer. I was going to cut and paste a bunch of the excerpts, and put them in this post, but that would be redundant.

The 14th amendment in essence (Where I believe it pertains to gun “Control”) is ensuring that minorities are afforded the same rights as us by virtue of being born here in the US as anyone else.

Again I refer to the map of States which have seen the “Light” and overturned the standing “Laws” and now permitt CC. This argument has been debated to death in the H of R and Senate by people a heck of a lot smarter than me where it comes to constitutional law. The majority has spoken there, and will continue on into the future.

This has been a great debate, and I thank all of you for your diverse views on this subject. As always, it is beneficial for everyone to see all points of view. We may never all agree, but we are free to say our piece! Except maybe in Wisconsin.
Tuck

I guess we were on the same page this morning Chris.

Not to change the subject…but there are 111 reply’s to this post. Everyone debated in a professional way. No personal attacks/name calling and so on.

Many threads like this have gone “south” and had to be locked down because they became shouting matches.

My hat’s are off to all involved!

“It is alarming in Wisconsin how many law abiding people go out and get absolutely blasted and drive.”

WK, There is either an inherent contradiction in this statement or Wisconsin should pass a law prohibiting drunk driving! Is not driving while drunk a potentially lethal situation? To to me it is infinately more dangerous than a law abiding citizen with a concealed gun!

Chris and Brian,

I agree with you both on this being a good and thoughtful debate free of flaming. When I commented earlier about chest-beating and name-calling, I was mostly referring to the world outside IDA where there have been some nasty and outrageous things said on both sides of the issue.

I certainly have learned a lot about the topic since Slop’s first post a few weeks ago. Who would have thought that someone who refers to themself as “Slop Bass” would lead me to do some independent research on consitutional evolution and states rights? Thanks Jeremiah.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Curt

It has been a spirited debate. I suspect not many, if any, minds were changed. I did not learn much of anything new on the issue of CC itself, however, some old impressions were reinforced and some new impressions were gained, which is good!

NOt to change the subject but I noticed a notification up at the PD about colored guns.

I would hope that NO ONE would buy one of these guns.

If you have ever seen a training (orange) pistol then you know what I mean. These dang things are coming out in colors to match what you wear. All kinds of colors and what kills (excuss the pun) me is that they look just like a training gun. And therefore just like a toy.
Please do not purchase those guns. If it barks like a dog it is a dog. If it shoots like a gun make it look like one.
My 2 cents.

Here is one of the sites that sells the coating.
Check out some of the pics. Colored guns

I don’t see an issue with this. The issue is with toy guns looking too realistic. These are real guns.
What am I missing?

Works both ways..
See a kid playing with a blue gun used to be I wouldn’t think anything of it. With this i would have to question it every time.
If it is a real gun keep it looking like one. We teach kids to watch out for guns. Show them what they look like, feel like and now with multicolors. I don’t want it to be Sheak to have a colored gun. I think that is just going to far.