Ted,
One other item that caught my eye… why did you direct him on the point of “also advising him that he make it clear to DNR that he was contacting me”? Wouldn’t you want to allow the actual process to work before having him bring the media to the table? I would just like to caution you when moving forward with this. Don’t look for a smoking gun before it was ever fired! Good luck with the story!
Shane,
thanks for the post, you’ve made some excellent points. You are correct, I do jump in for Bass Fisherman….and I know we probably have the worst rap of anyone out there and are always grouped as a whole. So I do understand what you are saying…
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But to group all CO’s and their actions based on one individuals actions is a bit reactionary, don’t you think.
I haven’t grouped all CO’s in this case, I’ve just formed my opinion on this particular event by what has been given to me. (but yes, due to a generalization)
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The comment “having been harrassed myself by CO’s before, I woulnd’trust their actions for a minute ” is pretty telling on how you feel about all CO’s
I know that may sound bad, but it’s true…While I repsect all CO’s/Law enforcers, to use a bad cliche – I sleep with one eye open when confronted by them. This is the direct result of encounters along with experiences I’ve seen over the years…More so police than CO’s.
The sad truth is that there are many out there just like me….just like there are probably many out there that hate me for being a bass fisherman.
I apologize if my quick to jump to a political type discussion has offended you. I think maybe this post, despite possible negative connotation, will enlighten us all to not pre-judge an entire group based on the “alleged” actions of a few. It will take time, but I know I’ll work on my preconceived notions 
Thanks Shane
Slop,
Your up rather early.
It’s only human nature to feel the way you do, we all do it. I just hope that if Ted does an article he points out that there are many thousands of positive LE contacts through out the state every year and that only a small percentage of one percent result in abuse.
In a perfect world there wouldn’t be any abuses of authority by LE officers (or in any profession), but since were all human, that just isn’t going to happen.
Shane
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You guys ever hear that old saying?
“if it walks like a duck and sounds
like a duck, it must be a duck.”That’s all I’m saying
Slop….Do you realize what your saying right there ?
Remember it also includes 180 degree turn around…
Slop,
If i was a C/O or any law official, and I cam up to you with the normal line of questions, If you had that much electricity coming off of you…I’d be looking for something wrong…you are really putting off some bad vibes there …
Dave,
that’s the problem with typing, you can’t actually read how calm I am.
I know better than to be electric if confronted….
I’m sure many of you readers think I’m an 
, that’s fine, but I’m not afraid of telling my opinion or how I see things….Sorry, that’s who I am.
Dave,
That’s the scary part of all this. It’s ASSUMED that you have to act meek and submissive or any abuse heaped on you is justified. I’ve been hit in the head with flashlights, shoved over the trunk of a car, swore at, and have had guns pointed at me by law enforcement people. And I don’t break the law! I was guilty of being male and that was enough. I consider myself lucky to be alive at this point. Now when I’m in the same place as a cop I’m nervous as hell because of past experience. Electricity? You betcha. I don’t want anything to do with them. I’ve heard that the attitude of some law enforcement types is justified because they have to deal with bad people. The same guys tell me I shouldn’t be down on cops even though the majority of encounters I’ve had with them have been ugly and abusive. That’s a double standard and I think it’s wrong. Respect should work both ways.
Rootski
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Dave,
that’s the problem with typing, you can’t actually read how calm I am.
I know better than to be electric if confronted….
I’m sure many of you readers think I’m an
Slop….An A$$ ? No way no how…not at all…I truely believe you speak with passion…I am mearly letting you know how an outsider looks at your posts…one who doesn’t know you…Just like a C/O or a low enforcement officer would…
Just an observation Slop thats all…
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Dave,
That’s the scary part of all this. It’s ASSUMED that you have to act meek and submissive or any abuse heaped on you is justified. I’ve been hit in the head with flashlights, shoved over the trunk of a car, swore at, and have had guns pointed at me by law enforcement people. And I don’t break the law! I was guilty of being male and that was enough. I consider myself lucky to be alive at this point. Now when I’m in the same place as a cop I’m nervous as hell because of past experience. Electricity? You betcha. I don’t want anything to do with them. I’ve heard that the attitude of some law enforcement types is justified because they have to deal with bad people. The same guys tell me I shouldn’t be down on cops even though the majority of encounters I’ve had with them have been ugly and abusive. That’s a double standard and I think it’s wrong. Respect should work both ways.
Rootski
Thats a tought one to come up against Rootski…I have never been in that position so I really cant react to that post…
My post to Slop was an outsiders view of his use of text, words, specificly the action words….but he does speak with passion…
With all due respect to ALL…Man, I don’t get out enough!
Maybe that’s good though….
Last nite i tried entering a long post..and the computer froze up when hitting “OK, submit”
I’ve written at least one outdoor column every week since 1973. Most are pretty easy. Some are real tough. This issue must be handled in a news story rather than a column. Too much is on the line. The situation calls for facts. Fair, accurate and honest reporting…or maybe not reporting.
A career is on the line here. The warden finally called me after being ordered to by the Chief. He admitted he could have done things better–which is a lot, cause he is a very arrogant person.
People make mistakes. One mistake–no column or story–a pattern of un-corrected mistakes demand attention. This particular warden has done a number of things over the past couple years which are far beyond his authority. I have documented three different scenarios from at least two sources each.
My question is–does the DNR allow this to happen because of a ‘corporate mentality’? Generally accepted behavior amongst the ranks of gray?
The behavior of this warden in this instance–and two others–clearly demonstates abuse of sportsman’s 4th amendment rights.
If other wardens are doing the same thing it needs to be documented…and reported. I will write nothing until all information is presented to Chief Randy Stark. It’s better for the resource if one bad apple is dealt with quietly. However, if a ‘corporate mentality’ of abuse extends to the Chief the gloves come off.
Does anybody have documented PROOF of abuse? will you go on record? I have a DUTY to be fair, accurate…or maybe silent…and that’s why I seek your help! Thanks!
Continuing on…my outdoor columns take me less than an hour to write. So far I have probably 15-20 hrs. on research alone. I see this as a major story. Gotta get it right…or not write it.
Thinking about just doing a COLUMN…(which is my opinion)about actual enforcement powers of DNR. I’ve done several extensive interviews with Chief Stark who states “even some other people in law enforcement think wardens have more authority than we actually do. We are bound by the same constitution as other L.E. organizations”.
Mr. Cass was aware of this and was stonewalled by the DNR in getting response. That’s when he contacted me. I advised him about the complaint procedure, contacted the Chief to voice information that a citizen apparently was being ‘stonewalled’ and that I was watching how this whole thing would proceed.
After being ORDERED by the Chief, the warden contacted me. In essense, admitted a mistake. No story here. Problem handled. If there is a PATTERN of this kind of stuff, then there is an important story.
If not, I’m thinking column–tell the people the parameters of law enforcement authority and the complaint procedure.
It is clear than many Wisconsin folks grant DNR LE more authority than they actually have. When you run from a little dog his instinct is to chase you. If you know your RIGHTS and report attempts at illegal intimidation while working within the framework of due respect for LE and compliance when THEY are operating within guidelines, it seems to me that everybody benefits.
I doubt you find what you’re looking for from anyone on this board Ted. But good luck to ya anyways.
And I’d still like to know what that warden planned to do with that fisher pelt if nothing had been said about it.
In every organization and in all walks of life there exists that 2%. Authority can be very intoxicating and corrupting. I believe it is not all that rare that law enforcement personnel ‘cop an attitude’ for whatever reason. My reasons for my opinion are based on my many experiences as a Harley Rider and, also, with my neighbor, a retired policeman. My most recent encounter with this omnipotent attitude is, briefly, as follows: A while back my neighbor built a fence on my property. The fence was so close to my garage, I could not walk between my garage and the fence to get to the back of my lot. The neighbor, the retired policeman, refused to move the fence, claiming the survey pins defining the property line between us had been moved before I purchased the house. So I spent $3,054.19 to have the property resurveyed only to discover the corners of my property had not moved after all. Confronted with the new survey, he still refused to move the fence. So one cold February night, I took the fence down and stacked it neatly in his yard. He put the fence back up on his own property. To this day, he refuses to speak to me or I Da’ Woman, who had no part of the dispute. I do not think, for one moment, that all law enforcement personnel think or act this way, but this superior attitude does exit.
Just my two per cents worth!
It should be said, to avoid any false impressions, I am a law abiding citizen, having never been arrested or even been ticketed for a moving violation.
Mack,
did you read anything I said? I’ve answered all those questions already and really don’t have anything more to contribute.
How old do you have to be to have experiences Mack? Not my fault you might not have as many or the same as me in our young lives.
ok mack
thank you
I didn’t really want to respond to this, but I’ve read this the past couple of days and of course want to put in my input. I have worked with several wardens and have been checked and questioned by these same wardens that know me. They have a job to do and they do it. I do think some are a little stuck on themselves, but they are doing there job. I have even worked with several people that push limits all the time on their athority. Is it right…maybe not. These people need to be taken care of by their departments or organizations they work for. If you have a complaint…file it, don’t just sit by and talk about it to everyone you know and sensationalize it.
Second thing…Ted I have read many of your articles. Do I like or agree with them all the time…no
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Continuing on…my outdoor columns take me less than an hour to write.
Some of your articles show it I’d have to say too. But you are a SPORTSMAN! You of all people should be doing an article on how good the CO’s are and law enforcement. They are doing everything they can to save resources and protect the creatures and environment that can’t protect themselves from us. CO’s and law enforcement have a hard enough time keeping a good image because of the few that work in it mess it up. Just like the example of bass fisherman. Do yourself a favor Ted…forget the story…hearing this stuff gets old on how someone was wronged. Do something on the guy who lost his fish house and do some good with your writing instead of being an
This is just my 2 cents and I’m like Slop, I’m not afraid to speak my mind. Also Ted I mean no offense and think you still are an OK guy
I wonder what those of you who feel this guy was damaged or had his rights violated, feel about our President allowing the FBI, NSA, CIA, etc. to illegally spy on us?
whoa-whoa-whoa!!!!!!! 
Let’s just keep this on the level that the conversation was intended to be……….COs.
Let’s keep politics out of it! 
Thanks!!!!
Imagine having a job where a majority of your contacts with people start off as a result of them breaking a law, or them knowing you are investigating them for this possibility.
As far as innocent until proven guilty, this is the job for the court system. The officer has to have probable cause that someone has committed a violation before filing a charge. And an officer only needs reasonable suspicion to be able to investigate an incident to come up with the probable cause.
That being said, I don’t think that any officer has any right or justification to abuse their power, but some need to realize that initializing an investigation is not equal to guilty until proven innocent.
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reasonable suspicion
Yep, those two words are what it is all about!
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did you read anything I said? I’ve answered all those questions already and really don’t have anything more to contribute.
It’s amazing Slop IMO, almost every reply to your post’s have been twisted, misinterpreted or taken out of context.
Do they just read your name “Slop” and forget to read your post.?
I think it’s good to support Law Enforcement officers and I do, but I don’t buy in to the “Brady Bunch” theory’s that this will in any shape or form ruin this guys life/career or more ridiculously that by us talking about an CO not doing his job correctly that ALL CO’s will be vilified by the public, hey were stupid but not that stupid.
So IMO this entire proccess has been handled perfectly and the results are starting to show the CO although against his will has returned the item and it sounds like he may be explaining his side of the story and maybe we don’t need an article now.
IMO the best part of the whole thing is hopefully this CO will think twice before he makes another poor decision.
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reasonable suspicion
Yep, those two words are what it is all about!
The question begs to be asked, what constitutes reasonable and who determines it? Reasonable suspicion is a highly nebulous term, coined by lawyers, designed to provide lots of cover. Often it is a unilateral decision made in the field, by an individual often acting alone, with the authority to do so. It may indeed be reasonable and I choose to believe in most cases it is, however, most cases are not all cases. Not all people are reasonable at all times and some hardly ever are. It is entirely possible to have your place/possessions “tossed” just because you were perceived as not showing the proper respect. Vic Macki (The Shield), although a fictional character, does have his clones in the real world! To not believe that would be the height of naivety IMHO! Also, I might add, not all institutions are efficient at cleaning up their poor performers. The easiest approach is to ignore them. I offer up the fields of Politics, Education and Religion as a few examples! The field of Medicine, also, comes to mind, even though most of their mistakes are buried! Can you say malpractice! The last, but certainly not least, is the once honorable Legal profession which is all but immune to any type of house cleaning (e.g. Where does the 500 pound gorilla sleep?) Time has come to quit bashing the bar, abandon the filibuster and get myself admitted to the bar, which opens at 4:00PM for happy hour! 
More 2 per cents worth!
EJ, your are dead right that “Reasonable Belief” or “Probable Cause” are grey areas. They have to be. Otherwise the only way you could prosecute someone is if you actually caught them red handed doing the crime. As any LEO will tell you, he or she will have to PROVE probable cause. A LEO’s perception of PC will always be challenged until which point they can walk on water. There is abuse of power in every walk of life. It is not exclusive to law enforcement. So, when I do see an article titled “WI DNR Abuse of Power” I do throw the “Brady Bunch Tag” on it.
I don’t know the specifics on this case, therfore I am with holding judgement until the story comes out, if it ever does.
There is also an issue of libel. Anyone darn sure better have their facts straight before defaming someone elses charachter. Not saying anyone has….yet.
If it was me, I would use the system, and let the sleeping dog lay…
I can recount one time where I had a bad experience with a CO in this area.
Quite a few years ago, around 1995 or so, I was out scouting for some areas to hunt deer on public land. It was getting late in the evening and I got in my car and was headed down the dirt road out of the State land. A Dodge truck was coming at me in the opposite side of the road. He turned on his lights and pulled his truck to block the road. The officer got out and definitely had an attitude and started giving me 20 questions. What and why am I out here type of questions. I explained to him I was out scouting for deer. He then asked me if I was harvesting ginseng? I told him I wasn’t and he gave me a funny look. I seriously didn’t, wasn’t, and still don’t know what ginseng looks like. He then informed me the season opened the next day and gave me the riot act about it being illegal to harvest ginseng from State land. I again told him I was scouting for deer. He then did a body search of me and then went through my vehicle. He didn’t miss looking at any compartment in my car. Sure I was pissed at the time. But, I look at it in a different way. That officer lost alot more than me that day. He lost my RESPECT. Now, if I was like many people I would be lumping all officer’s into one big group and have a dislike for them all. But, this was one officer who thought he was the big dog that day. Since then, I have run into many differnt CO’s from WI and MN and have had great repoire with them. They have been cordial, polite, and have been willing to B.S. with me. So we have 1 bad CO in this area, so what? He has to live with himself.
AMWatson,
You hit it on the head. You don’t respect the man behind the badge if he doesn’t deserve it. It’s the Laws that actually are to be respected and adhered to. IF the man(or woman) enforcing them is deserving of respect, then show it. Just like in the military, you salute the rank, not the man.
I train many young and new officers and the best piece of advise I can give to them on how to treat people is treat everybody the same way that they would want their mother, sister, father, spouse, etc to be treated.
I’ll leave this alone now. And Ted if you do an article, keep it in perspective. The Wisconsin DNR as a Department does not encourage oppressiveness and overbearing behavior. Actually, in the last few years the department has really tried to turn around its public image to the point that a lot of Warden field time is now used for public relations.
Shane
After reading everyones post i can see a few things that a CO definately needs to do tooooo be a good CO and do his job like hes supposed to do. I care enought about what im doing that if im doing something wrong i need it pointed out to me and so do they First of all don’t take the fisher if theres not a total complete cause to do so without a doubt, not just a hunch, and next give a citation or warning with a reason why hes doing so if he thinks the guys done something wrong so its official. Who wants a Co to do his job halfway. Heres something thats always written in stone and should be followed, if there isn’t enough proof to ticket the guy that WOULD hold up in a court of LAW, not out in the field somewhere but in a court of LAW, NOT just his opinion, then the guy keeps the fisher or the CO should end up in court if at all possible with a good butt chewing from his boss if hes got any integrity. Heres the reason i think so, if he thinks im doing wrong and issues me a ticket and i have to spend the money on a lawyer and take time off from my work to go to court to defend myself when i shoundn’t have too, then he better be able to prove it or he needs to end up in court and be ready for a good rheeming from me and my lawyer and maybe an honest judge. I used to take things with a more gentle nature and try to overlook things because i had the attitude that we all make mistakes and have bad days, not any more. If im doing my job wrong then i don’t need my paycheck and need to be told by someone im doing wrong and to correct it as soon as possible. Because of our civil liberties which are slowly being eroded away, some of the younger guys can’t see it as much as us older guys but its happening slowly everyday which i will tell you of a few things in a minute. I see this thing happening all the time on a regular basis where Law inforcement is useing thier clout and supposed power to do what they want and don’t ever think about what thier doing or what would happen in front of a jury in a court of law after he issues a ticket wrongfully or just simply takes a fisher from some innocent trapper whos trying to make some pocket money and have a few extra bucks which is even worse. Im sorry guys i can’t overlook this type of thing, especially because its sounds like so simple of a situation that might not be an offense in the first place, what the heck would happen on a more involved offense? If a Co’s this darned dumb he wouldn’t stand a chance to prove anything in a court of law infront of a good lawyer. I know of a county sherrif and he told me that he pulls over people all the time on the local interstate that have out of state plates on thier cars and asks them where thier going, what thier doing and if they have any drugs aboard. Next this happens all the time around here, how do i know it does? its because i know of another person that works at a hotel here and they told me that they have had people more than once (more than once now) tell them they will never come back to this area because they have been stopped and asked the same thing and hasseled. Darn it, these guys are supposed to follow the law, they aren’t the Law. Is this a coincedence? heck no! the law of averages says its rampant here and alot of guys here with a position of power and has a badge will press thier point of view and what they think is right and what they want to do when ever they feel like it, they live in this country with laws that are supposed to come from the constitution, not make up laws as they go. They don’t care about the constitution or the bill of rights or they wouldn’t do these things, this is why i can’t stand it when someone of this type of position does this, they totally abuse thier power in thier jobs, end of story. Isn’t this what just happened to this guy with the fisher? Im sure Ted was smart enough to ask his questions right and listen for the right answers from this guy to see if its a full truth or if there was any room for doubt befor he typed what he did. Ive learned to break things down and see what the situations are and what the evidence says and how it points to where and after doing this what seems the most obvious to do. For very good reasons that comes from things thats happened in the past to me and my family im to the point where i can’t tolerate simple mistakes that are a no brainer especially when anyone else would be capable of making this decesion, theres absoultely no excuse for it, none and this Co should take this to mind and learn from it. Sure everybody has bad days and gets ticked off but im sure not going to make someones day rough on them because i’ve got something eating at me especially to make a wrong decesion and take someones fischer when it wasen’t even justified in the first place. Another thing im really tired of hearing is how rough thier jobs are, some times there jobs are rough and very demanding but if they can’t control themselves get another job that they can handle. Alot of those guys don’t have any idea what hard work is to the point that you end up with permant injury from the job. Yes some have ended up with permant injury but if they learned anything from it they wouldn’t take it out on anyone and wouldn’t feel sorry for themselves. This kind of thing really ticks me off, especially because its a no brainer in the first place and one that my 19 year old daughter could use better judgement than this guy did. Heres something for all you younger guys to remember and too fight for in the future that i’ve seen posted here alot about loosing rights. Its not the liberals or the conservatives who want to or are taking your rights away, its the zelous minded people in both parties, if they have a party to hide in, who are paranoid of freedom and the rights that freedom produces. Why, because they want things to go thier own way for thier own agendas. Thier are many who are in constant favor of repealing our constitution in whole, not in part but in whole so they can have things thier way and they all want us to do things they want us to do. They are subtly trying to change it in thier favor and our founding fathers knew this would happen and hoped that people whould see this and take action . I dont want to make anyone paranoid or put the wrong thoughts in anyones head but thier are alot of people who want it thier way, not the right ways that freedom produces. When it comes to the point where something is made into law that they don’t like they sui and try to repeal it. It dosen’t make any diffrence what party they are, there are pros and cons from both sides. If the extreem left liberals had it totally thier way it would be a too much of some things that we would consider completely loose and none guided. If the extreem conservatives had it thier way we wouldn’t be able to smoke, drink any alcohol at all, no birth control and we’de all have to put up with our mistakes from not having birth control and we’de be cast aside because we didn’t do it thier way. Am i being extreem, no. Im always on the lookout for anyone who wants it thier way only on all topics when it comes to my individual freedom to have some fun in life and to be able to protect myself from dangers that others have created by thier agendas. No room for anything else in my opinion. If anyone even comes subtley close with anything similar my eyes are open. Hey we all stand up for freedom and we all want it to stay that way with no excuses or bullc–p agendas, everybodys got to do thier jobs right and think whats for the benifit of others or it creats problems that can’t be lived with or over looked by someone else. Whats best for everybody, living with permanent mistakes or trying to stop them befor they happen. We all make mistakes and i don’t want my mistakes infinging on others, if they don’t want it that way, turn thier heads and leave me alone and look the other way. I think we need a thread on what everybody thinks our right as Americans are, what they think it takes and will take in the future to keep it this way. I know im tired of the lawmakers and ill informed telling us what ideals they think we ought to live by. Anyone want to start a thread where we can get everything out in the open for those that think diffrent than us and they can read and see what we really think like and how were not going to stray from these ideals. I like the way im living for my safety and protection. I think its good medicine that might not taste so good to some if we did start a thread.
tedpeck, I personally have never had a problem with the local COs around this part of the state. In fact, just about all of my experiences have been cordial. The one that wasn’t involved being asked where my fish were. After showing him my fish he then wanted to look in my other cooler to make sure I didn’t have fish there too. I let him check but it just didn’t seem right to me. I don’t know what would have happened if I said that other cooler was none of his business. It seems like he should have needed a reason to see the other cooler(like seeing me put a fish in there) or observing suspicious activity. Most people would say if you have nothing to hide it should be no big deal but it still just didn’t feel quite right.
I hope you monitor the actions of the “overly ambitious” warden in Rock County. If you know three instances where he’s stepped over his bounds I have a feeling there might be some others where people are too scared to come forward. Bad wardens are no different from bad cops, bad factory workers, or bad teachers, they need to be replaced. Good luck with your story.
Sorry for my off-topic comparison of this question and another (gasp) political one.
I too have never had a negative experience with a warden or cop. I was (am) under the impression that if you treat them with respect, they will do the same.
That being said, I am sure there are bad apples in all professions.
I would have to do some serious fact checking on an issue like this before attempting to publish an article about it.
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