More on Gas – Supply & Demand.

  • jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #1247940

    ….or moron depending what you want to believe. Interesting article from yesterday Pioneer Press.

    Posted on Tue, Nov. 08, 2005

    High heating bills? Thank Greenpeace

    MARK YOST

    If you were wondering how the planet suddenly ran out of natural gas as you sat shivering in your house with the thermostat set at 62 so you could preserve a modicum of your retirement money, just look at a 2003 study from the National Petroleum Council (www.npc.org). You’ll learn that there’s plenty of natural gas, much of it right here in the U.S. The problem is that environmental groups won’t let us get at it.

    Today natural gas provides about 25 percent of U.S. energy needs, generates about 19 percent of electrical power, and is used for heating and cooking in more than 60 million homes. The greenies reluctantly embraced natural gas about a decade ago because it is undeniably cleaner and more efficient than oil or coal. But at the same time they were pumping up demand for natural gas they also were restricting supply by blocking any new drilling or added infrastructure to deliver already discovered reserves. This led to the high prices Minnesotans and other Americans are seeing today, something that was predictable two years ago.

    “There are laws and regulations that unnecessarily hinder pipeline and infrastructure siting or interfere with the functionality of the market in ways that lead to inefficiencies,” the NPC said in its September 2003 report, “Balancing Natural Gas Policy.” “Overall, these conflicting policies have contributed to today’s tight supply/demand balance, with higher and volatile gas prices.”

    This is nothing new. Alaska has been trying for three decades to build a pipeline that would deliver an estimated 35 trillion cubic feet of known natural gas reserves from North Slope fields to us here in the Midwest (annual U.S. residential consumption is about 5 trillion cubic feet). The continental shelves just off our coast are estimated to hold about 58 trillion cubic feet. Preliminary estimates of the Rockies see 11 trillion cubic feet.

    Undeterred by these uncomfortable facts, environmentalists continue to thwart new production and infrastructure at every turn.

    When the greenies’ favorite bogeyman, President Bush, invaded Iraq, they started carping again about our need to wean ourselves from “foreign” energy sources, i.e., Mideast oil. We need, they said, to develop reliable domestic sources of energy that don’t require us to invade oil-rich nations to guarantee supply.

    What, may I ask, would they call 93 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in Alaska and off-shore? Adding insult to injury, their obstructionist policies and draconian regulations are driving U.S. energy companies to cultivate foreign sources of natural gas — exactly what the greenies said they didn’t want — when we have so much natural gas here that it’s practically bubbling out of the ground.

    “North America is moving to a period in its history in which it will no longer be self-reliant in meeting its growing natural gas needs,” the NPC said quite presciently in 2003. “Government policy encourages the use of natural gas but does not address the corresponding need for additional natural gas supplies.”

    In the perfect world of the Sierra Club and Greenpeace, it’s all off limits. Last year the Greenpeace ship MV Arctic Sunrise sailed to the Coronado Islands off Baja California. That’s where ChevronTexaco would like to build a liquid natural gas facility to accept LNG tankers, something Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan encouraged two years ago. No way, the greenies said.

    “The islands are an important habitat for wildlife, home to one of the most diverse seabird colonies, gray whales and harbor seals,” Greenpeace said. “All face devastation from the construction of a LNG terminal.”

    This, in short, is why Minnesotans will pay $13 per million BTUs this winter for natural gas while the Chinese will pay less than $5 and Australians less than $4. The problem is not too much demand, but unnecessary and illogical restrictions on supply.

    So the next time you get a mailing from Greenpeace or the Sierra Club (or the Democratic Party), send it back with a note that reads, “I already gave,” and include a copy of your utility bill.

    Yost is associate editor of the Pioneer Press editorial page. Write him at [email protected] or at the Pioneer Press, 345 Cedar St., St. Paul, MN 55101.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59988
    #395449

    Oh for pete’s sake! Now Big Oil is blaming environmental groups? Anything to take the heat off (sorry for the pun) themselves.

    If Bush really cared, he would just buy out the E-groups and there would be pleanty for all. ’nuff said, next subject.

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #395461

    “Raymond said he could not confirm the specific price increase, but that ExxonMobil had issued a directive in response to the storm disruptions “to minimize the increase in price while at the same time recognizing if we kept the price too low we would quickly run out (of fuel) at the service stations.”

    “It was a tough balancing act,” said Raymond, who said it was not price gouging.”

    I read it and yes, I beleive it.

    -J.

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #395466

    I must be a sucker too Jon.

    mikem
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 200
    #395468

    Is it Caribou, or care for you?

    TBOMN11
    Circle Pines, MN
    Posts: 608
    #395469

    So what you are saying is you think they raised the price of gas to an outragous price to protect ourselves from ourselves..

    I have 100 feet of ocean frontage, 8 miles outside of Yuma at $1000 per foot. All you have to do is give me $100,000 and I will send you the deed. Bank note is acceptable……..

    I can only guess what this has to do with anything:

    “Democrats had wanted the executives to testify under oath, but Republicans rejected the idea.”

    James Holst
    Keymaster
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 18926
    #395472

    You assume I think the price was outrageous.

    I did not like paying more, who would, but I did not find it out of line when you combine the influences of the market leading up to the hurricane and the damage caused by the hurricane itself.

    More likely I think they had no idea what the replacement cost of crude was going to be after the dust settled and they totalled up all the damaged and destroyed platforms + the unknows with the pipeline infrastructure.

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #395473

    Not exactly. What I believe happened was a direct result of a free market economy. Economics 101 – Basic principle. A product will sell for the price for which a consumer is willing to pay.

    People treat “Price Gouging” as something bad. I look at it as something that makes America great!

    I don’t even think “Big Oil” has come close to what I would consider price gouging….

    -J.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59988
    #395474

    Hold on…I’m PMing Whiskerkev….

    suzuki
    Woodbury, Mn
    Posts: 18393
    #395475

    All I know is I should have filled up yesterday rather than today.

    jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    #395476

    Joe,

    But back to the article. It’s basic premise is valid. Too many environmental regulations are a major force in the supply / demand equation. Want lower energy prices? Make the choice.

    -J.

    wetboots
    Oakdale MN
    Posts: 134
    #395484

    I’ll buy that ocean front property in AZ. Only if you throw something else in too.

    TBOMN11
    Circle Pines, MN
    Posts: 608
    #395487

    Gottcha covered there, I agree. I just think, as most of us do, that both sides use the other side as an excuse many times. I have seen very little that “Big Oil” has done to build consumer confidence over the last year. “Gouging” is an anbiguous word, it looks different through different eyes. Are there too many regs and laws in this country, you betcha, are there people that take advantage of other people, you betcha, I just don’t like being taken advantage of by people….that’s where I stand.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59988
    #395489

    Just a thought…maybe the recent election results are a sign of the future. I read 9 of 10 people feel they are being ripped off by oil and suddenly the price goes down by almost 50 cents….

    Republicans give us god, guns, and gays and ingnore the health of the population.

    Jeremiah Shaver
    La Crosse, WI
    Posts: 4941
    #395492

    BK, you only have that 2/3rds correct….the first two…yes, but not the last one. Not sure where you got that?

    TBOMN11
    Circle Pines, MN
    Posts: 608
    #395493

    Ben,

    I have the London Bridge I can throw in. You can pick it up in Lake Havasu City. That sounds like a bargain to me. PM me for the address to send the money.

    mikem
    SE Minnesota
    Posts: 200
    #395506

    I figure if Bush and the oil companies caused those hurricanes,I’d better keep quiet,I sure don’t want them mad at me.

    kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    #395523

    Can anyone explain the 19 cent price hike today from 7 AM to 4 PM??

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59988
    #395530

    It’s because Alvinmack started to talk about Mr Brasky…

    chris-tuckner
    Hastings/Isle MN
    Posts: 12318
    #395532

    Quote:


    Can anyone explain the 19 cent price hike today from 7 AM to 4 PM??


    $2.08 in Hastings at most stations.
    SA on the edge of town, $2.25 and empty as heck!

    Dave G
    Rochester, MN
    Posts: 631
    #395541

    In TBO/MN link http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5716705.html is the below statement:

    —————————————————————–
    Democrats had wanted the executives to testify under oath, but Republicans rejected the idea. “If I were a witness I would demand to be put under oath,” said Sen. Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii.
    —————————————————————–

    This statement does bother me as it makes me feel as if there is some kind of cover-up going on. Why would anyone not want the oil executives to give their statements under oath?

    Bassn Dan
    Posts: 973
    #395549

    You can hardly even see Rush Limbaugh’s lips move when people start quoting the “supply and demand” excuse for high gas prices.

    Dan

    chris-tuckner
    Hastings/Isle MN
    Posts: 12318
    #395552

    Did you see what happened to “Big Tobacco?” They were sworn in, and ended up getting taken to the cleaners! Things can get quite twisted when it is a “Point of law” where you have to be sworn in, and not “Questioning” where being sworn in is not necessary. If they are sworn in, they can open themselves up to huge law suits. They are not going to let that happen. In this case, I do not believe they should be sworn in. Now, if Congress feels there needs to be an investigation based on their beliefs pertaining to the answers given, yes, they will be sworn in, and be held liable for their answers. I do not believe it will come to that. I agree with the answers given. Profits are proportional to the dollars (Cost of goods sold.)spent to provide the service. Like it or not, this is capitalism at it’s best. Supply and demand drive this country and pricing. With this system, corrections take place at times, sometimes for the good, and sometimes for the bad. My company makes copper foil used on the manufacture of Printed Circuit boards. Copper prices have risen for the last 2 years, while our prices we are able to charge have plummeted! Copper was selling at $.87 a year and a half ago, and now it is around $1.85! Now, companies are getting busy again, and prices of our product HAVE to rise to break even. And they will. We will be accused of gouging. Corrections happen all the time. I think we were right to question them, and I believe the answers we received were adequate.
    My $.02.
    Tuck

    wetboots
    Oakdale MN
    Posts: 134
    #395555

    We have know one to blame but our selves(Americans). We want more, more, and more. Bigger trucks, more powerful engines, and bigger outboard motors on our bigger boats.
    We want the bigger house, but the same heating bill. We want the H2(ulgy by the way) with Civic MPG. And because there is such a demand for these things, something has to give.
    I’m not saying we should all drive a Toyota Prius, I want a ful-sized truck too. But we WILL pay for our over the top desires at the pump.
    With that said, lets all shout up and go fish!

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59988
    #395254

    Quote:


    Copper prices have risen for the last 2 years, while our prices we are able to charge have plummeted! Copper was selling at $.87 a year and a half ago, and now it is around $1.85! Now, companies are getting busy again, and prices of our product HAVE to rise to break even.


    Pay the new price or find an alternative.

    I need a boat to go fishing….

    futPWTure77
    Zumbrota, MN
    Posts: 176
    #395591

    Not exactly. What I believe happened was a direct result of a free market economy. Economics 101 – Basic principle. A product will sell for the price for which a consumer is willing to pay.

    People treat “Price Gouging” as something bad. I look at it as something that makes America great!

    I don’t even think “Big Oil” has come close to what I would consider price gouging….

    -J.


    Actually, the basic economic principle doesn’t apply to gasoline, as it is an inelastic good. That means that because there are no current alternatives or subsitutes, people will continue to buy gas, no matter what the producers set the price at. I guess I’ve been paying too much attention in Economics lately.

    Tony

    Jeremiah Shaver
    La Crosse, WI
    Posts: 4941
    #395592

    The Prime example of price gauging is 9-11. By the end of the day panicky people were lined up for miles to get gas….next thing you know gas prices jumped 50 cents in a matter of hours. THAT was price gauging for sure.

    I’d say what we’ve been seeing over the past few months may have been a little supply and demand, but we were taken advantage of b/c of it.

    chris-tuckner
    Hastings/Isle MN
    Posts: 12318
    #395609

    Quote:


    Pay the new price or find an alternative.

    I need a boat to go fishing….


    Problem is that there are at least two Chinese companies that can kick our a$$ due to a lot of reasons. People here are eager to jump on the cheap pricing! For all of us that [censored] about higher prices, we are our biggest enemy! Go to Wal Mart, and look where everything is made. We have given Chinese manufacturers of copper clad laminate a number of price increases, and they have not blinked, and accepted them. We can make more money selling to them than the US market! They in turn come here and sell us finished goods cheaper than we can make them in the US. Gotta love free trade!

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59988
    #395632

    Now! If they could only sell us our fuel!

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