Holy Gas!!

James,

I conceed you make very good points. At some point, we have to consider this economic warefare. Sometimes I think we are the only country in the world that plays by some kind of we are nice people rules. I would try to get all I could if I owned the gas. We are a nation addicted to the stuff. We either need to remove our addiction or twist the arms off the dealers. Many of the countries you listed as high priced also have a rigid class structure where only the rich can do anything leisurely other than the local pub. Driving two hours to fish is normal for many of us. Other countries would consider us wealthy for being able to do this. I read somewhere that the wealthy of this country keep getting farther away from the middle class and the middle class closer and closer to poverty. We need to draw a line somewhere in the sand.

I am in Indianapolis today. Gas is going for $2.99 to $3.49 per gallon depending on which side of town you are on.

We buy most of our gas from Canada and Mexico. Why do we let the Saudi’s/OPEC dictate the world price?

Diesel competes with home heating oil, I was told that is why diesel is higher. (I would argue this until I was blue in the face!)

Refineries are not at 100% capacity. Yep, they operate darn close to it. THEY HAVE TO! It is set up to be a constant operation. I was told that if Koch (Or whatever they call themselves now…) was to stop production, it would cost them $1m for every hour that they were down. Don’t know if that is true.

Get used to it. The prices will drop to $2.50, and we will all be happy because we will all be used to it!

My distributor of our products had to raise shipping costs from $25 to $35 per delivery. It adds up fast. Look to pay more everywhere! Groceries, clothes, electricity, Natural gas for the house this winter! Housing starts WILL drop dramatically! Carpenters, plumbers, electricians…better start learning to tighten the buckles now. It’s coming. No doubt about it! We are all going to hurt a lot more from all of this!

Koonce has told me that he’s received notice from ALL of his suppliers that all supplies that going into the making of BFT products are going up 15% – 20% across the board at the first of the year.

Plastics are made from? You guessed it. Petroleum. Paint for jigs? Petro-chemicals.

Like I said, all of us..

Our economy remains(ed) stable due to the fact that prices rose, and dropped. This kept broad spectrum pricing fairly constant. Some sectors see this influence faster than others. Mine for instance, copper prices went from $.80 to $1.50 in a years time. We were always able to offset this by purchasing copper on log term futures contracts. Not any more! Same thing with petroleum based products, and you would be very suprised how many of our everyday products are petroleum based! Petroleum prices, and add this unfortunate diaster in the south, we are all in for a very tough ride!

How much do you think the price of a cord of firewood will go up because of this?

heres my thoughts everybody, tell me if you think im right or close or just plain blind wrong, don’t worry you aren’t going to hurt my feelings any, too old for that and i’ll think about what your saying but heres my input. The guys in the white house have all the options of telling the opec countries to get off the high price bull for thier oil or were going to open up our reserves and knock the hell out of the oil prices. I grew up in a time when the presidents told the world its this way or go to —- and thats the way it was, nobody messed with america. Don’t kid yourself we have all kinds of oil in america in reserves and if we just let 1/20th of it go the the modern market it would bring opec to its knees, so why don’t we? I guess it makes more sense to keep paying those high prices and put the shipping industry on its knees like they are now, let alone everybody whos trying to make it and can hardly buy enough to eat let alone medicine. I have a real hard time thinking that that the present day politicians don’t have thier hands in the oil deals made around the world, try to remember im patriotic too, i just don’t like it when theres no one (really standing up for our oil needs) Its a supply and demand world of prices but who sets the prices? To me its other things besides the demand of the world oil needs. Theres just too many correlations between our president, his past and his families friends and the so called friends of the opec countries. Heres another point, our president knows this country runs on oil, he knows that if he dosen’t stabilize the price of oil its hard on everybody and every industry in america except the oil industry. Im going to say it and i know theres people who aren’t going to agree with me but if he really wants to makes things happen for our long term outlook he would threaten opec with, (hey drop your prices or else) because were not going to pay that price for it. Ask yourself this, if they drill in the artic national wildlife refuge where do you think that oil is really going to go? not to us thats for sure, its going to the highest bidder and to heck with a decent running economy here in america, don’t kid yourself. Ask yourself something else too, do you ever accurately hear on even a semi regular basis on how much oil is in reserve here in america? i’ll bet one thing for sure the opec nations know exactly how much we have but thier not worried because they know our administrations won’t open it and if they do its not going to be to bring down the price of oil where it should be, where everybody can make a living and our economy would run better. Heres another thing, shortages like these manufactured shortages make alot of money for a few people, nothing wrong with that unless you don’t care about our nation running smoothly or even semi smoothly, unlike it is right now. Its all a money game of hold out until the price goes up because of the investors with the highest profit in mind because were a resouce for a good living to those people and who cares about a smooth running america, wouldn’t it be nice to have someone say kiss our as—s were not going to force these prices on our citizens, ya but they do and are, and ya its because they don’t care or we would see a smooter running economy instead of in hardtimes like it is. I can see paying fair prices but because im an american i don’t like being put over an opec barrell (and friends) and getting reemed like thier doing now, too me its got very little to do with prices of supply and demand. They seen this coming along time ago and thats why were in the shape were in because thiers no one anywhere to stand up for our needs anymore and they knew when to take advantage of it. They could have built more refineries along time ago to meet and exceed the worlds demand for oil but they knew if they did that oil would be too cheap. Ya too cheap. Thier used to be some who would stand up for america but not anymore. Thats not called supply and demand its called good business for americans! Hey put the right guy in the whitehouse for a month and he’ed tell opec where to go and we’de have cheaper oil too.

What happened to our America?

I’ll be brief.

Our “New America” will not allow us to racially profile an enemy that has chosen covert cowardly acts of destruction as their motus opperendi for fear it may offend someone. They now live among us, eat our food, enjoy our freedom and act as they wish, only to turn around and kill our people by the thousands!

If we decided to open the Arctic Wildlife Area for drilling…I think the decision would bring OPEC to the realization that the US means business. If we threaten now, it means nothing. They know that!

We have been watered down to the point that being American means nothing to the rest of the world. ( I have been all around this world now, and have heard and seen this first hand!) We used to be a Super Power, and now we are a babysitter to the world! Send your poor, your weak, your downtrodden! We will give them welfare, and for the really ambitious, they can work at our McDonalds and sell us Big Macs in 10 different languages! But not in English!

Profile me an angry American who is sick and tired of being sick and tired! Tired of sending money to Tsunami/Earthquake/Tornado/Famine/Genocide victims, only to watch our country go through this alone. Sick of hearing how fat, happy and arrogant the US is perceived by the rest of the world. You know what? The rest of the world can kiss my from here on out. It’s time we care for our own first! Let’s go!

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The rest of the world can kiss my from here on out. It’s time we care for our own first! Let’s go!

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I really could not AGREE more!!

Ron

Great posts Eyeguide and Mossydan. I agree completely. Mossydan, thats what I was trying to say, I just can’t type it out right.

Some of you have said we have it so good compared to others. I could not agree more with you on that. I live a great life as I’m sure most of us all do too. But just because 20 other countries pay x amount of $ for their fuel, etc. does not mean we need to. Fuel has been between $0-$1.75 since its been around. Now in the last couple years it just doubles??? I understand completly prices climb every year, etc. We have been used to certain prices for certain things and we understand each year they will cost a little more. But to just bang it all out in a year or two on fuel is un-called for and will cause problems. That is too much to adjust to in such a short time. And that brings me back to Mossydan’s post and the reasoning behind this problem and the possible resolutions that COULD be put into effect, but don’t, and the reasons why. Supply and demand my #ss. More like excuses to gouge.

Find your self lucky if you have to cut your fishing days down from what ever to what ever. I can’t afford to even drive down the mile from my house to my spot. Why?
Paying on the house, elec, phone/net,care of the cats, car repairs,propane gas, and driving 50 miles a day back and forth to work costs me – leaves me with $25.00 A MONTH. That is what is left to go to the store with. That doesn’t enclude doctor visit’s I now have. Yes, I have been hiding a illness from you folks. I don’t wish to bring it up at this point in time. But while your worried how you’ll be able to afford your fishing or hunting so many days a week, I worry how I’ll make it to my next doctor’s appointment. It must feel really good to say you can cut down your fishing and hunting days from this amount to this amount of days.

All this complaining of this person or that country won’t get us anywhere. We are going to pay the price of gas wither we like it or not. Some of us have no choice.

I totally agree, if we had cheaper oil we could also do a hell of alot more. I know our constitution say freedom for all in need but does it say how many were suppose to help, we can’t help the whole world, thats supply and demand and survival of the fittest! We have to look out for ourselves and our country first and we need a fairly priced oil to do it, we can’t do it without it. Sorry guys i see too much crap going on between the lines from past experiences from other presidents and what they did and would have done today for us, thier present day americans. I don’t mind getting fed one spoonfull at a time if i have too but if the spoons too small i’ll starve.

None of us have a choice. Its bigger than one person or fishing one day here or there. Its the big picture and those impacts. Sorry to hear of your illness. Hope all works out for the best.

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None of us have a choice. Its bigger than one person or fishing one day here or there. Its the big picture and those impacts. Sorry to hear of your illness. Hope all works out for the best.

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Thank you ERonningen.
Know this my friends, I did not share this information to envoke sympathy or for you all to feel sorry for me – I do enough of that on my own. I am only pointing out that some of you have it alot better when all you have to complain about is you’ll have to fish or hunt less days now that gas prices are up. Yes, none of use have a choice as to paying what they want to charge us for gas. Some of us have less of a choice though.

And lets not forget while we complain and point fingers, at the cause, one being the hurricane, that some of the IDA members here have family lost somewhere because of that hurricane

This is exactly what I think that Chris is talking about. You and most Americans work their off and barely make it. I know that some have their toys and so be it. We have Vets living in the streets . With out them where would us Americans be. We cut the budgets of schools, police departments, fire departments, ect. BUT somehow the government can come up with billions of dollars for other countries during natural disasters. I will not hold my breath to see if any countries come and help with what we are going through now.

Since I am on a roll:

What is going on overseas, we are not at war but we are losing soldiers every day.

I will keep going to work, paying my bills, playing with my kids, helping those I can. As there is not much I can do about the gas prices.

I will pray for those that are lost to find their way home.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Ron

Hey guys im going to tell you the truth about whats going on in opec and in texas. I used to live there, just outside houston. I talked to guys who knew prices of chemicles, oil you name it. Did you know that in texas with the prices they way they are that the owners of oilwells, small, medium, and large production wells can’t make any money if the prices of oil drops below $30 a barrell, yes they shut the pumps off. Heres how that equates in our usage and thier profits. (1) Bush is from texas, (2) his buddies, family and political supporters from texas who donated millions to his re-election make one hell of alot of money the higher the prices go for crude oil because it comes from thier wells. (3) the opec nations make one heck of alot of money too just like bushes friends in texas. (4) every other country that has oil to sell makes alot of money. (5) Texas oil people make more money from all americans at $40 a barrell (6) theres enough discovered oil in saudi arabia to last 80 more years let alone the other major oil rich countries (7) texas oil people make more money at $50 along with all the other people who have thier money in oil. (8) Bush is from texas. (9) hes made alot of friends in the oil rich countries in the world and everybodys agreed to sell oil at higher prices and make more money and in texas too!. Gheese i didn’t realize that! (10) All the future oil predicions look good at the present prices and all the oil rich are very happy and plan on staying that way as long as possible, (11) americas having a hard time making ends meet with oil prices the way they are. (12) thiers no one who really cares because all of the rich in texas that are now friends of bush, but will dispise him if the price of oil drops because of thier earnings, oil related and petro chemicle refining productions, the thousands of and i mean thousands of chemicle plants in texas etc. and the mass production they are making and selling to china with its high demands for modern chemicles. and (13) texas is for bush and anyone who can keep the prices high for them and for the rest of the oil producing countries of the world because if they can keep the prices high in texas and all the oil producing countries they make alot of money and they can all stay friends. Can anyone see now the incentives behind the high prices like i can. Do you think anyone in texas is going to tell opec to bring its prices down tomorrow and loose re-election that is if jeb bush cares or will do it but thats years away, hey wait a minute theres nothing to worry about,,,theres jeb bush from florida that might run for the whitehouse and he’ll keep prices up so no need to be concerned as of now,,,Ya right! Oh i forgot to mention all those visits from the saudis at the bushs ranch too. Man thier all making alot of money from people i know and thiers still alot of oil in the world, or did they say thier isn’t. There is! atleast another 100 years of discovered oil and buy then the upper midwest will be the opec of the world with its corn based fuels, don’t believe me just ask Archers Daniels Midland (ADM) or Cargill with the alcohol plants thier putting up that produce 10’s of millions of alcohol a week just in Iowa let alone the ones in minnesota. Someting to look forward too.

I don’t mind your Bush-bashing conspiracy argument, but some of your facts are wrong. For example…

90% of worldwide oil comes from fields 20+ years old.
70% of worldwide oil comes from fields 30+ years old.
For every 4 barrels used today, only 1 new barrel is discovered.

An optimistic estimate of total oil past, present, and future is 1.8 trillion barrels. We’ve pumped 800 million of that… meaning we are just 100 million barrels (25m/year = less than 5 years) from running out. Period — no more oil left.

Let’s take this into a real life scenario… assuming consumption stays EXACTLY the same (forgetting blindly that China is waking up) the world has only only 36 years left of oil. Pretty scary considering the first patent for a gasoline powered automobile was granted to Karl Benz in 1886 and that cars were not mass produced until 1901 by Eli Olds. Not to mention that as other have pointed out, oil now is used for much more than just fuels, and it’s only continuing to grow.

My point is that you are extremely near sighted to assume we have a ton of oil and that the price should be cheap now and in the future. While I don’t disagree that their is a price gouging due to gas-price-to-oil-market prices (which were not tied to in the past as they are now), a war in the oil producing middle east, a natural disaster, and labor day I don’t think that Bush can take the credit. Petroleum company management is smarter than that (and smarter than W) I’m sure they figured it out on their own.

That’s all I got.

I understand what your saying jack, im here to talk this out and put ideas out there. I do know for a fact that theres huge oil reserves in our country in alot of western states and theres the people who own them that are paid huge sums each year to not take anything out of them. Theres nothing wrong with compensating these people eigther, they have to make a living too or sell thier oil. I listen to public radio which is sometimes called to the left in politics and from what i’ve heard from oil related topics on these shows we are indeed at a place where we’ve used alot of oil. If the wells in the united states which have oil taken from them but still have alot of oil in them and can now be reached why aren’t the oil companies doing that instead of buying oil from other countries, its obtainable at a cheaper price than what we were paying 4 months ago, thats from an oil engineer on a pbs program. I know that we could get our oil cheaper but im wondering why we aren’t and haven’t. That sounds like good business to me.

In all reality………………

It took us 100 years to figure out how to use this oil, to the level we are at.

Folks;
We are not in the “dark ages”.

I can almost assure you that in 100 years, probably 50 years, we won’t be using oil………….

Things mostly will be ran of hydrogen or nuclear power.

Lastly;
look back into history. We had this same crisis 2 other times. The first time was WWII. It wasn’t even our war. However gas was rationed out.
The other time was in the late 70s and early 80s. Gas was rationed out (actually, not rationed, but limited to amount a person could fill at the pump in the 70s). In th early 80s, gas was $1.20 a gal. People back then were making 1/3 the money, if not 1/4 the money they are making today.

In all reality, gas prices have actually caught up to the same inflation that everything else is.

Look at the late 70s in comparison to today.
can of pop: $0.25 per $1.00 today
truck: $10,000 per $40,000 today
House: $60,000 per $240,000 today
Union carpenter: $6/hour per $30 today.

Gas has just caught up with the trend today. Yep it sucks, but it just has finally caught up!

The price of gas ins’t going to break anybody today.

Not when the majority of people own a $1,000 computer
Spend $40 or $50 a month on internet service
Spend $50 a month on cell phone service
Spend $50 a month on bottled water/pop/junk food at the gas station.
Spend $100 a month going out to eat (whether it is McDonalds/Applebees/or high scale resturants)

Point is:
People don’t live consertively with their money today. GOOD GREIF!!!! Today I took my daughter to her first day of school. Holy crap, the girl is in 6th grade and it is a flippin FASHION SHOW!!!!!!!!!!! When I went to school, it was normal jeans, hightops, and some rock t-shirts…….I spent a crap load of money on her cloths this year, just to keep the kid “up with the Jones” (sorry if I offened any “Jones” on this site!!! )

“WE” have made life complicated and expensive today. Don’t blame the gas prices for bringing down the economy and community!!!!

LASTLY:
Don’t blame high oil prices for our high pump prices. You can blame the past 10 to 15 years of our government for not allowing refineries to be built or expanded to to “environmental impact”. It doesn’t matter if oil goes up or down, the price of gas is due to refineries not being able to refine fast enough for our consumption.

You da man, Gary. Very well said. I have to admit it gets old listening to Americans complain about anything financial/economical when we are so doggone rich to start with. Just think of all the things we have that we can do without–cell phones, alcohol, soda pop, satellite TV, home computers, clothes, more clothes, tobacco, and on it goes. If we cut out all the “stuff” that we don’t need, we could make up for the increase in gas prices and a whole lot more.

I think the gas prices listed in the exporting countries is right about cost to produce the gasoline. Anthing above that is profit and is cut up between politicians, and Texas middlemen. If the democrats were in office right now there would be an investigation. Bush would have been impeached for lying us into an unwinnable war. A draft dodger that doesn’t listen to his own generals.

Juggs, all those things that could be “cut out” of our daily lives are also industries that create jobs and support families. And you are right, thats what will happen, people will have to cut back on this or that and industries will suffer and jobs may be lost etc. Don’t you see the EFFECTS of high oil prices. Like I said before, Its more than one person. Sure, most of us can afford to fill and drive as much as we used to but we will also cut back in other areas to compensate. Its a trickle down effect.

Wiskerkev;

Dude,
Please get off the Bush bashing. It is meaningless, pointless, and empty dude. You are not getting any point accross when you just bash the Prez. Put out some truthfull info and you’ll make some ground.

Bud,
Do your homework on it. The problem today is a proven, known fact that refineries cannot produce enough gas. It doesn’t matter what the price of the barrell of oil is.

If you want to get nitty-gritty about it. The problem with the rifining of today’s gas is due to the environmental restrictions and the halting of further building of refineries by the Clinton administration.

That is fact.

The cure isn’t to lower oil barrel prices. The problem is that the refineries cannot produce enough gas fast enough, out of the oil, for today’s American demand.

As for cutting back of the “better things in life”……..Well, if that eliminates jobs, sobeit. Sounds harsh, but these “better things” that create jobs are skewing the economy, requiring more income to be demanded, thus requiring things to be higher cost.

The more you make, the more you spend, the more you spend, the more you have to make……….It is just a “circle of economy”……..

Just out of curiosity, if the real problem with gas prices is that we can’t refine enough oil into gasoline, how long has this been the case? If it’s been since the 80’s, than how come gas prices have just started really rising? The demand can’t have gone up that much. Some, yes. Double? Triple? I doubt that. So obviously, the price of a barrel of oil does have an impact upon the price of a gallon of gas. Let’s not pretend that it isn’t the case. Oil production does have an impact.
Clinton has been out of office since 2000. It’s 5 years later. What has the current administration done to help us refine more gas? I can only assume that we have countless refineries going up around the country.

Good point Steve!

There is now talk about putting up more refineries, but I don’t see any ground work happening yet.

Problem is, that putting up a refinery isn’t going to happen overnight. I personally know that Flint Hills has over 30,000 miles of pipe in their facility. I would assume that it would take years to build a new plant, plus you have to add in the rail system as well. I beleive there is talk of using some of the closed military bases for locations. These bases have the basic needs (proper electricity, rail systems, water treatments to be self contained.

But then you need to top it all off with all the regulations and “nobody” wanting a refinery in their backyard also hurts.

Today, it looks like Koch/Flint Hills is doing some expansion, but they appear to mostly be focusing on their Hydrogen sectors.

I’ll ask my brother about this, this weekend. He works for Flint Hills and has some good knowledge on where things are going.

I’ll report back on Monday!!!

Thanks Gary. I’m quite interested in what’s happening in this area. I know that all of this is inter-connected. That’s seems like a good use for the old bases. The populations surrounding those closures are going to need an economic shot in the arm.

Yep, the money these refineries produce for the worker/local community is absolutely HUGE. In Hampton, where I use to reside, we had many, many contractors from all over the country coming to work at the refinery. These guys made some SERIOUS money (from $5k to $8k a month).

Gary,

If the shoe fits. Eventually whomever is in charge is responsible for their watch.

whiskerkev:

You are clearly ill informed, joking, or insane.

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If the democrats were in office right now there would be an investigation.

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If the Dems had any shred of evedence they would be all over it. Come on, we are talking about a Party headed by Howard Dean for crying out loud!

-J.

I think if the oil countrys are sticking it to us, cut the aid we send them. Has the price of our exports gone up? I’m sure the farmers would love to see the price of the product they produce jump as much as oil prices.