Water, vapor barrier, and basement

Well I am full bore in the middle of gutting my basement and I just got the wainscoating removed and noticed some water damage on the rock. Also on the same wall but in the corner was still damp (even though it hasn’t rained in two weeks) I plain on framing the basement this weekend but was wondering if there is anything that could/should be done to help prevent problems in the future? I am guessing there is some water proof paint out there that might help, but will it work if the blocks are already painted?

Also while we are on the topic on water can I get your opionions on a vapor barrier. I have heard mixed feelings some say put it on against the blocks other say put it on after you frame and insulate, some say both, and some say none at all.

But before you answer I plan on putting mine on against the block, (unless people make some interesting arguements) and for the record the wall I remove the vapor barrier was put on after the frame and insulation? Is that why there was water damage???

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advanced

well i would look outside and make sure the water is draining away from the house and that if there is gutters that they are not plugged,and if there is gutters that drain chutes are on. as far as the vapor barrier goes i would put it on after the framing,but if you do decide to put it on first i would’nt put it on both sides because then you trap the moisture in the wall,but the main thing is to find where the water came from,leaking pipe?,condensation from some where but i would look outside first…

The vapor barrier goes to the warm side of the wall. It’s intention is to prevent moisture from the inside of the home from passing through the sheetrock into the wall cavity and condensing on the insulation. In a basement, this would be after the wall is insulated and before the sheetrock is hung. The vapor barrier you had was installed correctly. It would not have caused the wet conditions you described. As to the water, over 80% of water leakage into basements is caused by poor drainage of surface water. Be sure you don’t have your yard sloping toward the house. It should have a slope away from the house of at least 1″ in the first 6 feet. Be sure your downspouts extend at least 6′ away also. With the wet sheetrock in the basement, it would take a long time for it to dry, especially behind wainscoting.

Ihave been in the masonary trade for over 30 years and have worked on a lot of basements with water problems. The advice given about the grade around your house is very good. On probaly close to 80 per cent of houses that is the problem. I have no idea how old your house is or what kind of ground you are on. In some cases a heavy clay soil was used to back fill with and this can be a problem. If you have any question send me e mail and I will try to help you. Good luck.

Interesting guys. Thanks for the input. I am sure there is a ground issue that we will need to take care of. And i also remember last year the eves were running over due to them beingpluged . I will address those issues.

My main concern is still vapor barrier. I have my granfather and a step-father-in-law who both do construction and they suggested that it go along the concrete. I also have a couple of my friends who are in the contrustion biz and they suggested the same as above. I am just wondering why I have getting a difference in opionions. Was there an old way and a new way to do it? Or just like everything else to each there own? I think I am going to have to go against the family’s advise and do it like you and others have suggested as well. I just wont have them over until I get the rock hung

I appreciate your guys feedback and again just goes to show how great this site is.

If you still have a question about the barrier, go online and do a search on vapor barriers. It will all be explained there. It seems backwards, but it it the way it is supposed to go. I’m a home inspector, and vapor barriers in basements and crawl spaces are an important issue.

I know all the houses we work on have the plastic (vapor barrier) after it is insulated. I thought that was the building code and had to be done that way. Also, the land around your house is a heavy clay base. I have had to dig in that area a few times and hated it If you do not have standing water in your basement then you are not having a real bad drainage problem. Like said above, a little landscaping and keeping gutters in working order will cure the problem you do have.

Sounds like it is final then… Thanks again for all the help and Wats we will have to get fishing sometime soon. Hopefully there isn’t ice on the water before I am able to get out

Hey john, my brother runs a carpet cleaning and flood restoration business, he may be able to help you find out exactly where the water is comming from, the fix may be as simple as amwatson’s suggestions, but now is the time to find out for sure. PM if you’d like more info.

Vapor barrier in basements goes on the inside, and should look like the attached pic (be sure you get top-notch help when shop-vac’ing the place up, I know it made a big difference at my place).

In the South, I believe they typically put a vapor barrier on the outside of the insulation on the above-ground levels for the same reason – keeping the warm, moist outside air from generating condensation and mold in the inuslation. Perhaps that is what your other advisors are thinking of?

Forgot to mention – also might consider insulating the basement ceiling underneath the bedrooms. If you’re putting in a home theater downstairs and have teenagers or soon-to-be teenagers, you’ll probably learn to appreciate having a sound absorber in there.

Thanks guys – Confused again. Off to search the net

If I understand you correctly, you have a block basement. I’ve been working on flood damaged foundations for the last five years, and have encountered many block basements that have had their morter joints fail. So, what happens is the core of the blocks fill with water, and, since the blocks are porous, they slowly seep until all the water is gone, either back to the outside of the wall to the drain tile, or to the inside of the wall to the floor, insulation, sheet rock(you get the point). This can happen as far up as the exposed blocks on the top of your foundation, and they can be filled with a good driving rain. The easiest fix is to do a visual inspection on the outside of the outside block and look for cracked or missing morter joints. If you have them, I’d suggest getting some non shrink grout, knock out the failed morter, and tuck point the grout in. If that’s not the case, there may be failed joints sub-grade(common). There are a few fixes(none of them fun, some way more involved than others). Option 1- dig around entire foundation, one section at a time, clean inspect and fix any failed mortor joints, then re-apply a mastic waterproofer with plastic over top, Or, you can get a waterproof membrane and place on it. I’ve been using the membrane for a few years, and am really satisfied with it. I live in Northern MN, and we’ve been flooded twice in the last few years, and haven’t had any problems with any of the new basements we’ve installed this on, or any of the older ones we’ve retro’d this on. YOU MUST FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS OF THE PRODUCT, however. This sounds like a pretty involved project, but in reality, its not. rent a mini backhoe for a weekend($200-300 bucks max) The waterproofing will run you around 300 bucks for the membrane, half that for the roll on tar and plastic, and one or two of your closest suckers..er friends.
Option 2- you can get a water channeling system that you install along the inside perimeter of your wall and direct any and all water that leaks in you blocks to your sump basket. Basically, you drill holes in each core (depending on the style of block, you have 2 or 3 cores in each block. You can determine this by tapping on the block and listening for the number of hollow chambers. Essentially, if the center of the block sounds hollow, you have three cores, evenly spaced. If it sounds solid, two cores). Drill 3/8-1/2″ holes in each core, where the block meets the floor. You then install this channel on the perimeter around the bottom of the floor, and let it expel in your sump hole.
Option 3 (same concept, but not nearly as easy) You rent a cement saw, saw the floor around the perimeter of you basement out 12-16″, with a trench to your sump basket. Remove this portion of the floor. dig along the footings, install drain tile, cover with pea rock, and stub the drain tile into your sump. in the bottom blocks, again you drill holes, but this time put some sort of corragated material up against the holes, in a way that it covers the holes and bends over the footings and over the drain tile/pea rock. Dowel in 1/2″ rods approximately 18″ apart in the existing floor, and re-pour the trench. The benefit to this method is that it allows for you to finish the basement wall without having to build your stub wall over to accomidate the drain channel I described in the earlier procedure. Hope this wasn’t too confusing
One last tip- to figure out if this is the problem….drill one hole in the bottom block where you notice the moisture….if water comes out……..

John-In Gianni’s pic, that is the way the contractor’s in this area do the plastic. Stud the walls, do any of the electrical, then put up the vapor barrier. Make sure that the plastic is tight when you staple and does not have any slack. Also, when you get to the corners overlap about 3 feet.
On the water issue, bam_bam is right on the money with all the methods to cure the problem. I would think that before you stud the basement, you might want to make sure you get the water issue straightened out to prevent damage to the new drywall.

Good points guys. I am looking on the bright side here and it seems to be just one corner, so I think I will do something to take care of that corner. Also there has never bee “standing” water but I could see where some water has gotton, but none the less I would really hate to have to redo the rock so I will do a look over outside tonight when I get home. Thanks again guys!

I had the same questions when I built my basement. I was told to put the vapor barrier against the block wall, then the studs and insulation, and sheetrock. The idea being that the block wall will whick up moisture from the exterior ground and the plastic will prevent the wood studs from soaking up the dampness from the block wall.

Half way thru the project, I was told to put the plastic on behind the sheetrock and not on the block wall. Both parties of this information said they were right. Either way, I was confused.

Not wanting to undo what I already did, I left it; now, half my basement the plastic is against the block wall, the other half is behind the sheetrock. Eight years later, there still are no moisture problems in my basement.

This doesn’t help, but I was told 2 different things.

Johnl, i had the same problem with water getting into my basement and so did the neighbors. I went and bought some 4″ black draintile, y’s etc for my house and dug down far enough so that the amount of dirt i put over it was enough to hold moisture so the grass wouldn’t die, about 8″ I got an idea to also tile the neighbors yard because he said he occasionally had a wet basement too. He came home one days and i was almost done with his yard and asked what i was doing and told him drying up his basement for free. He thanked me and walked away smiling, it pays to have good neighbors. I figured because the ground slops twards my yard the water would run in my yard, and it did and the exrta flow of water in the tile would help keep the tile clear of debris and it did. Dried up both our basements and the cost was about $100 for both yards combined. If you have any fall to your yard, tile your yard, its cheap and i’d be willing to bet the moisture problems will be over. Heres something to remember, after the dirt around the house settles right next to your basement walls it ends up with a void right next to the wall where water after heavy rains can just follow down the walls and enter where it can. If you keep the water away from the walls as much as possible by tiling, it more than likely will dry it up for good. Running a short tile out into your yard isn’t good enough because water leaches it way back to basement walls. The neighbor on the other side of me did it, tiled up to the same exit tile and hers dried up too. We’ve had some real downpours and nobodys had water in thier basement since.

the draintiling the yard is a great idea…..but. Remember, in the spring and the fall, as ground temps sink to below freezing, any water in the drain tile freezes also. Now, you think, well if the ground freezes, then I shouldnt have to worry. Wrong. Your foundation seeps heat, keeping the ground thawed (roughly 2-4 feet) all the way around your house. What I’m getting at is that if you tile your yard, be sure to get the tile deep enough so that when it does come freeze up time, it won’t freeze immediately, and it’ll thaw before the snow melts in the spring. Whenever we tile a yard around here we put in a large basket or culvert and install a lift pump. We dig the tile in 2 feet, lay a bed of drain tile rock or pea rock, lay the tile(the kind with the sock on it) and lay more pea rock on top of it before back filling. The other reason you want to have at least two feet of dirt over your tile is so there is enough dirt to bridge the tile, so that if you drive a large lawn mower, vehicle, etc, over it it won’t get crushed

Boy you must be really confused now! I am! I’m a heating contractor in MN and I have been told that you want to vapor barrier both sides of the wall. Reason being that your trying to keep All moisture out of the walls where it can create mold and mildew in the insulation and sheekrock. But I’ll tell you what, I see it all three ways all the time!
I have heard of a new type of wall board that won’t ruin if it gets wet, can’t remember the name though.
First things first, fix the water problem!
Hope it helps!

One thing that I have noticed out here in the mid-west is that when building a foundation out of block they do not plaster and tar it. This would stop most water problems. We would apply plaster a half inch thick from footings to the top of the block wall. We would then sponge float the top section off just below grade to give it a nice finished look and then come back the next day and tar it up to the finished product. This method seals the block work and keeps your basement dry. Just my two cents worth.