Presidential Election.

  • jon_jordan
    St. Paul, Mn
    Posts: 10908
    August 31, 2004 at 6:17 pm #319598

    Thanks for the reminder Gianni. Most people dont even know that the United States is a Republic, not a Democracy….or the difference between the two!

    -J.

    skhartke
    Somerset, WI
    Posts: 1416
    August 31, 2004 at 6:29 pm #319602

    Krisko,
    The other day, I went to a bait store where they gave me a ‘LIBERAL’ scoop of crappie minnows. I guess after reading this thread, that I should have been upset about that. I had a guy cut me off not too long ago, and after I displayed my feelings about that, he pulled up along side of me at a stoplight, and called me a filthy liberal. When did the term liberal become a cuss word?

    TroyR
    Silver Lake MN
    Posts: 405
    August 31, 2004 at 6:51 pm #319607

    Is it November yet? I for one have never wanted November to come sooooo soon. I do have a question about the campaining (sp) Is there a way that we can get it to the point that they can only campaign for a limit of 2 weeks. For example begining the 2nd week of October, until Election day, they can campaign 24/7 for that 2 week period. No more or even better MUCH LESS. Why does this crap have to go on for a year ahead of time? As you can probably tell, I am not a very political person, I care about what Myself and my family care about, and that is how I will vote. There is no amount of campagining/whinning about the other guy that will EVER change that. Is it getting hot in here?

    carpking
    Janesville, WI.
    Posts: 859
    August 31, 2004 at 7:01 pm #319609

    Is it campaining (sp)or is it camplaining?

    Whiskerkev
    Madison
    Posts: 3835
    August 31, 2004 at 8:13 pm #319622

    I’ve been out for a while and I respect everyone’s views. Get out and vote. As a former soldier, I am horrified that we are spending American soldiers lives in a foreign war for no reason. We have already defeated the regime that was there. At what point will we know we have “won” to the point we could withdraw with honor? I fear we can look forward to a selective service draft shortly following the election. If Bush wins, He “will see no way to get around keeping America “safe” than to install a draft. If Kerry wins, he will say “I have no way to keep America safe because Bush got us into this” We are screwed no matter whom is in that office. The money that has been spent on Iraq could have given free health insurance to every man woman and child in America.

    lenny_jamison
    Bay City , WI
    Posts: 4001
    August 31, 2004 at 8:23 pm #319624

    Quote:

    Krisko,
    The other day, I went to a bait store where they gave me a ‘LIBERAL’ scoop of crappie minnows. I guess after reading this thread, that I should have been upset about that. I had a guy cut me off not too long ago, and after I displayed my feelings about that, he pulled up along side of me at a stoplight, and called me a filthy liberal. When did the term liberal become a cuss word?

    The Merraim-Webster dictionary defines the word LIBERAL as follows:
    1 a: of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal educaiton> b archaic: of or befitting a man of free birth.

    2 a: marked by generosity :OPENHANDED <a liberal giver> b: given or provided in a generous or openhanded way <a liberal meal> c:AMPLE, FULL

    3: obsolete: lacking moral restraint: LICENTIOUS

    4: not literal or strict: LOOSE <a liberal translation>

    5: BROAD-MINDED; especially: not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms

    6 a: of, favoring, or based on the principles of liberalism b capitalized: of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially: of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives.

    Doesn’t sound like a cuss word to me.

    Gator Hunter

    gary_wellman
    South Metro
    Posts: 6057
    August 31, 2004 at 8:23 pm #319625

    Well, with that said, look at the billions/trillions of dollars spent in Europe against Germany……….The US wouldn’t be in debt, if we would of never gone there…….. in 1942……

    We probably shouldn’t of gone to Iraq, just like we shouldn’t of gone to Somalia, Bosnia, Vietnam, Korea, Germany, Panama, Falkan Is……………We could of turned the cheek on any of the countries………IT wasn’t our problem that half of the countries listed above were committing genocide , while occupation in a couple of others were due to communism threatening our way of life……

    However, I will post this question………
    Why was it OK to Clinton to take us into Bosnia (WHICH WE ARE STILL THERE), but it is wrong to go into Iraq…….Both dictators were ousted, both dictators were committing genocide………..

    skhartke
    Somerset, WI
    Posts: 1416
    August 31, 2004 at 8:46 pm #319628

    Quote:

    We probably shouldn’t of gone to Iraq, just like we shouldn’t of gone to Somalia, Bosnia, Vietnam, Korea, Germany, Panama, Falkan Is



    When did we go to the Falkan Islands? Wasn’t that the Brits?

    Quote:

    However, I will post this question………

    Why was it OK to Clinton to take us into Bosnia (WHICH WE ARE STILL THERE), but it is wrong to go into Iraq…….Both dictators were ousted, both dictators were committing genocide………..



    We may still be there, but how many of our troops were killed there?

    skhartke
    Somerset, WI
    Posts: 1416
    August 31, 2004 at 8:50 pm #319629

    Quote:

    Doesn’t sound like a cuss word to me.

    Gator Hunter


    That’s my point! He called me a filthy liberal out of anger directed towards me. He would have no way of knowing my political leanings, one way or the other!

    gary_wellman
    South Metro
    Posts: 6057
    August 31, 2004 at 8:56 pm #319632

    Yes…….We had troops in the Falken Is………..Supporting the UK…………

    skhartke
    Somerset, WI
    Posts: 1416
    August 31, 2004 at 9:07 pm #319634

    I just did a google search, and could find nothing that says we did anything except agree to the sanctions that the UK put on Argentina.
    No big deal though! I was mostly just tweeking you anyway!

    gary_wellman
    South Metro
    Posts: 6057
    August 31, 2004 at 9:10 pm #319635

    it’s cool…………..I had an old sergeant who was attached to the Brits down there. We had a few attachements down there to support them, but not much…..

    Anyways, he shot a guy, took him captive, administered 1st aid for his bullet wound, interogated him to where his squad was, called in support to take the squad captive……….He got some medals for it!!!!!!!!! Go figure…….shoot someone, then save them, then get medals………….

    skhartke
    Somerset, WI
    Posts: 1416
    August 31, 2004 at 9:16 pm #319638

    That’s interesting! I learned something new today! At work even!
    Kind of reminds me of a death row convict getting sent to the hospital to recover from some illness/attack! Makes a bunch of sense!

    Gianni
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts: 2063
    August 31, 2004 at 9:22 pm #319640

    Quote:

    Thanks for the reminder Gianni.

    You apparently missed the post where it was explained that I got it all wrong.

    Apparently a L-I-B-E-R-A-L is not one who practices liberalism, but something else. Let’s see what my dictionary says about L-I-B-E-R-A-L:

    Quote:

    Liberal (n, lib’ u rawl):

    1. Political; a person who believes in total economic control by government, i.e. central planning, and total personal (social) freedom (mostly from accountability).

    There… fixed it.

    [edit to remove offensive material…. It is acceptable to discuss Liberalism so long as one does not touch on the real world implications or results; so noted — Gianni]

    skhartke
    Somerset, WI
    Posts: 1416
    August 31, 2004 at 9:24 pm #319641

    That is a little innappropriate. IMO.

    kooty
    Keymaster
    1 hour 15 mins to the Pond
    Posts: 18101
    September 1, 2004 at 3:40 am #319684

    Holy Cow!! I can tell ol’ Ollie don’t care for John boy much now does he. Can anyone confirm thes fact that Ollie is refering to about Kerry’s record?? If so, I’d love to read more.

    ptc
    Apple Valley/Isle, MN
    Posts: 614
    September 1, 2004 at 1:14 pm #319704

    Gianni where in the world did you find that definition? Merriam Webster’s is so different that one of you his horribly wrong. Theirs is:

    “Liberalism”
    Function: noun
    A political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.

    stillakid2
    Roberts, WI
    Posts: 4603
    September 1, 2004 at 2:44 pm #319717

    Moss Boss,

    Thanks for the questions. I understand the concerns over free exercise but here’s where I draw the line. Let’s say I’m a teacher and I want to begin my class day in prayer. The first thing I would do is tell my students what prayer is. They could pray to the Easter Bunny, Jack Nicholson, Allah, Jehovah, …….. the Buick in the family driveway. They can pray to whatever they choose. Take 60 seconds and have everyone stay in their seats, pray silently if they want, or silently read an overture of today’s class objectives. There’s no assembly, everyone can pray silently to the god of their choice, and everyone gets free exercise.

    When we talk about oppression by seperation or exclusion, we have to face the facts and know that this goes on without any religious presence. Kids that relate to physical contest band with other physical kids. Bookworms often get excluded and picked on because they’re “subpar” in the physical child’s discernment. This concern……. is about parenting. I for one, teach my children that if my God can accept me, it’s my duty to accept everyone else as well. My faith teaches this. I’d love to be in a room full of Buddhists, Hindu, Islam, Muslim, Jewish, whoever…….. and have us all exercise our own prayers. Even share with each other if it’s on our own time. I can include their concerns as part of my prayer to my God. The true freedom of Christianity is so misunderstood………. truthfully, by many “Christians”. But we are instructed and taught to be considerate of all peoples and to love them as they are. That doesn’t mean we agree or even condone, but we should treat them as we treat ourselves. 60 seconds of silent prayer shouldn’t place opposition to those who choose not to….. not if the heart is right and honestly, if proper parenting is taking place. Kids will naturally hate unless we teach the benefits of a disciplined love.

    Personally, I find anger very exhausting and favor to be exhilerating so it’s an easy choice. However, there are times in which it’s not so easy but that’s the test and I have to decide if I’m going to pass, fail, or ask for an extention……. you know….. “sleep on it”.

    I think we agree that government shouldn’t force any religion upon anyone. I don’t see how the 10 commandments, when placed on a courthouse wall, forces religion on anyone. Aren’t they good guidelines for living? Regardless of your faith? It’s easy to pass off “Remembering the Sabbath and keeping it holy” and “Honor thy father and mother” and “Thou shalt not lie”, but your “sabbath” could pertain to your god. Pick a day and celebrate in your faith. Why should we dishonor parents? We all make mistakes. Is that reason enough to toss this aside? Who thinks lying is a good thing? We’ve all suffered something by someone because of a lie. You can be an atheist and still recognize the benefits of exercising such values. How is that document offensive…… really? Do we condone murder? Theft? Adultery? The tearing down, in itself, is government oppression, allowed by a lobbying, anti-accepting belief. These unaccepting people are setting a standard and priority on self gratification. This is getting passed on to their offspring. And the dissention continues….. the very one we claim we’re trying to avoid.

    And as for government and the freedom issue I carry, I have to place some trust in the words spoken about them and some they speak themselves. But I know the comparison of Kerry’s professional history opposes these very values I place higher than any other. George may not carry all of them either, but he’s closer than Kerry is. The larger, greater, more involved any government becomes in the daily lives of it’s citizens, the lesser the freedoms of those people within it’s confines.

    This is why the responsibility is upon us as a people. We’re getting to the point of prohibiting exercise. Not just Christianity, but Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, Morman, etc.. Freewill is not freedom contributing because the practice of freewill is going to squash somebody. There must be a followed order in all things but we can’t seem to get a grip on this as a nation because somebody’s always crying over their hurt feelings. You know, we have adults in this country that have even authored books on why they think it’s right to have sex with children. Now, as long as they aren’t practicing this, we’re supposed to accept their belief.

    I think everyone reading can see how ridiculous that last sentence sounds. But this is today’s reality. Do you think I’m going to let them be around my kids? No way! Did you know that some of these people are the teachers in our classrooms? Jr. High, Sr. High, and colleges too. Our schools aren’t teaching sex values and morals, they’re passing out condoms! And yet, because someone wants to pray, we pass LAWS prohibiting this option in our classrooms but we’ll let a sex “nut” be their instructor! People who support groups that support this kind of “modernization” (repititious history……. actually!) will never get my vote. Economy is a big issue, but it doesn’t hold a candle to my concerns over my children’s future. I won’t follow somebody’s claim to fix our money woes over the sacrifice of who I may have just let into that classroom. Simply put, if we don’t stand for something, we’re gonna fall for anything.

    In many ways, the president’s hands are tied. He can’t make freedom worse or better all by himself, but when the bill reaches that desk, I want somebody who KNOWS the right thing to do is pass it for the preservation of established freedom or veto it for it’s ridiculous, destructive abilities.

    These choices aren’t easy and I should tip my hat to anyone willing to give it a crack. But I have to lean toward someone who has exercised more things in alignment with these values……. every time. Religion aside, history worldwide will undebatibly expose the heart of the human race and accurately predict the costs behind every choice. We think we’re so smart…… but so did those who came before us. Maybe they didn’t have the math and all the industry, but everyone throughout history recognizes lying, murder, stealing, hate, love, favor, discord, cheating, and the majority of all other human behavior characteristics. The documents written are all in observation to these natures, yet we think we’re above them…… somehow. “Evolved to a better people”, if you will. Well, there’s more war and skirmishes in the 20th century than any other in history. This, from a better, smarter, more highly evolved people? Think again. The fighting will continue because it’s historically guaranteed to.

    Methods are many, principles are few.
    Methods always change, principles never do.

    john-tucker
    Northwest Illinois
    Posts: 1251
    September 2, 2004 at 3:07 am #319808

    I recently heard a speech by our Illinois Republican candidate for Senate, which really stirred me. He has campaigned long and hard for the abolition of abortion, and he qualifies abortion as a another symptom of a much large problem our country faces. The demoralization of society as a whole. It began with a few small loses, then Roe v Wade came along and took it to a much higher level rapidly.

    In the ’40s, if someone had forcast the mass murder of our unborn children, he would have been hauled away as a nut! Now it is so common place that it does not even stir much discussion on this thread. A LIFE can be terminated simply because the mother does not wish to be inconvienced.This is tragic. How many more lives have been lost in this manner than have been lost in all the wars of the twentieth century, let alone our current war?

    In his speech, he then forcast the eventual acceptance of mercy killing in our society, and the possible genecide of our geriatric population. Most anyone would say “that will never happen here!”……just like our forefathers would have said about abortion. With the baby boomers reaching retirement, and longer life expectancies a reality, and with nursing homes becoming cost prohibitive for many, the writing is on the wall if we do not stem the tide of liberal “meism” and “weism”.

    I know many will think I am nuts for posting this, but many in our society are discarding, or already have discarded, our instinctive need to care for and nurture those who are weak. Namely our children and our elderly. God gave women an instinctual desire and ability to protect their children, born or not, at ALL cost. To die for them if necessary. God gave men the need to protect women, especially at their most vulnerable stages, as in pregnancy. If we can discard these exceptionally strong instincts, it is not a far stretch of the imagination to believe that a time will come when those who have “outlived their usefullness” will also be discarded. Are you ready to run that risk?

    Similar events, especially the demoralization of society, have happened before the downfall of every great civilization of the past.

    Will we learn in time, or will we continue to support those who feel that morality and convictions are only for private display at home, and are not an inate part of humanity. We will soon find out.

    Gianni
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts: 2063
    September 2, 2004 at 10:28 am #319817

    The Webster definition would draw essentially no distinction between Liberalism and Libertarianism. It is the portions of the description from American Governmnet, Essentials and Perspectives that I highlighted which set the liberal/progressive movement apart from “big-L” Libertarians.

    It is somewhat interesting that the two definitions appear to be in conflict wrt the importance the Progressives put on the autonomy of the individual. Curious to see which you think is correct.

    Is Liberalism:

    Quote:

    A political philosophy based on […] the autonomy of the individual …

    as Webster says, or do Liberals

    Quote:

    put natural rights as embodied in the Bill of Rights above […] individual autonomy

    as described by Englehardt/et all? I’m especially curious to see what self-described liberals think about this, or whether they’ve thought about this at all.

    hof
    Rochester, MN
    Posts: 2443
    September 2, 2004 at 11:14 am #319818

    Stillakid2 & Rooster,

    Great posts!

    Mike

    DaveB
    Inver Grove Heights MN
    Posts: 4465
    September 2, 2004 at 12:19 pm #319826

    Rooster-although I am not familiar w/ that speech, it sounds like Alan Keyes.

    ptc
    Apple Valley/Isle, MN
    Posts: 614
    September 2, 2004 at 2:33 pm #319840

    The two are not mutually exclusive. The ammendments in the bill of rights are there to guarantee the freedom of the individual.

    john-tucker
    Northwest Illinois
    Posts: 1251
    September 2, 2004 at 6:46 pm #319877

    DaveB,
    That’s the guy!

    Gianni
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts: 2063
    September 2, 2004 at 7:39 pm #319887

    Neither definition says that the two are mutually exclusive. Gianni did not say that the two were mutually exclusive. What I wanted to know is, when faced with a situation that forces precedence of one over the other, what do self-described liberals do?

    What do self-described, Michael Moore, “Fareinheit 911 is all true” liberals think about things like:

  • Seat-belt laws
  • Motocycle helmet laws
  • Smoking in restaurants/bars/taxicabs
  • Gun Control
  • Inheritance tax
  • Progressive taxation based on income

    et al?

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