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Just look at what Minnesota recently went through when Pawlenty cut taxes
Let’s get the facts straight. Pawlenty did not cut taxes in Minnesota, not even one cent! He simply refused to raise them 20% as the Dems proposed. He ended up negotiating a modest increase. (I believe it was 7%)
Here, I’ll take a shot:
1. The Rich, give me a dollar amount, what is rich?
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Anyone in this country making more than thirty-two thousand dollars a year has hit the American Jackpot. (Gephardt)
Anyone else want a shot at #2 and #3?
Oops, you’re right. It wasn’t Pawlenty’s tax cut that severely hurt Minnesota. It was Bush’s….
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………I just don’t like it when they not paying their share. I suppose we should get back to talking about fishing, or how to repair my washing machine…
Yo buddy…… not paying their fair share? The rich, in conjunction with big business pay 96% of our annual tax burden. 96%!
Think about this…… if you’re paying the taxes that you’re paying by working 7 months out of the year and that total massing of “working families” comes to 4% of the annual needs, then how do you feel about becoming wealthy? It about takes the wind out of your sails but this truth has been going on for decades and has nothing to do our current election issues. Neither can fix this without major government reform. This reform…….. won’t happen because we’ve become too divided as a nation. Family and community values have been targeted and torn down and replaced with individualism. Now that it’s matured, we all want America “my way”. Next challenge? Trying to get elected from a diversified nation……. how do you campaign anything let alone sell reform? Too radical and you won’t hold office so I know both guys are reaching for everything they can so they can pursue their interests for this nation once their in office. There’s 3 sides to every election….. Our side, Their side, and then The Truth.
I can’t understand how a nation gave our President the highest favor rating in U.S. history in the midst of tragedy but has already lost the reality of the long term vision. His track record has smears by those paid to do a job so he can call his shots, but the man who’s under all this fire for things brought on by someone else hasn’t changed since the day he stood in Yankee stadium and we cheered as a nation, amidst heartache, for having a President who would not buckle on our free world.
The truth is that we don’t know the truth. We “armchair QB” our president on how to get things done and we don’t know what he knows. All we know is what does or doesn’t feel good. Nowhere in history does war and loss and sacrifice proclaim pleasantry. When times got tough, who’d we cheer for? Now that things are rebounding, but not as fast as we’d prefer, who are we blaming?
If you cheered our President over 9/11, is it right to jeer him now because the way that event has changed our lives? And our homeland? It’s so easy to be critical in the comfort of our own homes, isn’t it? Or am I the only one guilty of this?
I was in another country this summer…….. we’ve got it pretty good but if we really want it better, we gotta start in our colleges. It’s how the liberal movement did it decades ago….. and it’s where we need to reclaim it. So many of our problems are because of our own issues as a people and we expect these guys to pull off the unlikely, if not the impossible.
That being said, and knowing what little I DO know about, I sincerely believe that the guy that best represents the comprehension of freedom’s responsibility and it’s costs is already in office. The rest really needs to play second fiddle until we get our freedom back.
How (in any way whatsoever) has Bush’s tax cut hurt MN????
I know my wife has found a way to take the extra $100/month or so in tax savings and pump 3 times that back into the MN economy.
I am still waiting for Kerry to explain how he intends to do anything that he has proposed. To date, he has run a campaign based on the least amount of substance that I can remember. Just saying that I am going to do exactly what Bush is doing “but do it smarter and better” just doesnt cut it for me. IMO, Kerry either doesnt have any idea how he is going to accomplish his “plan” or is afraid to point out the details because they will be proved as foolish as Hillary’s health care plan.
BTW-I was searching Kerry’s website for more information (he commonly says that everything you need to know about his “plans” are on his site). I must be missing a password or something because I just saw a lot of fluff.
I was going to post a rather long response here, but I firmly believe that it isn’t going to change either my ideas about our current administration, nor will it affect yours! And I’m cool with that. 
So, I think I’ll leave it at that we’ll agree to disagree. Of course since I’m one of those undecided folks, we might still agree at some point!!! 
…politics? Not even going to waste my breathe 
This is my reply to those who say that the rich don’t pay their fair share of taxes.
Who Pays the Federal Taxes:
Percentiles…Adjusted………..Percentage of
Ranked……..Gross…………..Federal Personal
by AGI……..Income………….Income Tax Paid
Top 1%……..$293,415………..36.18
Top 5%……..$120,846………..55.45
Top 10%…….$87,682…………66.45
Top 25%…….$52,965…………83.54
Top 50%…….$26,415…………96.00
Bottom 50%….<$26,415………..4.00
What this says is that the top 1% of wage earners, or those people that make more than $293k, are paying 36% of the taxes collected. Likewise down the line. Those making more than the median, $26k are paying 96% of the taxes.
I’m probably one of the few people who doesn’t support Bush who also doesn’t necessarily disagree with his tax ideas. My feeling is that if you make 100k per year, and I make 30k per year, you and I should pay taxes proportional to our respective incomes, you should not have to pay a larger percentage simply because you make more money. I do, however, disagree with the across the board tax cut that he gave. The issues that concern me the most are foreign policy, and conservation. I hesitate to say “environmental issues” on a hunting/fishing forum because for some reason, that seems to make people automaticly want to hang a PETA sign on my chest. Whoever stated that you won’t change someones mind is right, if that person has their mind made up, you won’t change it. My biggest problem is with people who decide it’s too much effort to get down to the polls and vote, then complain for the next 4 years about the elected officials. Our system could not work if we all agreed on a candidate, our ability to disagree, criticize, and question our officials is what makes our system strong, although I do believe it is seriously continuing to weaken because of the monopoly that the two party system has. My ideal situation would be to see a strong, sensible 3rd party candidate to put a little honesty back into American politics, but that is going to be a very difficult task, and Ralph Nader just isn’t the guy.
The people that really dissapoint me during elections like these are the ones who passionatly support Bush or Kerry on every single issue, no matter what they do. These types of people refuse to recognize dishonesty, flaws, or weakness in policy of their candidate, and will argue in defense of every decision their candidate makes, no matter how obviously wrong or dishonest.
Recognize the good and bad points of your candidates, neither one of them is 100% perfect, no matter who is looking through the microscope, then pick the one that you think is strongest on the issues that are most important to you, and please, go vote.
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Not perfectly done??? What war can be perfectly done?
People seem to forget that Sadaam had already broken several of the treaty agreements from the first War…He’s a tyrant, dictator, and threat. While he has well hidden all of his WMD, i don’t doubt one bit they aren’t somewhere…Sadaam didn’t grow a heart and conscience and get rid of them all…They’re out there somewhere….as is bin laden
Ahh, But there we have it. While Saddam was a tyrant and needed to go, he was not responsible for 9/11 nor did he possess WMDs as has become quite evident.
I’m not going to get into a political debate here but Bush is a moron…plain and simple. His going after saddam for all the wrong reasons has got us in a heap of trouble all over. The fool bit off more than he can chew.
I’m not endorsing Kerry by any means and I’m not foolish enough to vote by party.
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My feeling is that if you make 100k per year, and I make 30k per year, you and I should pay taxes proportional to our respective incomes,
Curious, but… why???
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I’m not going to get into a political debate here but Bush is a moron…plain and simple.
Yeah, I’m sure that his Yale transcript pales in comparison to yours.
Y’all want to jump in here and bash the Prez, then say you don’t want to participate in political discussion or start a flamewar. How’s this:
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[censored] Cheney, make that four words, [censored] Cheney, Ken Lay.
Very generous, yes yes.
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and actually started a telephone campaign in the south, calling voters and reminding them that McCain actually had a black baby, and that we don’t need that kind of person in the white house.
Link please. If it looks like a turd, and smells like s***, it probably is.
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the last time I checked, Bush admitted that evidence tying Iraq to the 9-11 attacks never existed,
Last time I checked, we did not invade Iraq because there was a tie to 9-11. We invaded Iraq because the nexus of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction was not a combination that we were willing to tolerate. I assume that your information about the lack of a link between 9-11 and Iraq comes from the September 11th report? Have you even read it, or are you “not relying on biased media types” again?
I’ve read it. It says that there were unquestionably clear links between Al Queda and Iraqi intelligence officials. To put that in laymans terms, it has something to do with the nexus of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. Don’t suppose you remember that several people suffered from an extremely limited antrax attack a few years back which had the entire congress of the US shut down and people afraid to open their mailboxes, huh?
All the crap about Iraq and 9-11 is inventive and creative, but a distraction nonetheless. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that someone who claimed in congressional testimony that he spoke for all Americans, who were, incidentally, all engaged in widespread war crimes, rape, torture, atrocity against civilians, well, that guy might attempt to re-frame the war in Iraq as well.
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how about Daddy getting junior into the “Air national guard” during Vietnam so he wouldn’t get sent over. What about his records? Have they come up with them yet? What do they say? Unless they say that he was a privelaged rich kid who’s daddy bought him out of having to go to Vietnam to fight, then they are lying about his service.
They did release his records from the Texas Air Guard. Apparently you haven’t read them either. No Sept 11th commission report, no guard records, no Kerry congressional transcript, have you read anything first-hand, or are you being spoon-fed by non-biased media types like Carville and Begala?
As far as ‘daddy buying his way out of service’ how’s about you check into which of the 4 major candidates has the lowest net worth (hint, his initials are GWB and the contest ain’t even close).
Pop quiz… who said this:
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They are not a free people, and we cannot fight communism all over the world, and I think we should have learned that lesson by now. (emphasis added)
And of course, we all remember this gem:
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Did I mention I don’t like tournaments either.
Keep you money to home. We don’t need it.
I know you will never again see a tournament here.Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to fish MY RIVER.
Just to get your goat: I’ve spent more time fishing YOUR RIVER this year than any year previously, and enjoyed every minute of it. 
Wow. Something I’d expect from a Bush supporter. Let’s throw in comments totally unrelated to the subject. Talk about sad and desperate.
Let’s not forget the Florida voting fraud.
If you don’t think the Bush Party was behind that fraud, I have some land I’ll sell ya. lol
I wouldn’t have a problem with a Republican in office. I have a problem with Bush in office.
Ray Ray Ray,
How was Bush behind voter fraud in florida? More like your Liberal media jumping the gun before all the votes had been counted.
Let’s hope you’re not trying to suggest that Bush didn’t win the election? Cause he did. Each time.
Hi Slop! 
I know die hard Republicans who don’t trust Bush.
Explain how someone like Kerry could even be in the running otherwise. lol
If Kerry IS elected it won’t be because he won, it will be because Bush lost…lost the trust of Americans.
This country is in sad shape if those two are the best we can come up with. Very sad.
Kerry?
“I voted for that bill before I voted against it”
“I believe life begins at conception”-yet abortion (hence murder according to his own words) is OK
“I talked to many foreign leaders who say they want a different president” later, oh no I really didnt
From website: middle class tax payers will get a tax cut if I am elected president. what is middle class? how much? who will pay for it? how much will they pay? That is a pretty major claim to make without any details.
Are we prepared to have a trail lawyer w/ 6 years experience in public office (who had no shot at reelection in his own state) a heartbeat away from the Oval office.
Under Nixons orders I spent Xmas of ’68 in Cambodia, Nixon wasnt Present until Jan of ’69 and he was nowhere near Cambodia.
I am one of those Republicans who isnt trilled with Bush. I think that the war in Iraq was the right thing to do, but I dont agree with some if his domestic policies. However, I would rather have someone in the White House that I know where he stands versus someone who is completely unpredictable and untrustworthy. He is running his election as a moderate, even though his 20 year voting record puts him far to the left of mainstream America. I believe that if he is elected, we will see a Kerry far different than the one campaigning right now.
And for those who believe that Bush wasnt fairly elected President in 2000, please produce any evidence that Gore had more votes in Florida. Countless recounts took place after the Supreme Court ordered FL to follow their owns laws put into place prior to the election, and EVERY ONE showed Bush winning. If you want to argue that since Gore had more vote nationwide, then that is fair. But then we need to change the election laws, not claim that Bush isnt legit. You cant tell a baseball team in the 9th inning that we arent counting the total score, but counting innings won instead.
I won’t argue that perhaps Bush is the lesser of 2 evils.
But to those sitting here touting Bush as a great president, all I can say is…PALEASE! SIT DOWN!
Being a former military man myself (60 gunner, 10th Mountain Div.), I also supported our troops and backed America in the war in Iraq even tho focus should’ve been on bin laden at the time. George needs to leave his personal agenda to home. He was itchin’ for a reason because of the attempt made on Sr.’s life. Bottom line.
Saddam posed no immediate threat to us. Bin Laden did. Let’s get our priorities straight George.
Saddam wasn’t going anywhere and he could’ve waited. Instead, precious time was wasted tracking down the real culprit for 9/11 and he eludes us to this day.
man o man……..Is this getting ugly!!!
First off…….we are all here because of fishing……….so easy on each other guys………huh? easy………
I am not a big Bush fan. However, as many others have put it, I feel he is a better candidate than Kerry. However, when you look at the whole picture…………In the past 4 decades, we have only had maybe 3 good presidents and 2 is pushing it…………Kennedy, Reagan, and I will give Clinton for getting some things accomplished while he was in office…….but that is it. All other presidents and candidates have been weak…….
I’m voting not for party but for the agendas that each party represent.
Therefore, I stand in:
1: what is mine is mine……..not yours…….Go earn your own and don’t be a leech……..communism doesn’t work and Europe is now proving socialism doesn’t work…….
2: Stop killing babies…….
3: Let the “free market” (large companies) feed America through good creative prosperous business. Did everyone forget about “American Ingenuity”?
4: Have the proper military to defend us.
5: Get the union out of our schools and let the schools do what they were suppose to do………teach………and if they can’t do it……..get out……….
6: I don’t need money going to diversity training in school, yet have the school tell me there isn’t enough money for them to buy a math book, so I have to buy it out of my own pocket……..
Honestly, I think Kerry is a very intelligent person. However, I personally beleive that special interest groups have deterred what the party stands on. The same thing happened with Gore. Clinton didn’t let the special interest groups influence him and much as he did stay focused on the US financial situation……..
As for the war in Iraq…….If Saddam didn’t harbor terrorist, then why was there terrorist camps in Iraq and why have we captured terrorist in Iraq???? This war is about terrorism and peace in the Mid-East. If you think this war is going to stop in Iraq, I have news for you……….We will be in Syria or Iran soon……..
Let me give you an open, honest to God response to all of this.
I used to be in the military. In 97, we went to terrorism training classes to be educated on our new threat………terrorism. It was our new enemy……….ALTHOUGH THE AVERAGE CITIZEN OUT THERE DIDN’T KNOW THAT…….INCLUDING YOU………So take me serious on this……
In 98, I was vacainated for Anthrax, because a new threat was out there from the terrorist that they were going to use Anthrax against us. It was a whole new awakening………….The threat was becoming more real……….Again, THE CITIZEN DIDN’T KNOW THIS. Most of the soldiers in my unit didn’t comprehend the threat or understand the level of severity of this threat. The reason why we were vacinated, was soley due to the fact that there wasn’t enough vacination to go around for all citizens of the US.
That hit me home harder than anything before……..Why………..Because I was vacinated for Anthrax, because of terrorist threats against this nation, that nobody knew about, other than priority military and higher government officials.
Why did it open my eyes so bad………Because our threat was made clear it would happen on home grounds, not overseas………..AND I WAS VACINATED, BUT MY 5 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER WAS NOT……….AND SHE WOULDN’T BE, BECAUSE THERE WASN’T ENOUGH TO GO AROUND………….IF IT HAPPENED, SHE WOULD DIE, AND I WOULD LIVE……….Sleep on that for a few days, actually a few months………….
So, are we safer with the war Bush is waging, I think so………………..
Why, because I feel we have a leader who has step up to the plate and taken control of the situation. This was coming for many years and it was happening during the Clinton years………….(WTC, Oklahoma, Saudi embassy, Port of Yemen) Then, we get a massive strike against the WTC, and Bush steps up to the plate with one basic agenda (ELIMINATE THE TERRORIST).
So, today I sleep better, (I’m out of the military completely now………finally got my discharge papers stating my service to my country is complete and honorable) I cannot be called back……….and I’m happy about it, because of my daughter……..But I did my time………..
Today, I feel we have a leader who has pushed this threat into the laps of the terrorist, instead of US soil and embassys………
Now, do you still think that Bush has a personal vendetta for war?????
So far this has been a pretty civil political debate, let keep it that way. I can’t stand to see these threads turn into a name calling, figer-pointing session.
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So far this has been a pretty civil political debate, let keep it that way. I can’t stand to see these threads turn into a name calling, figer-pointing session.
I have an idea. Lets have the powers that be delete this forum. I am starting to get the dry heaves.
I’m with Scott…… I’ve seen things a lot worse than this and while it’s a heated, passionate topic, look at what a person can learn here. Instead of remaining shelled up in our own conceptions, we get the input of others opinions AND facts. Not everyone agrees with me, and I’ll argue some, but I know I can still learn something from those who disagree.
This is a fishing site but IDA has on many occassions reached out and became so much more than that! We are like a family, a community, diverse but bonded through our commoness. One day, Gianni can agree with me and the next day he’s asking me “what gives?”. But I learn from him. I just learned something from Gary! I often learn something from Jon J. I mention these 3 only because we’ve all likely read some of their posts but I use them to represent everyone. We’re together in this topic but we’re not always of the same opinion. This doesn’t change the way I feel about the people on this site. If it did, I’d have to go back to the books and figure out where I’m falling short. I can’t expect people to relate to me so it’s a personal growth step to learn enough about myself that I can become relatible to them.
If we delete this thread, it will be the beginning of a censorship that has already cancered other sites.
I’m not saying that we should have a forum for this stuff, but we’re people. We’re Americans. We need to talk about this stuff. We need to learn from the knowledge of others and we need to teach from the knowledge we possess. Our very future as a common nation depends on this. What better place to learn how to get along with others than on a passionate topic? That is, if you come into it with the right attitude. I only know what I know, and what I feel is subject for change and debate. But I don’t know what I don’t know and that’s why a post like Gary’s needs to have a place in which it can be shared……. and why hot topics should be allowed, as long as it doesn’t become the focus of why we’re here. We are here because we fish. But we are more than fishermen, are we not?
To all……. we’re in this together whether we agree a little or we agree a lot. But we are here to learn, to teach, and to share, each one, in and of ourselves.
God bless America. God bless IDA. And may God bless you for reading this to the end. 
Opinions are like a-holes….everyone has one, including me! So I will toss my two cents worth in here too! Was Saddam an immediate threat? Define immediacy! For many years Al Quaida wasnt considered an immediate threat either and look what happened. Neither of these situations were caused or enhanced by the Bush administration, Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan or however far back you would like to go!
So Gore may or may not have won the popular vote. Im guessing this isnt the first time that has happened in a presidential election, and I am sure it wont be the last either!
Everyone of us; thanks to freedom, is allowed to vote for whomever they think is the right person for the job. As long as it is an informed decision based on fact, then you are right. When you lead with your emotions and anger and hearsay, you are wrong! When I vote, I vote for who I think is going to keep me free, keep me safe and keep me able to do the things I love to do, fish, work, be healthy and enjoy my family! Lets all be thankful for our freedom hey! Make an informed decision and vote for who you think is best!
Great post Paul! 
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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Wow. Something I’d expect from a Bush supporter. Let’s throw in comments totally unrelated to the subject.
One unrelated comment, a quote from you.
The rest of it:
1. Questioned why an unfair tax policy should be acceptable.
2. Demonstrated that claims of Bush’s stupidity are baseless.
3. Questioned the substance behind the attacks on the Prez.
4. Requested further information on accusations of criminal activity by two presidents.
5. Excerpted Kerry’s congressional testimony in order to demonstrate his foreign policy vision (read: French surrender-monkeys).
You refuse to address any of it in favor of engaging in ad-hominem against me.
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You refuse to address any of it in favor of engaging in ad-hominem against me.
Ok, call me a moron, and idiot, whatever you want, but I have to ask. What is the he!! does ad-hominem mean?
Translated from Latin to English, “Ad Hominem” means “against the man” or “against the person.”
But who know what the heck Gianni is talking about ? 
With the way society is today, no matter who is in office the people will find fault…when was the last time you herd a group of people say “Man we really have a great thing going here with this Prez” ? I didn’t think so…And how much do you really think the prez has to do with the main info on his decisions…he is only as good as his office is…if the people that are advising the prez are full of beans than so is the prez…
I’m still for world peace, if we all were the same …oh what a dull word this would be..
Later all !!
The fish are calling my name 
I won’t hold it against you Gianni.
I think what some of you fail to see is the big picture and what this war in Iraq has really done by going in alone for some borderline false pretenses. It’s given the entire muslim world a cause to band together. The terrorists were not operating in Iraq before. In fact, Saddam pretty much disregarded any attempt by bin laden to join forces against the US. He wanted nothing to do with that lunatic and looked at him as a peon. As it stands now, Iraq is a free for all for anyone wishing to wage war with us.
I’m not saying Saddam didn’t need to go. Fact is, it should’ve been finished the first time around. But going in when we did under the guise of terrorism and Saddam posing an immediate threat has done more harm than good in the big picture and has made us look like fools to a whole lot of people.
Saddam was toying with us and being defiant. Nothing more. Yes he was torturing and killing his own people. But he posed NO THREAT to us. He wasn’t that stupid. His wounds from last time were still too fresh. He knew full well he would be finished off if he waged war against us. He wasn’t a total fool.
Face it, George screwed up big time and the polls show a huge drop in confidence with the American people. My guess is he will narrowly win which isn’t saying much considering the alternative.
There are two very prominent reasons I will VERY seldom vote democrat. First, and least important, is the gun control issue. I want to keep my guns and very few dems. agree I should be able to without at least jumping through hoops for them, and/or spending lots of cash to keep them.
Second, and most important, is the blanket support the Dems. give to killing our unborn young. I have a severely handicapped daughter, who would surely have been “terminated” by a large portion of couples, had they known ahead of time what her prognosis would be. She, along with her sister, are the light of my life, and I would have been so much less blessed without her. It is exceptionally trying at times to deal with all the difficulty she encounters, and we encounter due to her limitations, but I have learned more and gained more from her than any other person on this planet. I see her beaming face and all my troubles melt away! Take a look at her smiling face and tell me she should not have been allowed to grace this earth!
When the democratic party changes their stance on abortion, I will re-evaluate. Not until!
Rooster, thanks for sharing. I know so many people who are in the same boat (sorry, couldn’t resist a fishing ref in there) and I don’t know one who carries regret. My own little one has an eye disorder, but he and his big sis are doin’ just fine.
Ray, thanks for the considerably measured response. I think you’re probably right in that prior to the Afghanistan invasion and the second Iraq war, no coalition between muslim secularists such as SoDamned Insane and religious radicals such as Bin Laden or the Iranian ayatollahs would have been possible. That may be closer now, but on the other hand the Egyptians, Jordanians and the western arab countries have essentially opened up somewhat on several fronts. A suggestion has even been floated that the Arab League drop the destruction of Israel as one of their primary platform planks.
I think the key now will be to stay ‘on the ground’ and keep putting out these small fires in Iraq before any such alliance can begin to gel. On that front, Kerry sounds a lot like Bush, but keeps floating the ambiguous, “but I’ll involve our allies.” The thing is that there is no solid support for this on the part of any of our allies that aren’t already there. The Italians have troops on the ground, the British are shouldering a lot of the load, and our far Eastern allies have sent peacekeeping troops in order to aid in the policing efforts. That leaves out the Germans and the French (surrender-monkeys, sorry, I love that), who were essentially neck-deep in financial ties with the deposed Hussein regime and will never support the US action there.
In short, our allies are not exactly knocking down the door in order to help us out here, and there is nothing concrete coming from the Kerry/Edwards camp on how they’re going to involve them. If there were any sort of detail to the plan, even a one page outline, I would give it due consideration. Until then it’s just a 10-second sound bite for the news.
I had also genuinely never heard of the McCain defamation before, and I try to keep pretty well abreast of what’s going on when work doesn’t have me swamped. If you have more information on it, or an information source, I would appreciate it. Groups who do such things do a disservice to both sides.
You would be hard pressed to find an instance of Gianni criticizing Kerry’s war record, but his testimony before congress as a lead member of Vets Against the War should be (and I think is) fair game. It’s not hard to see why other vets would be upset with him.
Not voting for Bush is a vote for Kerry. When I think about Kerry I see images of Jane Fonda on an enemy tank. Nam was not a nice place to be, but you don’t come back after only 4 1/2 months and support the enemy (Jane Fonda) as Kerry did.
MY 2 Cents
JIM
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