Endangered Species

I KNOW THIS HASN’T MUCH TO DO WITH FISHING BUT YET IT DOES. WE HAVE ENDANGERED SPECIES IN OUR WORK FORCE CALLED THE SKILLED TRADESMAN. I RECIEVED NOTICE THAT THE MACHINE SHOP PROGRAM IN AUSTIN IS TAKING NO NEW STUDENTS THIS YEAR AND THIS WILL BE THE LAST YEAR THE PROGRAM RUNS. THIS REALLY STRIKES A CHORD WITH ME AS I STARTED MY CAREER IN THE AUSTIN PROGRAM.

I HAVE WORKED FOR AKKERMAN INC. FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS NOW ALL AS A MACHINIST OR MACHINIST SUPERVISOR. WE CURRENTLY EMPLOY 6 MACHINISTS THAT WERE TRAINED IN MACHINE SHOP PROGRAMS WITHIN 100 MILES OF THIS AREA. WE ALSO HAVE 4 MORE APPRENTICES WORKING UNDER THESE VERY SKILLED PEOPLE. SO BY SHUTTING DOWN THESE PROGRAMS WE ARE SLOWLY CHOKING OFF OUR SUPPLY OF SKILLED MACHINSTS. INDUSTRY HAS RECOGNIZED THIS PROBLEM BUT SO FAR HASN’T BEEN ABLE TO ORGANIZE ITSELF TO THE POINT OF BEING HEARD BY CONGRESS OR THE LOCAL EDUCATION BOARDS.

NOW AS HOW THIS EFFECTS FISHERMAN IS MACHINSTS MAKE THE TOOLING THAT MAKES THE TRUCKS THAT ARE TOWING THESE RIGS OF OURS. MACHINSTS ARE MACHINING THE PRECISE PARTS THAT IS GIVING US THE FINE RUNNING MOTORS WE ARE RUNNING ON OUR BOATS. LOOK AT A PLANE IT COULDN’T FLY WITHOUT THE PARTS A MACHINIST MAKES. WHAT KINDA FISHING REELS WOULD WE HAVE WITHOUT MACHINSTS. WITHOUT MACHINSTS WE WOULD BE HUNTING STILL WITH THE BOW AND ARROW.

THIS PROBLEM IS HUGE AND IT IS ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE IF WE DON’T GET STARTED GETTING THESE KIDS INTERESTED IN THE TRADES. WAKE THESE SCHOOLS UP AS TO THE IMPORTANCE OF THE SKILLED TRADES AND BEGIN OFFERING IT AGAIN IN HIGH SCHOOLS.

SO IF YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO TALK TO SOME ONE WHO CAN INFLUENCE A KID TO GO INTO A TRADE OR AN EDUCATOR TO TELL HIM THAT LIFE IS MORE THAN A COMPUTOR AND A CD.

AMERICA NEEDS TO BECOME HANDS ON AGAIN!!! THANKS FOR LETTTING ME VENT ALITTLE.

GUNDY

I hear where you are coming from. Out of my huge class, 9 guys, 7 of us went to Tech/Trade school.

Do you think the job market is flooded and they can’t find work? Is some/most of the work being sent overseas for next to nothing??

What’s your opinion?

How bout I play a little devil’s advocate;

Do you shop at Walmart?
When you buy a boat do you try to talk them down?
Do you ever clip coupons for the grocery store?

What does this have to do with Machinists?

Everything! World economies strive to be more efficient, meaning they are always looking for the lowest price on goods and services.

Are you any different? Why should companies pay more for your machined part, when they can get the exact same of equal quality for half as much from some foriegn country.

If the U.S. economy was restricted, and we didn’t allow any imports, can you imagine how expensive everything would be.

Don’t get me wrong, my old man has been working in a Union shop for the last 38 years of his life, I know the value of the American worker. I also hate that foriegn labor puts so much pressure on our economy. The fact remains, it exists, and it’s everywhere. Maybe guys shouldn’t make $35/hour to machine parts, if the work can actually be done just as well for $2/hour in China.

I would guess that for most guys on this site, chasing the American Dream is what gets them up in the morning. And considering many industries have come and gone in the U.S., and many people have had to move on to new jobs/careers, as many people before us have had to do.

Again this was just the Devil talking.

Stradic10……. you’re the devil?

Laborers in general are getting hard to find. The American way right now has shifted to other technologies. When the profits go up, the workforce is present, and the laborers are now foreigners, the incentive is a way of life. Computers and software or business management are largely where our kids are interested and often where the guidance counselors are pushing them. They have to think “long term” and there’s no security in industry anymore. Jobs are dwindling and it’s not giving the future other fields can offer.

Carpenters….. are getting older and have been feeling a crunch for years by the absence of new apprentices. This is now the information age and the profitability comes from consumerism. Highest profit goes to the lowest overhead.

We as Americans are pretty spoiled and we want to stay spoiled but these economic cycles all rise and fall. We won’t be “kings” forever. If you really want to revive the industrial age, we’re going to have to re-examine our priorities and ask what we really want out of life.

Overseas, we have people cramming entire family generations into a 1 room hut, no mode of transportation, and the real driving force of daily activity is hunger. They’re more than eager to do our jobs for less.

Did you know that if you have a roof over your head and reliable transportation in your ownership, that you’re among the 8% most wealthy in the whole world??? They want more of what we have and we don’t want to go backwards. So, we use them and offer them opportunity in their country so we can shift our way of life and preserve our “spoiled” environment.

There’s SOOOOOO much that ties in with this but I’m going to save that for another day. For now, I just have a hard time feeling sorry for all of us when we already have so much. We’ve created the mess we’re in and blaming other things as the problem. We’re an economy based on consumerism. Let that sink in because it’s the really the core of what we’re talking about.

And don’t misunderstand me, I don’t like seeing people without jobs. I’m just saying there’s ways to deal with this and those who cling to yesterday will find themselves left behind until the new age cycles again.

WATERFOWLER,

A LOT OF THE SKILLED JOBS WE ARE LOSING OVER SEAS IS BECAUSE WE ARE OVERPRICED HERE. THE REASON BEING IS OVER SEAS THEIR GOVERMENTS SUBSIDIZE THEIR TRAINING PROGRAMS. THE YOUNG PEOPLE GET TRAINED FOR NO COST TO THEM SELVES.

WHEN I FIRST WENT TO VO/TECH ALL I HAD TO PAY FOR WAS BOOKS AND $25 PER QUARTER FOR MATERIAL I BURNED UP. MY BOY JUST COMPLETED THE 2 YEAR PROGRAM IN AUSTIN AND IT COST HIM AROUND $6000. WE NEED TO TRAIN OUR PEOPLE HERE WITH MUCH LOWER COSTS. THE JOBS ARE OUT THERE WE JUST HAVE TO TRAIN MORE PEOPLE FOR THE FUTURE.

WHAT HAPPENS AND WE GET INTO A REAL JANGLE AND CAN NOT COUNT ON FORIEGN HELP TO BUILD EVERYTHING WE NEED. LOOK AT CHINA AND HOW MUCH STUFF COMES FROM CHINA. THEY ARE WELL ONE THEIR WAY TO BECOMING A WORLD INDUSTRIAL POWER. WHAT HAPPENS IF WE HAVE TO GO TOE TO TOE WITH THOSE GUYS. THEY HAVE THEIR TRAINING PROGRAMS ALL IN PLACE AND WE ARE SITTING HERE WITH NOTHING GOING ON THE MANUFACTURING SECTOR.
SAME PICTURE WAS PAINTED DURING WW2.

THERE ARE SOME PRETTY SHOOK UP PEOPLE IN HI-UP PLACES ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS AND THEY ARE FALLING ON DEAF EARS. AMERICA IS THE PLACE TO BE! WITH SOME COMMON SENSE AND HARD WORK WE CAN SHINE LIKE WE HAVE NEVER SHINED!!

GUNDY

Wow Heavy topic. I am afraid if we cease to make things in this country that we will go the way of the roman empire. Nothing is more impressive than a skilled tradesman making something from a bit of nothing. We learned this lesson the hard way in World War II. I buy American whenever I can.

Do you guys remember nothing about Germany in the 20’s?
The US in the 30’s?
If you export the manufacturing you export your ability to produce tangible goods.
You take away the ability to produce tangible goods and you take away the long term security of having product with value. A brick still has value no matter the economy. Information however can swing as quickly as it came. Take for instance the millions of jobs that have been exported. We have an elitist attitude that “it will never happen here” or “I am going to get mine” and we pay no attention to our history. We make decisions to “fill my pockets today” with malice to the future. We sell the jobs our children will one day need.
The big picture is much more than just being happy today. Ask any of our seniors and they will tell you story after story about how easy it is and even echo there concern for our inability to help ourselves. Once we have exported our last job, our freedom, independence, creativity, knowledge and have all the money, do you think we will still be able to afford to be Americans? It is indeed a question I do not want to answer. I see everyday the attitudes of Americans that have been swayed by the media, propaganda, and a discernable sway towards ones self. It used to be God , work, and family in that order. Today it seems to be Me, Me, Me.
If nothing else I hope I challenged todays decisions.
Jc

Good points. It seems America is getting more like royalty by sitting back and letting “others” do everything for them.
They do the work and we reap the benefits. The good life. The easy life. Sooner or later “others” will decide they don’t feel like supporting our lifestyle anymore and then we will be in trouble.

Well there is no doubt about the good life in America. You guys are experiencing that every weekend on the St.Croix or Pepin when those big cruisers come buy. But for every good lifer there is many more who are not leading the good life.

I would like to see industrial arts brought back in all schools. Lets tweak these young minds early. Owatonna hosted a battle bots competion this spring and it was a rousing sucess. How many skilled kids are going to come out of something like that? That was absolutly a great way to show how industry and schools can cooperate. America is just wasting a lot of talent by not educating these people who want to become skilled and make a better life for them selves. It doesn’t take long to weed out the doers and don’ters.

Sadly more and more manufacturing job are going overseas, I was at IBM for 8 years and laid off last April. They keep selling off bits and pieces of the company, more & more of the manufacturing is going over to Ireland. When you call the help desk you get someone in India, it is only a matter of time before IBM will be out of the manufacturing business and will be a service only company. So to answer your question Jeremy no I am afraid that these huge companies do not remember or they just plain do not care as long as they are lining there pockets the hell with everyone else!

Quote:

---

Do you guys remember nothing about Germany in the 20’s?
The US in the 30’s?

---

Im currently in my 2nd year out of highschool, attending a state university and really dont like what my future will turn out to be. Most kids i know graduating with 4 year degrees arent getting jobs, let alone ones worth the debt taken from an education in this country.

The idea of carpenter really intrigues me… Working for a corporation where job security doesnt depend on demand for my work, but whether they can pay someone less than me to do my simple yet “college degree requiring” job makes me uncomfortable.

Can anyone write out a simple pro/con post for me, comparing a corporate step on the ladder job vs. a skill based job (privately owned) im already 2 years into university debt but i need to take my future in my own hands now and not follow what everyone else is doing.

I don’t know if I can write “your” pros and cons list. Only you have all the facts about you, but I’ll put some things out here and maybe it’ll help you decide.

Pro’s – Corporate: Benefits! Given the right company, there’s numerous provisions that factor in as “pay”. Many are also adopting “career pathing” (IKEA, Allianz,…) where they can sift up the “doers” and create a path within the company that leads to your loyalty and desired position, ultimately. Further education, if necessary, is often reimbursed, paid time off, sick leave, 401k or similar retirement program, disability, life insurance, and maybe even some incentive bonuses.

Cons – Corporate:

You’re going to ask “how high?” when the company says “jump”. He who wants it most, gets it. Now, most corporations have been doting employee empowerment and team environment for a couple of decades now, or thereabouts, and this concept of creating competition for selection opposes the true philosophy. Trust me, your boss, who’s sitting in the chair he wants (if this applies), is not going to say, “Good work. I’m going to leave and you can have my spot.” So, you’ll have to pursue this on your own motivation and hope a peer position opens up. Even then, this person is not going to want you passing them up. It’s a corporate studied and documented given in employee behavior studies. Once you achieve your desired position, there will always be others in the hunt for your spot and by the career pathing philosophy, if you’re not aspiring for something higher yet, you’re not following the company culture. It’s a great theory, but ultimately temporary according to available resources.

By that, study up on the Dept. of Labor’s 45 year graph. It’ll show why you top out, for the most part, in your 30’s and kind of “plane” from there. This graph shows why an aging employee carries less value to the corporation. Younger people with less are willing to do more, for less, because they’re trying to get started. No fault of theirs and they shouldn’t feel guilty about it. They’ve come of age and deserve to start a life too. So, in reality, the government is very aware of this also and only shares the information for the purpose of benefitting those who research. It gives us a chance to plan work and work a plan.

Carpenter: Pro’s: Independent. You decide what part of the industry you want to do and can self employ your services. You get to keep more of the profiting dollar because people will pay more for quality work and you’ll only bid a job as it works within your margins. This is adjustable as economic opportunities or conditions change. Biggest thing though, you keep more money.

Cons:

If physical labor isn’t up your alley, this may not be for you. As you age, you’ll want to supervise more than do the actual labor. While you can apprentice the young, for a profit, they will typically become your competition as well. You need to supply all your own benefits and know how to run your own business, working your own books. You will work longer hours because of timelines needing to be met and complications always arise. This increases in the corporate world too as you move up the ladder. You’ll also need to know good finances as you are responsible for setting up your own retirement plans. Because you’ve got so much on that plate, expect to be busy…… alot. And there’s no paid time off in self-employment. No work performed, no income.

As you research this more yourself, more things will become quickly evident but let me run this past you.

Picking something you really like to do and making a life out of it is very smart in terms of long term contentment. It won’t feel like work if you love what you do. Considering this, you may also want to find someone who is doing, or has done, what you want AND HAS WHAT YOU WANT OUT OF LIFE. This person should be befriended and become your personal mentor. Someone else’s experience is the fastest teacher if you’re willing to be a “student” to a successful path of applied knowledge and chronology of execution.

One of the best books you could ever read on this whole thing is “CashFlow Quadrant” – by Robert Kiyosaki. It is by far the best written resource for someone wanting to choose their own path. In theory, he’s got all the success anyone should ever want, so his knowledge is worthy of consideration. In that book, you’ll find much of what I’ve stated here and a boat load more. Go online or to a local bookstore. Their finance section should have Kiyosaki books. The only one you need for your current dilemma is the one I mentioned. The rest is useful after you’ve made a choice. And no……. I’m in no way affiliated to his enterprises… I just know of hundreds of people that have benefitted through his writings and I’m just here to offer help.

If you have any questions or would like some more resource information, feel free to send me a private message (click on “Stillakid2” and select “Send a PM”) and I’ll share anything I’m able to.

Guys……… I couldn’t agree more about paying attention to history. Like I was trying to say earlier, I don’t spiritually support what’s going on but it’s what IS going on. Nothing makes me happier than to feel I’m doing something to help a fellow human being but I too have to look out for me in this individualized world. I’m not embracing what is taking place, but I have to use the knowledge of it’s presence and course to look out for my futures as well.

I do struggle in feeling sorry for those who choose “blissful ignorance” (which doesn’t point to anyone commenting on the subject here) because they’re going to be in for some tough times and that pains me. I hate to see people suffer. I REALLY DO! But in this life, there will be suffering…… for all of us, to some degree, in some manner. We can only do as well as we learn how to do, and that applies to all things.

Peace Out.

This is way too deep.

WOW this is a fishing page.

See the link of the real endangered species.

http://www.toilette-humor.com/cartoon.html

I needed a little humor this morning, Also on the carpenter job River, I have a friend who is one, and you might want to think about working for some one, he tried to make it a go alone and couldn’t find enough work to keep going. But now he is working for someone else and keeping very busy now.

At my high school, shop classes are very popular, and I think we will git alot of skilled workers out of high schools these days.

Allright, time for the resident radical… so much to think about here.

Quote:

---

[stillakid] Stradic10……. you’re the devil?

---

He is not… That’s my role here, and I won’t be giving it up anytime soon to no damned foreigner.

Quote:

---

[stillakid] Laborers in general are getting hard to find.

---

Nonsense. What is getting hard to find are people willing to do the labor. In general, there is plenty of work here, and anyone who wants a job can find one. All they need is the willpower to spend twelve hours a day in a slaughterhouse, or otherwise engaged. Immigrants don’t take those jobs because there aren’t Americans who can’t do it, there just aren’t any Americans who will do it.

Corporate interests are in much the same boat. Recently a coworker attended a speech by the CEO of (oddly enough) Pure Fishing. He discussed how their entire manufacturing is moving to China in very short order. He can have Chinese “laborers” (note: code for 14-year-old girls chained to sweatshop floor pulling 19 hour workdays) casting and assembling crankbaits, ship them over here by the tanker-load, and end up with about a 2/3 reduction in manufacturing cost. His job is to act in the best interest of his company and shareholders; try convincing him that his investors and backers should shoulder the burden of onshore labor.

If Americans worked for as little, he would save all of that transportation cost; but… (see above).

Quote:

---

[gundez] A LOT OF THE SKILLED JOBS WE ARE LOSING OVER SEAS IS BECAUSE WE ARE OVERPRICED HERE. THE REASON BEING IS OVER SEAS THEIR GOVERMENTS SUBSIDIZE THEIR TRAINING PROGRAMS.

---

Pure, unadulterated crap.

U.S. Companies train them. It’s not just low-tech manufacturing jobs either… Where are the largest ASIC foundaries in the world being built right now??? Singapore… India… SE Asia… Why invest in a $150M facility in a place where labor costs will put you out of business the day you open the doors?

Quote:

---

[whiskerkev] I am afraid if we cease to make things in this country that we will go the way of the roman empire.

---

The end result may be the same, but the mechanism will not. Rome died because even with their despotic means of dealing with dissent (6000 rebels crucified and left to rot along the highway), they geographically overextended and could not maintain control. The manifest destiny foolishness of the early to mid 19th century is over; we are not an imperial power. Although an argument could be made that expansion through use of puppet regimes throughout the world qualifies as imperialism, the toppling of any or all of them cannot directly affect an implosion of our own government here at home.

Quote:

---

a skilled tradesman making something from a bit of nothing

---

A skill reserved to the Almighty (that’s a joke guys… lighten up).

Quote:

---

[JC] Do you guys remember nothing about Germany in the 20’s?

---

Economy shattered due to the harsh allied post-war reconstruction policies… That was back in the day when the spoils truly went to the victors, and the vanquished were made to pay.

Quote:

---

[JC] The US in the 30’s?

---

I’m not an economist, but my understanding is that the collapse of the US in the 30’s was essentially an adjustment as the country made it’s final transition from an agrarian economy to an industrial. The question is, can we also abandon our industrial base and move forward into whatever is next (service??); and what sort of adjustments are going to punish us in the making of the next economic base?

There’s no way to know without a (working) crystal ball. One important distinction to make is that agriculturual production remained here, it simply required less labor and it took industry a period of time to come up with something for the excess laborers to do.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the consumerism and selfishness exhibited by 99% of the people we deal with everyday. Makes me wonder if any of those people had mammas to beat them upside the head until their priorities fell into place. I suppose I’d better not touch on the 4,000 kids per day killed in this country for the sake of materialism and convenience.

Quote:

---

[gundez] Well there is no doubt about the good life in America. You guys are experiencing that every weekend on the St.Croix or Pepin when those big cruisers come buy.

---

If you’re out on Pepin or the Croix, or even not chained to a sweatshop floor, you’re already experiencing it… no need for big cruisers.

Quote:

---

[SteveP] it is only a matter of time before IBM will be out of the manufacturing business

---

IBM is one of the most rapidly expanding semiconductor manufacturers on the planet. They set the standards for technology development in silicon wafer fab, and are building (or may have already built… not sure when it’s done) the most high tech fab facilities on the planet. They will be manufacturing IC’s when we’re all dead and gone.

Unfortunately, as stated above, they are being built overseas.

riverwino, if you’re seriously worried about this, think about a profession that cannot be exported. Doctors, nurses, police detectives, contractors (although the housing market essentially follows employment indices) and other well-paid “hands on” professionals who are necessary for the basic functions of society will never be outsourced.

Economic darwinism is essentially a fact of life here. We should all consider ourselves fortunate that when we fall on hard times (and everyone does), we live in a (still clinging to) Christian nation where at least consideration is taken to care for all.

Nice post Gianni! Congrats on entertaining us with your “devilship”. Also, thanks for clarifying what I was really saying. When I said “laborers”, I was referring to Americans that are willing (or unwilling, rather) to do the job. I just wasn’t as crystal clear as you were.

You might be the devil, but it’s good to have you around here!