Duane Chapman, a national expert on the Asian carp

  • Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1283765

    Common belief is the catfish farmers brought the carp over from China. Not totally true. The government was involve with the imports.

    Both the Bighead and the Silver were introduced in the early ’70s. Not by flooding but by carelessness soon after importing them.

    The furthest up stream a Silver has been found is L&D #5 and Mr. Chapman admitted it could have been placed there. No one knows for certain.

    Usually the Bighead invade an area then the Silver follow. The Silvers will dominate the area soon after arriving “in large numbers” which is what it takes for them to spawn successfully.

    It takes 26 river miles (minimum) for them to successfully spawn. There’s also a need for backwaters at the end of those miles. No flood plan lake (backwaters) no spawning can happen.

    Northern Pike, Dog Fish and Flatheads are known predators. They found an 11″ Silver in the gullet of a flathead. (just another reason to lower the WI limit of flatheads and close the winter dormant season)

    The romantic quote from Jurassic Park- “Life will find a way”
    If that was true, we wouldn’t have extinct species.

    Ecology and Physical Science is Critical in slowing and possibly stopping these fish.

    The only question that was read to the panel of mine (yours) was “Is there any place these fish have been 100% stopped?”

    The answer I heard was “yes and no”. They haven’t been stopped from physically moving, but they have been stopped reproducing.

    I couldn’t ask a follow up question because they weren’t taking verbal questions from the audience.

    What species will be impacted the most?

    Paddlefish, Large Mouth Buffalo and Gizzard Shad
    Sunfish and catfish will be effected the least.

    I was surprised at the attendance. A good mixture of age groups as well.

    The self proclaimed “recovering attorney” for the stopcarp.org group said what was clearly evident. “I don’t know much about carp, but I’m hear to help stop them from destroying our lakes and rivers”. Close the locks before it’s too late!!

    Oh, the point on the stopcarp.org website that says 10 females and as few as 10 males = a new population? That was debunked on stage by Mr. Chapman. “It takes large numbers of fish to start new populations”.

    Fighting this battle at the leading edge is not in MN. It’s in Southern Iowa. But we can tell the general population they’ve been found just South of the Twin Cities without telling the true story. No spawning populations.

    Stopcarp.org is more of a threat to the hunters and fishermen…the sportsmen of MN/WI then any of the Asian Carp that were discussed tonight.

    That’s my take on tonight’s lecture and I’m sticking to it.

    Have at it Buzz.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1199286

    Great job Brian! Great to hear that there are some educated people in the know.

    How to educate the public, is the real question. The local media I suspect would want nothing to do with it.

    Why wast a good crisis?

    Buzz
    Minneapolis MN
    Posts: 1814
    #1199292

    BK Thanks for the summary. The Midwest Governors AIS conference report was released this morning REPORT

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1199293

    It is nice to know not everyone who is looking at the situation who actually have input into it isn’t advocating the sky is falling.

    Good work Brian in bringing this back.

    So the lady with stopthecarp, what is her beef with lock and dams?

    mossydan
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Posts: 7727
    #1199295

    Got a question for you Brian. Beings their filter feeders and large numbers haven’t been found in northern waters and beings the waters are clearer and with less algae in the Mississippi, is this slowing down their reproducing or reproducing at all? Id like to know how much algae it takes for them to survive. I know there’s some lakes that have alot of algae but the Mississippi river is relatively clear, has this got anything to do with it.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1199298

    Quote:


    Got a question for you Brian. Beings their filter feeders and large numbers haven’t been found in northern waters and beings the waters are clearer and with less algae in the Mississippi, is this slowing down their reproducing or reproducing at all? Id like to know how much algae it takes for them to survive. I know there’s some lakes that have alot of algae but the Mississippi river is relatively clear, has this got anything to do with it.


    Mossy, the Big Head and the Silver Carp are filter feeder that feed on zoo-plankton and not algae. I don’t have my notes here, but one of the side effects of this two fish “in massive numbers” is more algae.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1199300

    Quote:


    So the lady with stopthecarp, what is her beef with lock and dams?


    Besides being paid to lobby the folks in government? The only thing I could make out of her ramblings was that the AC can swim through the locks.

    Mr. Chapman noted that AC don’t like boats and will stay clear of them (when locking through) but they have gone through locks in the past it’s believed.

    The MN DNR is working on tracking fish movement through L&D #2 now by using transmitters and receivers. One of my questions that didn’t get answered was their finding so far.

    The Coon Rapids Dam is being modified to make it harder for (any) fish to get around it. Closing the SAF and Ford Dam, will do little (if they come). IMHO.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1199303

    Paid by the McKnight Foundation? Seems like they deserve a few emails. I was going to send one yesterday.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1199309

    I’m not sure who is funding StopCarp.org. The “survey” was funded by the McKnight Foundation.

    They were ripped off.

    Brian Hoffies
    Land of 10,000 taxes, potholes & the politically correct.
    Posts: 6843
    #1199312

    Quote:


    I’m not sure who is funding StopCarp.org. The “survey” was funded by the McKnight Foundation.

    They were ripped off.


    I have it from generally reliable sources that since Gardy received a contract extension he funded both the survey and the web site.

    Were any ACTUAL FACTS injected in the meeting? Or was it just information designed to:

    1) Scare the general public, whom most of which couldn’t locate either the St. Croix or Mississippi river with a map.

    2) Designed to provide jobs and funding to fight what thus far is a unproven theory.

    Buzz, thank you for the link. It’s reassuring to know that Governor Dayton, the guy who can’t get a funding plan for a stadium that will work, will be on a commission / panel to stop AIS. I’ll sleep better tonight knowing that.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1199314

    From Brian’s recap above, this Chapman guy actually sounds reasonable.

    jeff_huberty
    Inactive
    Posts: 4941
    #1199326

    I still do not see or understand the lets just do nothing approach.

    What did they recomend as a course of action?

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1199327

    Quote:


    From Brian’s recap above, this Chapman guy actually sounds reasonable.


    Oh! Thanks Buzz. I missed that report.

    Everyone was reasonable with the exception of the rep for stopcarp.org.

    When a guy…an EXPERT says “Even if you do nothing, there is hope”. Meaning they may not reproduce here… and

    “The sky is not falling”

    “The closest Pool is 18 where there MAY BE some natural reproduction”

    I’m with him.

    There were many questions I wanted to ask, but the panel only had a 1/2 hour to take them.

    haasjj
    Cordova, IL
    Posts: 373
    #1199334

    Quote:


    Quote:


    Got a question for you Brian. Beings their filter feeders and large numbers haven’t been found in northern waters and beings the waters are clearer and with less algae in the Mississippi, is this slowing down their reproducing or reproducing at all? Id like to know how much algae it takes for them to survive. I know there’s some lakes that have alot of algae but the Mississippi river is relatively clear, has this got anything to do with it.


    Mossy, the Big Head and the Silver Carp are filter feeder that feed on zoo-plankton and not algae. I don’t have my notes here, but one of the side effects of this two fish “in massive numbers” is more algae.


    That’s correct. Those two carp species eat zooplankton, phytoplankton, and other stuff down to 5 microns in size if I remember correctly (silvers can at least, check out there sponge-like gill rakers). Zooplankton are the primary predator on planktonic algae. Zooplankton are also the primary forage base for ichthyoplankton, which are fish that are only weeks old. Another issue is if there aren’t enough planktonic algae available to absorb the nutrient loads, then you get a lot of filamentous algae, like what you see in farm ponds, golf course ponds, certain backwaters with shoreline development, etc…

    Those 2 species need specific criteria to reproduce such as a long uninterupted length of river and a warm flood pulse. Those are two of the biggest factors. You’ll have a hard time stopping adults from traveling through the dams, but reproduction is the key factor. One concern MN may have though is the MN river, long flowing warm, fertile river….that could be an issue.

    The problem is just a couple pools below me here on P14, but we’ve yet to document reproduction here. If we do, I’ll let you know.

    Just my 2 cents.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22456
    #1199335

    Doing “something” for the sake of being able to say your “doing something” should never be considered a sound practice….

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1199336

    Quote:


    I still do not see or understand the lets just do nothing approach.

    What did they recomend as a course of action?


    Speaking of which, I think we really need to build a barrier to protect us from Tsunamis.

    Now do you understand? Ok, my quip is a bit over the top.

    For me, I have to take in everything when evaluating it. Closing the lock would affect people and it may not affect me, but I like to try and put myself in their shoes.

    I’d fight against them wanting to group Koi in with Asian carp making it illegal to keep them or requiring all Koi ponds be cemented.

    Buzz
    Minneapolis MN
    Posts: 1814
    #1199337

    BK, FYI from Stop Carp Coalition

    Dr. Chapman Lecture: There was a great crowd last night for the lecture. Others feel free to share any thoughts about his talk, but overall I felt his lecture reinforced our current work. It’s clear there is a lot we don’t know about Asian carp, but he wrapped up his talk saying there was still hope and he felt pretty confident we’d identify some kind of biological solution, only it would take several years. So our work to buy us time, given we know they are here, is critical. His presentation included some great slides that could be useful graphics, including one that demonstrates during high water, even when the locks are closed, they can make it past dams #18 on up until they reach USAF.

    Next Meeting: We are gathering next Tuesday. October 15th, 9-11:30 a.m. at MEP, 546 Rice Street, St. Paul. We hope to come away with a few things from that meeting. 1) We need to update our plan, which was developed in Jan. 2013, with more of a focus on downstream efforts. Please contact me directly if you need a copy of the old plan. Nick was going to send us a list of things we can react to at the meeting. 2) We also need to revisit our coalition communication and structure, including our committees. We developed several committees to take charge of aspects of the work, including federal, state, agency, media, etc., but those have not been working as they should. Other ideas for our meeting?

    Thanks!

    Best,
    Chris

    Christine R. Goepfert
    Upper Midwest Program Manager
    National Parks Conservation Association
    546 Rice Street, Suite 100
    St. Paul, MN 55103
    (612) 270-8564 (office)
    (651) 290-0167 (fax)
    [email protected]

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1199338

    I liked my slant better.

    Thanks Buzz.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1199340

    Quote:


    One concern MN may have though is the MN river, long flowing warm, fertile river….that could be an issue.


    That is my concern as well. I don’t think they would be an issue near the metro, but they could bypass that stretch and establish themselves upstream. I am just basing that on what I have observed and what I have heard from other people.

    I wonder if anyone has ever done a study on zooplankton levels and other factors on say the Illinois river where the silver carp are bad and compare them to similar water in the area where is appears the Silver carp are having a hard time establishing themselves. There has to be a study out there on that. It would be nice if they could identify waters that are really at risk first instead of just basing it on what waterways are connected to areas where they are established.

    Look at the channel cats on the Red from F/M to Lockport. You’d think walleye guys would be terrified of giant channels moving into LOWs. And no one not in the know would expect a Canadian river to hold some of the largest channels in North America, yet the conditions up there are just right apparently.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1199343

    I can’t recall the name of the model the want (and need) to do. It includes a host of information including water temp/flow/substrate/bank cover and much more.

    The first model they used way back when was using water temp only. I suggested there would be carp in the Rocky Mountains.

    The second model they had (and I don’t recall what that was based on showed AC lower then we know they are. MO was the main area.

    I’ll have to check my notes, but Mr. Chapman admitted we aren’t very good at predictions and this new model using much more data will give us a better understanding on where they can

    Arrive
    Live
    Reproduce (in numbers)

    PS attending one lecture does not an expert make.

    Buzz
    Minneapolis MN
    Posts: 1814
    #1199346

    PS attending one lecture does not an expert make.

    You’re right it might take more to have a big picture view, but your showing interest as an angler and this is exactly what is needed.

    Buzz

    mudneck_joe
    SE MN
    Posts: 409
    #1199347

    “Life would find a way. If that were true we would not have extinct species.”

    As you know BK some species have been alive for millions of years and are not extinct. It is these species that have learned and adapted characteristics to out compete other species.

    Invasive species are called invasive species because they are creatures that can out complete other species due to adaptations that give them an advantage.

    desperado
    Posts: 3010
    #1199348

    me thinks ms goepfert may be a little dizzy from all that spin

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1199353

    Quote:


    “Life would find a way. If that were true we would not have extinct species.”

    As you know BK some species have been alive for millions of years and are not extinct. It is these species that have learned and adapted characteristics to out compete other species.

    Invasive species are called invasive species because they are creatures that can out complete other species due to adaptations that give them an advantage.


    Mud, an invasive doesn’t have to “adapt to out compete” if they are transplanted/moved by people/governments/vessels…Right?

    Either way, it was a quote from the lecture.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1199355

    Quote:


    You’re right it might take more to have a big picture view, but your showing interest as an angler and this is exactly what is needed.

    Buzz


    You’re such a schmoozer Buzz.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1199356

    PS I still haven’t heard of a good reason to close the locks.

    mplspug
    Palmetto, Florida
    Posts: 25026
    #1199360

    Quote:


    It is these species that have learned and adapted characteristics to out compete other species.



    Technically, very few species can learn and adapt. Man being the best one at it. Maybe some other primates.

    That is unless by adapt you mean evolve or change through genetic mutations.

    I’m just saying…

    Buzz
    Minneapolis MN
    Posts: 1814
    #1199381

    Quote:


    Quote:


    You’re right it might take more to have a big picture view, but your showing interest as an angler and this is exactly what is needed.
    Buzz



    You’re such a schmoozer Buzz.


    99% of my agenda is to bring the anglers voices to the conversations that will ultimately affect us. Whether or not I agree or disagree, we need more voices at the table.

    Brian Klawitter
    Keymaster
    Minnesota/Wisconsin Mississippi River
    Posts: 59992
    #1199384

    And THAT we agree on…well, that and your tie dyed socks.

    lenny_jamison
    Bay City , WI
    Posts: 4001
    #1199415

    Did anyone videotape the meeting? I’d like to see it.

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