Lakefront Property Myths Busted

  • biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1281166

    I found this on the DNR website and found a few of these suprising contrary to popular belief. It seems that property owners do own some of the lake bed. They own the lake bed up to the navigable depth. The state owns all lake bed in navagable depths.

    I thought I would post that as it typically brings up some pretty heated arguments.
    http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/waters/watermgmt_section/pwpermits/waterlaws.html

    Quote:


    Water law basics

    From: Questions and Answers about Water Laws in Minnesota

    Who owns the bed of a lake, marsh, or stream?

    When a water basin or watercourse is “navigable” under the federal test, the State of Minnesota owns the bed below the natural ordinary low water level (see: Lamprey v. State, 52 Minn. 1981, 53 NW 1139 [1893]; and United States v. Holt State Bank, 270 U.S. 49 [1926]). The federal test used for navigability is: “when they are used, or are susceptible of being used, in their natural and ordinary condition, as highways for commerce, over which trade or travel are or may be conducted” (see: State v. Longyear Holding Co. 224 Minn 451, 29 NW 2d 657 [1947]). If a court has found that a lake is non-navigable and meandered, the shoreland owners own the bed of a lake in severalty (see: Schmidt v. Marschel., 211 Minn 543, NW 2d 121 [1942]). If a stream is non-navigable but has been meandered, the shoreland owners own to the thread (centerline) of the stream. If a lake or stream is non-navigable and not meandered, ownership of the bed is as indicated on individual property deeds.

    Also see: Pardon Me Myth! – Who Owns the Lake Bed?

    What are riparian rights?

    Riparian rights are property rights arising from owning shoreland. They include the right to wharf out to a navigable depth; to take water for domestic and agricultural purposes; to use land added by accretion or exposed by reliction; to take ice; to fish, boat, hunt, swim; to such other uses as water bodies are normally put (see: Sanborn v. People’s Ice Co. 82 Minn 43, 84 NW 641 [1900] and Lamprey v. State, 52 Minn 181, 53 NW 1139 [1883]). The riparian owner has the right to make use of the lake over its entire surface (see: Johnson v. Seifert 257 Minn 159, 100 NW 2d 689 [1960]).

    What are riparian duties?

    It is the duty of the riparian owners to exercise their rights reasonably, so as not to unreasonably interfere with the riparian rights of others (see: Petraborg v. Zontelli, 217 Minn 536, 15 NW 2d 174 [1944]). They cannot dike off and drain, or fence off, their part of the waterbody (see: Johnson v. Seifert). It is a public nuisance and a misdemeanor to “interfere with, obstruct, or render dangerous for passage waters used by the public” (see: Public Nuisance Law, Minnesota Statute 609.74).

    What are public rights?

    Where the public is a riparian landowner, such as a public road abutting the water or at a public access, the public has riparian rights (see: Flynn v. Beisel, 257 Minn. 531, 102 N.W .2d 284 [1960].).

    Additional information

    Minnesota case law has established that a public road abutting a body of water gives the public riparian rights to the water. Riparian rights exist whether or not the lake is navigable or public and regardless of who owns the bed. Riparians are entitled to exercise their rights over the entire surface of the lake. One riparian cannot keep others from using all of the lake. Where access to a “wetland” is available from a public road, Minnesota Statutes Section 103G.235 provides the following: “In order to protect the public health or safety, local units of government may establish by ordinance restrictions upon public access to any wetlands from city, county or township roads which abut wetlands.” In all other cases (i.e., state or federal roads abutting “wetlands” or any public road abutting a “public water”), the public has the riparian right of access.

    Trespassing on private property

    The belief that the state owns a strip of land around all Minnesota lakes for public use is absolutely false. Riparian property (property abutting a lake, river, or wetland) is either privately or publicly owned. The general public can access water bodies or watercourses via public property, but not through private property. Individuals entering private property without permission from the landowner are trespassing and may be prosecuted under the state trespass laws. It is illegal to trespass on private property in order to gain access to a water body or watercourse without first obtaining the verbal or written permission from a landowner.


    tbrooks11
    Posts: 605
    #1151626

    I had a stir up with a few lake front owners this summer. Talked to 3 different DNR officers and all agreed that any part of any body of water is public, and anyone is free to be there.

    My buddies and I were shore fishing at Lake Pepin, minding our own business and standing knee deep in the water without laying a foot on dry land (their property). They went nuts and said we were on their property so we contacted the DNR officers. All of the disagreed with your post.

    Jesse Krook
    Y.M.H.
    Posts: 6403
    #1151638

    So if you have a jon boat or a canoe what’s the navigable depth, about 6-8″ ? So that means they own less than 6″ of water and their dock is on my public waterway.

    big_g
    Isle, MN
    Posts: 22554
    #1151639

    Sounds like you were “navigating” just fine

    1hl&sinker
    On the St.Croix
    Posts: 2501
    #1151640

    Quote:


    I had a stir up with a few lake front owners this summer. Talked to 3 different DNR officers and all agreed that any part of any body of water is public, and anyone is free to be there.

    My buddies and I were shore fishing at Lake Pepin, minding our own business and standing knee deep in the water without laying a foot on dry land (their property). They went nuts and said we were on their property so we contacted the DNR officers. All of the disagreed with your post.


    Key word here is “navigable” peppin is a navigable body of water.

    I believe you can stand on the shoreline just as long as your under the natural high water mark.

    TheFamousGrouse
    St. Paul, MN
    Posts: 11852
    #1151641

    Quote:


    I found this on the DNR website and found a few of these suprising contrary to popular belief. It seems that property owners do own some of the lake bed. They own the lake bed up to the navigable depth. The state owns all lake bed in navagable depths.


    Where do you read that the lakeshore property owners “own the lakebed up to the navigable depth”?

    I see the portion that gives them the rights of access by building a warf to that navigable depth: “Riparian rights are property rights arising from owning shoreland. They include the right to wharf out to a navigable depth…”

    But I don’t see where you’re finding that it says that they “own” the lakebed to navigable depth.

    Also, what I’ve found that many lakeshore property owners conviently choose to ignore is their legal obligations:

    It is the duty of the riparian owners to exercise their rights reasonably, <b>so as not to unreasonably interfere with the riparian rights of others </b> (see: Petraborg v. Zontelli, 217 Minn 536, 15 NW 2d 174 [1944]). They cannot dike off and drain, or fence off, their part of the waterbody (see: Johnson v. Seifert). It is a public nuisance and a misdemeanor to “interfere with, obstruct, or render dangerous for passage waters used by the public” (see: Public Nuisance Law, Minnesota Statute 609.74).

    I think the DNR and state enforcement agencies need to be much more aggressive in terms of prosecuting lakeshore owners who unreasonably interfear with the rights of others. Erecting massive private marians, ripping up weedbedds and other auqatic structure, and so forth all need to be much more aggressively prosecuted.

    Grouse

    briansmude
    Posts: 184
    #1151656

    I have a couple of questions about this, first if I wade fish along shore can I crawl over someone’s dock to continue along shore as long as I stay in the water. Secondly I have a large duck pond behind my property and I was told wetland deliniation is high water mark on this lake. My question is if wetland line goes into my property can cross the bog to access the lake.

    desperado
    Posts: 3010
    #1151664

    yes, you can step (or climb) from the water onto any portion of a dock that is above the surface of public water.

    a lot of dock owners aren’t gonna like this, but it’s legal to step out of a boat onto the dock and stand there too

    no different than climbing into a deerstand that’s on public land

    Chuck Melcher
    SE Wisconsin, Racine County
    Posts: 1966
    #1151670

    Sure about that standing on someone’s dock thing? I understand it is still private property, just like your boat floating on the water is your property, and someone can’t just climb in and have fun.

    average-joe
    Hudson, WI
    Posts: 2376
    #1151672

    Quote:


    Sure about that standing on someone’s dock thing? I understand it is still private property, just like your boat floating on the water is your property, and someone can’t just climb in and have fun.


    Yeah, wouldn’t that be called Piracy

    sgt._rock
    Rochester, MN
    Posts: 2517
    #1151673

    If the water is on the border with WI and the dock is really long how many lines can I fish with off the end of it????

    1hl&sinker
    On the St.Croix
    Posts: 2501
    #1151675

    Quote:


    If the water is on the border with WI and the dock is really long how many lines can I fish with off the end of it????


    Unattended or attended?

    desperado
    Posts: 3010
    #1151677

    CG, that’s the case in MN
    who knows how WI handles it, most of WI is a mystery to me

    Chuck Melcher
    SE Wisconsin, Racine County
    Posts: 1966
    #1151679

    LOL… I live here and don’t get it.

    desperado
    Posts: 3010
    #1151680

    Quote:


    Quote:


    My buddies and I were shore fishing at Lake Pepin, minding our own business and standing knee deep in the water without laying a foot on dry land (their property). They went nuts and said we were on their property so we contacted the DNR officers. Talked to 3 different DNR officers and all agreed that any part of any body of water is public, and anyone is free to be there.



    Key word here is “navigable”
    peppin is a navigable body of water.

    I believe you can stand on the shoreline just as long as your under the natural high water mark.


    Key word here is “navigable”
    peppin is a navigable body of water.

    so is just about every puddle in the state according to where the Coast Guard thinks they ought to have jurisdiction

    bck
    Big Stone Lake Sd
    Posts: 257
    #1151762

    Quote:


    yes, you can step (or climb) from the water onto any portion of a dock that is above the surface of public water.

    a lot of dock owners aren’t gonna like this, but it’s legal to step out of a boat onto the dock and stand there too

    no different than climbing into a deerstand that’s on public land


    Incorrect. A dock is private property just like a boat.

    biggill
    East Bethel, MN
    Posts: 11321
    #1151764

    I actually misinterpreted it. They do not own up to the navigable depth. That only applies to an entire body of water that happens to be non navigable.

    But, they do own the lake bed above the low water mark.

    desperado
    Posts: 3010
    #1151793

    a boat on the lake is a licensed vehicle on public water . . . like a car is a licensed vehicle on a public road

    but docks and tree stands are not quite “just like” boats and cars

    yes the dock sections themselves are the owner’s property, just like a tree stand is still the owner’s property when it’s set up on public land;

    thus to take either of them home with you would still be theft

    BUT being on the portion of the dock that’s in the water is not “trespassing” any more so than climbing up into the tree stand while it’s on public land

    bzzsaw
    Hudson, Wi
    Posts: 3484
    #1151800

    Quote:


    BUT being on the portion of the dock that’s in the water is not “trespassing” any more so than climbing up into the tree stand while it’s on public land


    I’m not sure what your point is about wanting to cross someones dock? Whether it is trespassing or not, it would be appropriate to ask someone if you want to cross their dock to fish the shoreline past it (if that is your intent). Most people would appreciate you asking. If your intent is to fish all day off their dock or in front of their cabin and claim not to ever come out of the water on their property you will most likely wear out your welcome.

    PS. I would not climb into someone elses tree stand even if it were on public land (unless I had permission from the owner of the stand). I may hang my stand right next to it if they aren’t already there though.

    bck
    Big Stone Lake Sd
    Posts: 257
    #1151801

    I guess I cant speak for Minnesota but it is Criminal Trespass in SD and I think even if there is no law against it in Mn,to be on another persons dock is wrong,just plain dissrespectful. I think many lakeshore property owners are incorrect by having huge docks just as I think many fishermen are incorrect by thinking all property owners are bad. I happen to be both a fisherman and a property owner and if someone ask to use my dock to fish I have and will say yes. I think respect is the key from all parties.

    desperado
    Posts: 3010
    #1151804

    morally wrong … disrespectful … ya I’d agree in MOST cases; but in MN it is NOT “unlawful trespass”

    the one time when I think it’s not wrong is when wading and fishing in say knee deep to hip deep water
    then to climb over the dock where you best are able AND continue on your way is certainly reasonable
    much more reasonable than it would be for the property owner to expect the fisherman to SWIM out around the end of the dock

    bck
    Big Stone Lake Sd
    Posts: 257
    #1151806

    Quote:


    morally wrong … disrespectful … ya I’d agree in MOST cases; but in MN it is NOT “unlawful trespass”

    the one time when I think it’s not wrong is when wading and fishing in say knee deep to hip deep water
    then to climb over the dock where you best are able AND continue on your way is certainly reasonable
    much more reasonable than it would be for the property owner to expect the fisherman to SWIM out around the end of the dock


    I agree.

    desperado
    Posts: 3010
    #1151809

    If wading and someone is there in the yard, I certainly speak to them before “crossing” a dock. But if no one’s home, or everyone is inside; I’m not too intimidated to cross as quickly and unobtrusively as possible and be on my way

    buzz, my only point really is to know your rights if shoreline owners start getting owly when you’re even paddling or wading around their dock (yes to actually stand on their dock and fish is rude, and I wouldn’t think of doing so proactively just because it’s “not criminal” …. but if someone on shore gets “out-of-line rude” when I’m paddling or wading … well It’s still certainly best if they will listen to reason, BUUUUT if the only way they’ll ever believe me is to hear it from a CO or Sheriff’s deputy, then it’s good to know where ya stand IF it comes to that)

    tomhopkins
    waconia, mn
    Posts: 132
    #1151821

    From what I read when I did some research for wading rivers the law states that water is public even when it passes through private property. If conditions arise where a impassible structure ie deep water log dam dock etc blocks your safe path of travel, legally you may cross private property in the most direct path possible and while doing so may not fish or stop. It’s the same with a dock. You can climb over it if it obstructs a safe path but cannot use it or fish from it without permission.

    1hl&sinker
    On the St.Croix
    Posts: 2501
    #1151839

    Quote:


    I actually misinterpreted it. They do not own up to the navigable depth. That only applies to an entire body of water that happens to be non navigable.

    But, they do own the lake bed above the low water mark.


    Interesting how confusing things can get.

    I wonder what the difference between ordinary low water level and ordinary high water level?

    Ordinary High Water Level

    The Ordinary High Water Level (OHWL) is a term that many lake, wetland, and river property owners hear, but it is often misunderstood. The definition of OHWL from Minnesota Statutes is provided below. It is very important to contact your local DNR Waters area hydrologist for a correct OHWL determination before attempting to alter your shoreline.

    Minnesota Statutes 103G.005

    Subd. 14. Ordinary high water level. “Ordinary high water level” means the boundary of waterbasins, watercourses, public waters, and public waters wetlands, and:

    1 the ordinary high water level is an elevation delineating the highest water level that has been maintained for a sufficient period of time to leave evidence upon the landscape, commonly the point where the natural vegetation changes from predominantly aquatic to predominantly terrestrial;
    2 for watercourses, the ordinary high water level is the elevation of the top of the bank of the channel; and
    3 for reservoirs and flowages, the ordinary high water level is the operating elevation of the normal summer pool.

    clarence_chapman
    Hastings, MN Lake Isabel activist
    Posts: 1345
    #1151842

    Quote:


    It is very important to contact your local DNR Waters area hydrologist for a correct OHWL determination before attempting to alter your shoreline.


    Altering anything within 70 ft of a shoreline must be approved by the DNR. And also many times from the township or city you live in. Theyn often have codes you must follow.

    TimJones
    Lake Osakis,MN
    Posts: 241
    #1152159

    Quote:


    BUT being on the portion of the dock that’s in the water is not “trespassing” any more so than climbing up into the tree stand while it’s on public land



    Wrong! Private docks on public waters in the state of Minnesota are private property and using them without the owners permission is trespassing. Personally if you needed to use my dock for some reason I wouldn’t care if it was a valid reason. Heck, if you want to come fish off my dock with me, fine, I’d enjoy the company. I just want to make it clear that you need to understand the Water Laws before you start telling other people what they can do. Here is an interesting read.
    http://www.sportsmenbassmasters.com/dockrights.html

    Michael C. Winther
    Reedsburg, WI
    Posts: 1515
    #1152276

    as i read it, the rules are VERY different between MN and WI. and in WI there are even differences between lakes and flowing streams.

    look at the link provided at the start of this thread for details about MN.

    in MN “riparian rights” are defined as “normal use” such as swimming and putting in a dock out to navigable depth which is usually defined as out to 3′ deep water or the length of the dock-owner’s boat, whichever is longer. these rights are held by the owner of the shoreline.

    the public has those same riparian rights anywhere public land abuts the water, such as a road crossing a stream. they do not have those rights in front of private property shallower than “navigable depth.”

    our family in MN has shoreline property that includes both lakeshore and streamshore and a highway bridge crosses the stream. that bridge is a popular swimming spot, so understanding these things matters. people can access the water by the bridge, and use the water/shore around it for swimming and fishing, but only in the area around the public easement of the bridge – not further up the stream where those rights are reserved for the shoreline landowner. (but they could use a boat on the water’s surface anywhere they want to go.)

    in WI the public rights are more generous: you can use the bottom of the lake in front of private property, and you can use shoreline on “flowing” non-lake waters.

    http://learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/g3622.pdf

    the “navigable waters” rule is much more broadly defined as any water body than can be navigated by a small craft (canoe/kayak) at any time of the year. So, different than MN this would include small streams, even ones that might only be deep enough in the spring.

    There is no public right to access the shoreline of a lake, even to the high-water mark or whatever, but you CAN walk on the lakebed in the water adjacent to private property – keep your feet wet and you’re okay. you don’t have the right to touch shore to bypass obstructions such as a dock when it’s on a lake.

    A special WI law added that on flowing streams/rivers, the public can use exposed privately-owned shoreline for riparian purposes (fishing/boating/swimming), and the landowner can’t put up a fence or other obstruction to prevent it. If someone can publicly access a flowing water somewhere else, they can then put their feet down on the bottom or on shore (to bypass obstructions) in privately held sections.

    vger
    River Falls, WI
    Posts: 23
    #1152386

    There is a difference between what’s “right” and what’s legal. As a lake shore owner (that means I pay BIG taxes for the chunk of dirt) I want everyone to enjoy their time on the water, including ME (family). People come down the shore all the time fishing and boating and it’s nice to see them having a good time. That being said I’ve had strangers tie their boats to my dock ’cause my boat wasn’t tied to it or us my dock ’cause I wasn’t using it or start to have a picnic cause we weren’t there. Yes, enjoy, have a good time but use some very uncommon common sense. Stay off private property when ever possible and always try to get permission first. The thing I hear most is “well it’s not hurting anything”, but that’s not the point. It’s NOT yours is the point, that person is most likely paying hundreds of dollars every month in taxes just so they don’t have to share their “park” with you.

    jackie27
    Posts: 1
    #1177962

    I am a brand new lake property owner in Minnesota. Not much lakeshore but lakeshore it is. Only about 15 feet. I have read all of the posts and all of the DNR stuff I could find. My question is that I have a 109.75″ pontoon lift and 112″ between a tree and the neighbors dock. If we get it past the tree we are ok. It will still be a tight fit – about 120″ or between one neighbor’s lift and the other neighbors dock. The neighbors have enjoyed the space directly in front of our property since they moved in about 8 years ago. My Aunt owned the property for 25 years. Now they don’t think we should but a lift in because it will interfere with their pontoon. We just want to be able to enjoy the lake too. I don’t see where it would interfere but then I could very well be wrong.

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