Oklahoma Mother

Perfect end to a story

That put a smile on my face. Don’t mess with a mother and her child.

Wonder if she used #00 buck? Cause we all know that is what you need to kill someone.

HELL YEA he got what he had comming

Got what he had coming for sure.. Poor woman just loses her husband and 6 days later has to shoot someone trying to break into her home.. At least she knew how to use the gun, too many people out there that have access to em and don’t have the foggiest in how to use em.. Good job girl!!

Yea, I seen that and when I find out what happened to her hubby. Well tears started.

“There is nothing more dangerous than a mother with her baby”.

If he didn’t die instantly, I’ll bet he wished he had skipped her house. Justice was served and the court system didn’t get bogged down trying to protect a scumbag.

Way to go MOM! Do what ya gotta do and worry about the consequences later. Protect your family.

Glad she was calm enough to protect her baby and her self. I feel sorry for her that she will have carry the burden of killing another human being but when its comes down to you or them its an easy choice. Hope this does not screw her up in the head down the road.

Icing on the cake…

Quote:

---

However, prosecutors have charged his alleged accomplice, 29-year-old Dustin Louis Stewart, with first-degree murder. According to authorities, Stewart was with Martin but ran away from McKinley’s home after hearing the gunshots.

“When you’re engaged in a crime such as first-degree burglary and a death results from the events of that crime, you’re subject to prosecution for it,” Walters said.

---

-J.

Quote:

---

Got what he had coming for sure.. Poor woman just loses her husband and 6 days later has to shoot someone trying to break into her home.. At least she knew how to use the gun, too many people out there that have access to em and don’t have the foggiest in how to use em.. Good job girl!!

---

X2

Quote:

---

Icing on the cake…

Quote:

---

However, prosecutors have charged his alleged accomplice, 29-year-old Dustin Louis Stewart, with first-degree murder. According to authorities, Stewart was with Martin but ran away from McKinley’s home after hearing the gunshots.

“When you’re engaged in a crime such as first-degree burglary and a death results from the events of that crime, you’re subject to prosecution for it,” Walters said.

---

-J.

---

Something tells me that this girl is gonna be all right in life.

Read THAT article yesterday and is the reason why I posted the gun under your bed post. What ever happend to that thread anyways? Musta got outta hand last night while I was at religion class

Quote:

---

“There is nothing more dangerous than a mother with her baby”.

---

After seeing that video, it reminded me of this one, I laugh everytime I see it, especially the lady in the background, like “Stop it!” is really gonna make it stop…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=uBZ-4E7WKa0&NR=1

Would hate to be that dog..

Quote:

---

Wonder if she used #00 buck? Cause we all know that is what you need to kill someone.

---

I can guarantee she didn’t use birdshot to stop him that quickly.

Still waiting on those ballistics btw…. you can send them to me in a pm if you like, that way you don’t look like a complete fool in front of your “friends” here.

it’s a little more complex than that. IF it was 11g/cc lead pellets, then #00 would probably be your choice.

But, a lot of home defense people are going to 15g/cc pellets or even 18g/cc. In an equal mass, a ‘bird pellet’ would have as much weight and smaller diameter, hence penetrate better. Right thru doors on my tests. And will carry better downrange energy.

15g or 18g, then you are talking 7s and even 9s (yes, for us old farts that would seem counter intuitive, but it’s true; we just came from a ‘one metal world’…)

Several coyote, hog and small southern deer hunters are taking their animals with 18g/9s at ranges out to 50 yards. True.

ANY way that you do it this guy, whoever he was, is dead. Lead birdshot at 10ft is pretty much as lethal as #00. Not preferable (as #00 will carry killing energy out to 40 yards) but still lethal.

Feel free to translate into English…. What the heck is an 18g/9s? I don’t see many of those on the shelves at Cabelas…

Quote:

---

it’s a little more complex than that. IF it was 11g/cc lead pellets, then #00 would probably be your choice.

But, a lot of home defense people are going to 15g/cc pellets or even 18g/cc. In an equal mass, a ‘bird pellet’ would have as much weight and smaller diameter, hence penetrate better. Right thru doors on my tests. And will carry better downrange energy.

15g or 18g, then you are talking 7s and even 9s (yes, for us old farts that would seem counter intuitive, but it’s true; we just came from a ‘one metal world’…)

Several coyote, hog and small southern deer hunters are taking their animals with 18g/9s at ranges out to 50 yards. True.

ANY way that you do it this guy, whoever he was, is dead. Lead birdshot at 10ft is pretty much as lethal as #00. Not preferable (as #00 will carry killing energy out to 40 yards) but still lethatl.

---

Sorry Stu, ballistics gel tests prove all of your “theories” wrong. #4 Buck is the minimum recommended round for home defense.

before we start p***ing on each other, i forgot to mention that the metal had to be TUNGSTEN. Me bad…

i’ve also got 200gal of gelatin here if you want to do some sidebyside clinicals. i would welcome your company. it gets boring alone.
Follow the shooting/reloading forum on ‘fuge and look back at hagwlips stuff. he’s been taking the lead on this for the last 18 months or so.
Greater density = equal weightlower frontal friction and back vacuum and

Sounds like the dude is dead either way… Love the fact that they are charging the accomplice with his unfortunate timely death

Quote:

---

before we start p***ing on each other, i forgot to mention that the metal had to be TUNGSTEN. Me bad…

i’ve also got 200gal of gelatin here if you want to do some sidebyside clinicals. i would welcome your company. it gets boring alone.
Follow the shooting/reloading forum on ‘fuge and look back at hagwlips stuff. he’s been taking the lead on this for the last 18 months or so.
Greater density = equal weightlower frontal friction and back vacuum and

---

here you go…

Tungsten T shot ballistics (which is larger than BBB)
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Hevi%20Shot%2012%20gauge%20Tungsten%20T%20buck.pdf

LEO 12 GA 00 buckshot
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal%2012%20gauge%2000%20buckshot%20FLITECONTROL%20performance%20summary%2023MAR11.pdf

Federal Power-Shok #4 Buckshot
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge%20number%20four%20buckshot.pdf

12 GA Remington Express 2 3/4″ 00 Buckshot
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page541.htm

you can look those studies, and then make your opinion on whether BBB BIRDSHOT is equivalent to a load of buckshot.

and let me state something too Stu – its not that BBB won’t work for home defense, but it is not your best choice.

If you are choosing to prep a weapon to STOP a threat, then why not use a more effective round, such as buckshot?

That is where my argument is coming from.

If I have to shoot someone in my home, who is coming at me or my family to cause harm, I want the threat to be stopped immediately. I don’t want to have the possibility of having to put a second shot in them to stop them. As I may not get the opportunity to get that second shot off.

In a pinch, any weapon can and will work for defense, but if you are preparing something strictly for that purpose, do it “right” the first time. Because odds are, you won’t get a second chance.

just my $.02…

i don’t disagree in any manner.

here you go…

Tungsten T shot ballistics (which is larger than BBB)
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Hevi%20Shot%2012%20gauge%20Tungsten%20T%20buck.pdf

LEO 12 GA 00 buckshot
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal%2012%20gauge%2000%20buckshot%20FLITECONTROL%20performance%20summary%2023MAR11.pdf

Federal Power-Shok #4 Buckshot
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge%20number%20four%20buckshot.pdf

12 GA Remington Express 2 3/4″ 00 Buckshot
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page541.htm

you can look those studies, and then make your opinion on whether BBB BIRDSHOT is equivalent to a load of buckshot.

---

Esentially we are looking for the highest Energy Density (ED) in the smallest diameter pellet (which will give the greatest penetration.

Given equal mass and hardness, a pellet of 18g/cc will penetrate farther than a pellet of 11g/cc as the lighter material will be larger in diameter and hence have more frontal friction and back vacuum.

I will read the citations later today or tonite and comment appropriately, but simple Physics101 dictates here.

Until then I did dig out the url for the discussion on the Shooting and Reloading Forum of the Refuge:

http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/showthread.php?t=869155&highlight=tungsten

pretty much covered the question. I notice that my tone was a bit snippy in that thread. Sorry.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

here you go…

Tungsten T shot ballistics (which is larger than BBB)

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Hevi%20Shot%2012%20gauge%20Tungsten%20T%20buck.pdf

LEO 12 GA 00 buckshot

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal%2012%20gauge%2000%20buckshot%20FLITECONTROL%20performance%20summary%2023MAR11.pdf

Federal Power-Shok #4 Buckshot

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge%20number%20four%20buckshot.pdf

12 GA Remington Express 2 3/4″ 00 Buckshot

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page541.htm

you can look those studies, and then make your opinion on whether BBB BIRDSHOT is equivalent to a load of buckshot.

---

Esentially we are looking for the highest Energy Density (ED) in the smallest diameter pellet (which will give the greatest penetration.

Given equal mass and hardness, a pellet of 18g/cc will penetrate farther than a pellet of 11g/cc as the lighter material will be larger in diameter and hence have more frontal friction and back vacuum.

I will read the citations later today or tonite and comment appropriately, but simple Physics101 dictates here.

Until then I did dig out the url for the discussion on the Shooting and Reloading Forum of the Refuge:

http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/showthread.php?t=869155&highlight=tungsten

pretty much covered the question. I notice that my tone was a bit snippy in that thread. Sorry.

---

the link provides peoples “opinions” and “theories”. I do not see any data, with ballistics gel to back it up.

which I provided for my “opinion”…

and also, of course a higher density pellet will penetrate more. but lets compare BBB to 00 Buck. if they are both say 1 1/2 oz loads, the 00 Buck has less pellets, therefore each pellet is heavier and will carry more downrange energy.

I still cannot fathom how you think a small light birdshot load will compare to 00 Buck. the reason they can get the “weights” equal is because there is 4 times as many pellets in the round.

I agree, it is needed and i will check with Hawglips to see what he has on file over the weekend.

Working with 15g/cc and 18g/cc is pretty new for everyone. Almost all the study is on 11 (lead), 12 (hevishot) and 7.8 (steel) and a few of the other mixes. Little has been done on 15 & 18 as it patterns so tightly that it’s not usable by the average shooter below 40 yards with special loading, BUT makes a SUPERIOR self defense material.

Quote:

---

I agree, it is needed and i will check with Hawglips to see what he has on file over the weekend.

Working with 15g/cc and 18g/cc is pretty new for everyone. Almost all the study is on 11 (lead), 12 (hevishot) and 7.8 (steel) and a few of the other mixes. Little has been done on 15 & 18 as it patterns so tightly that it’s not usable by the average shooter below 40 yards with special loading, BUT makes a SUPERIOR self defense material.

---

Ok, so you are making your argument with special handloads versus OTC ammo that 99% of people will purchase.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Quote:

---

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker’s body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester’s 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

---

again, an OTC or even a hand loaded round of BBB hevi-shot, will in NO WAY compare to buckshot. Period.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm

Quote:

---

If you are forced to use a shotgun for personal defense, you certainly need it to work and work well. There is a huge body of reliable information established by the F.B.I., Duncan MacPherson, and perhaps most notably of all—Dr. Martin Fackler. According to Fackler-IWBA, rapid incapacitation is a function of damaging or destroying tissues that are critical to an attacker’s immediate survival. To reliably accomplish this task, the bullet should be capable of penetrating deeply enough to reach and pass through vital structures in the body from any angular aspect. This capability is called adequate penetration.

Fackler-IWBA recommends a minimum of 12 inches of penetration. This 12 inch minimum penetration performance guideline is meant to ensure that the bullet has adequate penetration potential to reach and disrupt vital organs. The 12 inch standard is the prevailing barometer used by the F.B.I., Dr. Fackler, and other reputable sources. Anything less than 12 inches is insufficient and inadequate. Not understanding this has already cost too many people their lives. Bird shot is not an acceptable self-defense shotshell round. To believe that it is could get you killed, and that has been the sad outcome in too many incidents. The appropriate value for minimum penetration depth has generally been assumed to be 12 inches ever since the first FBI wound ballistics meeting in 1987.

---